In the process of having a conservatory built, the builders digging
out the base have identified that the rainwater pipe to the soakaway
ends in an area that is going to be concreted over. This will then
(apparently, I'm none too familiar with this stuff) result in a new
soakaway having to be dug further down the garden, and the pipework
rerouted into it around the conservatory.

My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
anticipated when the project was specified, or are they likely to want
to charge me extra for it (they've said nothing yet but its only been
discovered this morning, so I'm trying to get some info for when they
do, as I expect, try to charge me extra) . The contract doesn't seem
to make any specific mention either way of reserving the right to
charge me extra for unforeseen problems in the building element of the
job

Thanks for any feedback

Brian

"bigbrian" wrote
| My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
| anticipated when the project was specified,

He should have anticipated that it is *possible* that there *may* be a
soakaway.

| The contract doesn't seem to make any specific mention either way
| of reserving the right to charge me extra for unforeseen problems
| in the building element of the job

Depends on whether the contract says, and the price was for, "erect a
conservatory" or "do all works necessary to erect a conservatory".

Owain

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:58:55 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"bigbrian" wrote
| My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
| anticipated when the project was specified,

He should have anticipated that it is *possible* that there *may* be a
soakaway.

| The contract doesn't seem to make any specific mention either way
| of reserving the right to charge me extra for unforeseen problems
| in the building element of the job

Depends on whether the contract says, and the price was for, "erect a
conservatory" or "do all works necessary to erect a conservatory".

Naturally, it says neither

Brian

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:25:06 +0100,
wrote:

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:58:55 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"bigbrian" wrote
| My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
| anticipated when the project was specified,

He should have anticipated that it is *possible* that there *may* be a
soakaway.

| The contract doesn't seem to make any specific mention either way
| of reserving the right to charge me extra for unforeseen problems
| in the building element of the job

Depends on whether the contract says, and the price was for, "erect a
conservatory" or "do all works necessary to erect a conservatory".

Naturally, it says neither

Brian

I would take the moral high ground and treat it as a fait accompli -
in other words and assumptive approach that of course they are going
to do it. If they haven't allowed for it then it's their issue.


I had a similar situation.

There was an inspection chamber in a position that would have been
right under the conservatory floor - in fact about a metre inside one
door. I was not prepared to have a manhole cover in my slate floor
so the supplier was asked to account for moving it to a position
outside.

Unfortunately they screwed up and made a wrong assumption about the
direction of slope of the drains. This meant that the chamber needed
to be moved to a point some 7m from its original position and in the
other direction. This meant a great deal more digging which probably
took them half a day plus some extra soil pipe.

Needless to say, they tried to wriggle out of it and increase the
cost. It was suggested that they might enjoy sex and travel, and
they saw my point. It all worked in my favour because it positioned
the drains better for my kitchen remodelling.

One general point is to keep as much money back at all times until
*all* the work is complete.

As part of the negotiation, I did not agree to more than 25% of the
total being given before completion of the base, a further 25% on
delivery of the frame and glass, 20% on completing erection and the
remainder when all snagging was complete.

Make sure that you use something covered by the Consumer Credit Act.
EIther a credit agreement which you pay off quickly, or a credit card.
The if something goes tits up you are better protected.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 00:46:56 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:25:06 +0100,
wrote:

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:58:55 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"bigbrian" wrote
| My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
| anticipated when the project was specified,

He should have anticipated that it is *possible* that there *may* be a
soakaway.

| The contract doesn't seem to make any specific mention either way
| of reserving the right to charge me extra for unforeseen problems
| in the building element of the job

Depends on whether the contract says, and the price was for, "erect a
conservatory" or "do all works necessary to erect a conservatory".

Naturally, it says neither

Brian

I would take the moral high ground and treat it as a fait accompli -
in other words and assumptive approach that of course they are going
to do it. If they haven't allowed for it then it's their issue.


I had a similar situation.

There was an inspection chamber in a position that would have been
right under the conservatory floor - in fact about a metre inside one
door. I was not prepared to have a manhole cover in my slate floor
so the supplier was asked to account for moving it to a position
outside.

Unfortunately they screwed up and made a wrong assumption about the
direction of slope of the drains. This meant that the chamber needed
to be moved to a point some 7m from its original position and in the
other direction. This meant a great deal more digging which probably
took them half a day plus some extra soil pipe.

Needless to say, they tried to wriggle out of it and increase the
cost. It was suggested that they might enjoy sex and travel, and
they saw my point. It all worked in my favour because it positioned
the drains better for my kitchen remodelling.

One general point is to keep as much money back at all times until
*all* the work is complete.

As part of the negotiation, I did not agree to more than 25% of the
total being given before completion of the base, a further 25% on
delivery of the frame and glass, 20% on completing erection and the
remainder when all snagging was complete.

Make sure that you use something covered by the Consumer Credit Act.
EIther a credit agreement which you pay off quickly, or a credit card.
The if something goes tits up you are better protected.

To date I've only paid 10% (by credit card), with 20% more payable on
completion of the building work and the remaining 70% payable on
completion of the whole project, so I have enough leverage (unless
they decide to pull out altogether). To date, they haven't even
indicated that they'll want to charge me at all, but the builder seems
to suggest that the conservatory company will pursue me for what he's
going to charge them for digging a new soakaway.

Not trying to rip anyone off.......I don't mind paying if its normal
practice that these things are excluded....just trying to find out
what the conventional wisdom (if there is any) is

Brian

the builder seems to suggest that the conservatory company will pursue
me for what he's going to charge them for digging a new soakaway.

IANAL

I`d be tempted to argue that the quote should have included all necessary
works, and that their failure to allow for all contingencies is not your
problem.

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

wrote in message . ..
In the process of having a conservatory built, the builders digging
out the base have identified that the rainwater pipe to the soakaway
ends in an area that is going to be concreted over. This will then
(apparently, I'm none too familiar with this stuff) result in a new
soakaway having to be dug further down the garden, and the pipework
rerouted into it around the conservatory.

My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
anticipated when the project was specified, or are they likely to want
to charge me extra for it (they've said nothing yet but its only been
discovered this morning, so I'm trying to get some info for when they
do, as I expect, try to charge me extra) . The contract doesn't seem
to make any specific mention either way of reserving the right to
charge me extra for unforeseen problems in the building element of the
job

Thanks for any feedback

Brian

This would normally be an unforeseen item. The company would expect to
tap into some near by drains, and not have to make a completely new
soakaway and drain run.

Unless they are prepared to cover the cost, it would be unreasonable
for you not to pay for this extra work.

dg

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:11:02 +0100,
wrote:


To date I've only paid 10% (by credit card), with 20% more payable on
completion of the building work and the remaining 70% payable on
completion of the whole project, so I have enough leverage (unless
they decide to pull out altogether). To date, they haven't even
indicated that they'll want to charge me at all, but the builder seems
to suggest that the conservatory company will pursue me for what he's
going to charge them for digging a new soakaway.

OK. This is a fairly typical arrangement.

Actually the numbers give a pretty good clue.

The 20-30% is what they will need to pay the builder producing the
base, with 70% being the frame, glass and the conservatory company's
margin.

What I would do is to keep a note of the total time that the builder
takes to make the base, and also for how much time (ask him "as a
matter of interest") it will take to do the soakaway stuff.

I took photos at the end of each working day so that I had a record of
the stage reached.



Not trying to rip anyone off.......I don't mind paying if its normal
practice that these things are excluded....just trying to find out
what the conventional wisdom (if there is any) is

Armed with the above information, you can calculate roughly what
should be involved.

Let's say that the total project is £10k and that we therefore assume
that the builder is getting paid £3k for the base. Let's also say
that he would normally take 3 days (he's probably on a fixed price
from the conservatory supplier so time is critical). If he takes
half a day longer to do the drain, then this is costing the builder
£500.

As an opening gambit, I would therefore push the conservatory supplier
to take the £500 out of margin.

If not, then I would argue that £500 is a reasonable figure. I
wouldn't accept them marking it up in proportion to the project - i.e.
to an implied £1000-1500.

This is an example, but you can see the scaling.....






Brian

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:55:51 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:11:02 +0100,
wrote:


To date I've only paid 10% (by credit card), with 20% more payable on
completion of the building work and the remaining 70% payable on
completion of the whole project, so I have enough leverage (unless
they decide to pull out altogether). To date, they haven't even
indicated that they'll want to charge me at all, but the builder seems
to suggest that the conservatory company will pursue me for what he's
going to charge them for digging a new soakaway.

OK. This is a fairly typical arrangement.

Actually the numbers give a pretty good clue.

The 20-30% is what they will need to pay the builder producing the
base, with 70% being the frame, glass and the conservatory company's
margin.

What I would do is to keep a note of the total time that the builder
takes to make the base, and also for how much time (ask him "as a
matter of interest") it will take to do the soakaway stuff.

I took photos at the end of each working day so that I had a record of
the stage reached.

I'm already doing the same :-)

As it happens, I'm not sure that the builders are on any kind of time
payment. They don't seem to be in any rush, don't start too early,
don't work too late. I've heard them mention that they get paid by the
cubic metre dug. This became relevant when the installations manager,
who they don't like much, came over to have a look. They seemed to
think he was trying to tell them they were deep enough (he wasn't
actually saying that, but they took it that way) when the guy doing
the digging still wasn't happy that he'd got down to solid ground. He
ended up going 1.4 metres before he got to something he was happy to
build on. Its taken a day and half to do that, they're concreting
later on today.

I'm expecting to hear today from the conservatory company about the
cost of the soakaway. Watch this space

Brian

(dg) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message . ..
In the process of having a conservatory built, the builders digging
out the base have identified that the rainwater pipe to the soakaway
ends in an area that is going to be concreted over. This will then
(apparently, I'm none too familiar with this stuff) result in a new
soakaway having to be dug further down the garden, and the pipework
rerouted into it around the conservatory.

My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
anticipated when the project was specified, or are they likely to want
to charge me extra for it (they've said nothing yet but its only been
discovered this morning, so I'm trying to get some info for when they
do, as I expect, try to charge me extra) . The contract doesn't seem
to make any specific mention either way of reserving the right to
charge me extra for unforeseen problems in the building element of the
job

Thanks for any feedback

Brian

This would normally be an unforeseen item. The company would expect to
tap into some near by drains, and not have to make a completely new
soakaway and drain run.

Unless they are prepared to cover the cost, it would be unreasonable
for you not to pay for this extra work.

dg

Exactly. Usually an unforseen item is one which a "competent" builder
would not be expected to predict. In this case, if the soakaway had a
inspection cover over it or at least had a visible inspection pipe
then you would expect him to have allowed for moving it. Otherwise,
you will have to pay.

"Sam" wrote in message
om...
(dg) wrote in message
. com...
wrote in message
. ..
In the process of having a conservatory built, the builders digging
out the base have identified that the rainwater pipe to the soakaway
ends in an area that is going to be concreted over. This will then
(apparently, I'm none too familiar with this stuff) result in a new
soakaway having to be dug further down the garden, and the pipework
rerouted into it around the conservatory.

My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
anticipated when the project was specified, or are they likely to want
to charge me extra for it (they've said nothing yet but its only been
discovered this morning, so I'm trying to get some info for when they
do, as I expect, try to charge me extra) . The contract doesn't seem
to make any specific mention either way of reserving the right to
charge me extra for unforeseen problems in the building element of the
job

Thanks for any feedback

Brian

This would normally be an unforeseen item. The company would expect to
tap into some near by drains, and not have to make a completely new
soakaway and drain run.

Unless they are prepared to cover the cost, it would be unreasonable
for you not to pay for this extra work.

dg

Exactly. Usually an unforseen item is one which a "competent" builder
would not be expected to predict. In this case, if the soakaway had a
inspection cover over it or at least had a visible inspection pipe
then you would expect him to have allowed for moving it. Otherwise,
you will have to pay.

A friend of mine whilst having his conservatory built, found a inspection
cover 6 inches under the soil, right in the middle of the base. Buried since
the house was built in mid 90's. Had to pay for the builders to relocate the
pipework around the conservatory, wasn't much (about £1000) on £14k total
cost, but other option was inspection cover in middle of conservatory.

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:58:55 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"bigbrian" wrote
| My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
| anticipated when the project was specified,

He should have anticipated that it is *possible* that there *may* be a
soakaway.

| The contract doesn't seem to make any specific mention either way
| of reserving the right to charge me extra for unforeseen problems
| in the building element of the job

Depends on whether the contract says, and the price was for, "erect a
conservatory" or "do all works necessary to erect a conservatory".

Owain

Further update:

Still no word from the company on who's paying for the new soakaway,
but the old one was concreted in this afternoon. If it rains before
the new one is dug, the rain water is going to collect at the end of
the existing pipe against the concrete. Is this going to cause a
problem at all?

Brian

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:58:55 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"bigbrian" wrote
| My question is is this something that the surveyor should have
| anticipated when the project was specified,

He should have anticipated that it is *possible* that there *may* be a
soakaway.

| The contract doesn't seem to make any specific mention either way
| of reserving the right to charge me extra for unforeseen problems
| in the building element of the job

Depends on whether the contract says, and the price was for, "erect a
conservatory" or "do all works necessary to erect a conservatory".

Next question: anybody got any idea about a likely additional cost for
a new soakaway?

Brian

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:02:13 +0100, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from contains these words:


Next question: anybody got any idea about a likely additional cost for
a new soakaway?

If you're remotely handy, you can DIY.

Not an option when your leg's in plaster :-)

So, assuming you can't DIY...likely cost?

Brian