Peter Ramm wrote:

[... big snip]

I explained my concerns to the Engineer (he was aware of my earlier
concerns). He explained that the rail was adequately bonded to earth,
as the rail was supplied by a conventional three wire cable (one of
which was earth) which terminated in a junction box. The earth from
the junction box was itself earth bonded to two independant "earthed
risers" in the hotel.

I disagreed and said that I thought that this was not sufficient and
was certainly not an in dependant earth bonding of the appliance.

He's probably right, you're probably wrong. It is perfectly in order
for an appliance like this to have the supplementary bonding connected
via the flexible supply cord. From the "junction box" you mention,
which is likely to be a fused connection unit, there should be a circuit
protective (earth) conductor going back to the point of supply (i.e. a
distribution board) and, if necessary, supplementary bonding conductors
to other accessible metalwork in the bathroom.

I asked him if the wiring of the appliance conformed to the relevant
IEEE regs.

IEE regs - aka BS 7671. Nothing to do with the IEEE!

1) What is the most appropriate group for my query?

In the UK this is as good as any, or you could try
sci.engr.electrical.compliance

2) Are my concerns justified?
Probably not.

3) Is the hotel actually breaking the law in any way?
Pass - but there's some evidence of (over enthusiastic) electrical
inspections taking place, so it looks as if there's some effort being
made to discharge their responsibilities under the Electricity at Work
Regulations.

4) To whom should I escalate?
No-one. Find something more important to worry about.

--
Andy

James Salisbury wrote:
"Peter Ramm" wrote in message
...

Posting here as I think what I have to say may be of interest - also
looking for advice on which is more appropriate group to post to.

Firstly there is an introduction to "the problem" - but then four
particular questions:

I have stayed in the same "4 star" hotel in London each week for the
last four weeks in different rooms each time:

Week one: noticed that there was a heated towel-rail in the bathroom
which had a bonding cable from the earth bonding point on the rail
which disappeared through a hole in the wall - I assumed to be
strapped to part of the plumbing or a suitable bonding point. Good.

Week two: noticed that the earth bonding point on the towel rail was
not connected to anything - also there was an electrical appliance
testing sticker saying that the equipment had failed its test, was
potentially dangerous and not to be used. The equipment was connected
to the mains and in use. Definitely not good.

Week three: There was no earth bonding cable from the bonding point on
the towel rail - the rail was not in use - I assume the fuse had been
pulled because of there being no bonding. Good.

Week four: the bonding point on the towel rail was not connected to
anything. The towel rail was in use. Not good.

Actions:
Week two: I strongly expressed my concern to the duty manager -
explained the problem and said that I expected it to be sorted and
that I did not expect to experience such "problems" again. All
comments apparently taken on board, the duty manager would pass on my
concern to the Hotel Engineer.

Week four: asked to see duty manager - he arranged meeting with Hotel
Engineer.

I explained my concerns to the Engineer (he was aware of my earlier
concerns). He explained that the rail was adequately bonded to earth,
as the rail was supplied by a conventional three wire cable (one of
which was earth) which terminated in a junction box. The earth from
the junction box was itself earth bonded to two independant "earthed
risers" in the hotel.

I disagreed and said that I thought that this was not sufficient and
was certainly not an in dependant earth bonding of the appliance.

I asked him if the wiring of the appliance conformed to the relevant
IEEE regs. He said that he "thought" that it did. I commented that
"thought" was not sufficient.

Questions:

1) What is the most appropriate group for my query?
2) Are my concerns justified?
3) Is the hotel actually breaking the law in any way?
4) To whom should I escalate?
--
Pete Ramm


Stamp out Spam - See my anti-spam pages:
http://www.spamfreezone.org


Try the enviromental health department of the local council.


It might fall under the fire certification system. - (depending on the
area) they need to have electrical certificates to pass the fire
certificate inspection.

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 00:32:29 +0100, Peter Ramm
wrote:


Questions:

1) What is the most appropriate group for my query?
2) Are my concerns justified?
3) Is the hotel actually breaking the law in any way?
4) To whom should I escalate?

Practically speaking, Peter, if this causes you concern then I would
stay at a different hotel. The chances of anything happening
without gargantuan effort on your part are probably slim to none.

It reminds me of this story. Your towel rail has all the ingredients
for a similar exasperating experience.


The following letters are taken from an actual incident between a
London hotel and one of its guests. The Hotel ended up submitting the
letters to the London Sunday Times.

Dear Maid,

Please do not leave any more of those little bars of soap in my
bathroom since I have brought my own bath-sized Dial. Please remove
the six unopened little bars from the shelf under the medicine chest
and another three in the shower soap dish. They are in my way.

Thank you,
S. Berman

************************************************** *********************
Dear Room 635,

I am not your regular maid. She will be back tomorrow, Thursday, from
her day off. I took the 3 hotel soaps out of the shower soap dish as
you requested. The 6 bars on your shelf I took out of your way and put
on top of your Kleenex dispenser in case you should change your mind.
This leaves only the 3 bars left today which my instructions from the
management is to leave 3 soaps daily. I hope this is satisfactory.

Kathy, Relief Maid

************************************************** *********************
Dear Maid - I hope you are my regular maid.

Apparently Kathy did not tell you about my note to her concerning the
little bars of soap. When I got back to my room this evening I found
you had added 3 little Camays to the shelf under my medicine cabinet.
I am going to be here in the hotel for two weeks and have brought my
own bath-size Dial so I won't need those 6 little Camays which are on
the shelf. They are in my way when shaving, brushing teeth, etc.
Please remove them.

S. Berman

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mr. Berman,

My day off was last Wed. so the relief maid left 3 hotel soaps which
we are instructed by the management. I took the 6 soaps which were in
your way on the shelf and put them in the soap dish where your Dial
was. I put the Dial in the medicine cabinet for your convenience. I
didn't remove the 3 complimentary soaps which are always placed inside
the medicine cabinet for all new check-ins and which you did not
object to when you checked in last Monday. Please let me know if I can
of further assistance.

Your regular maid,
Dotty

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mr. Berman,

The assistant manager, Mr. Kensedder, informed me this morning that
you called him last evening and said you were unhappy with your maid
service. I have assigned a new girl to your room. I hope you will
accept my apologies for any past inconvenience. If you have any future
complaints please contact me so I can give it my personal attention.
Call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM.

Thank you.
Elaine Carmen
Housekeeper

************************************************** *********************
Dear Miss Carmen,

It is impossible to contact you by phone since I leave the hotel for
business at 7:45 AM and don't get back before 5:30 or 6PM. That's the
reason I called Mr. Kensedder last night. You were already off duty. I
only asked Mr. Kensedder if he could do anything about those little
bars of soap. The new maid you assigned me must have thought I was a
new check-in today, since she left another 3 bars of hotel soap in my
medicine cabinet along with her regular delivery of 3 bars on the
bathroom shelf. In just 5 days here I have accumulated 24 little bars
of soap. Why are you doing this to me?

S. Berman

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mr. Berman,

Your maid, Kathy, has been instructed to stop delivering soap to your
room and remove the extra soaps. If I can be of further assistance,
please call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM.

Thank you,
Elaine Carmen,
Housekeeper

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mr. Kensedder,

My bath-size Dial is missing. Every bar of soap was taken from my room
including my own bath-size Dial. I came in late last night and had to
call the bellhop to bring me 4 little Cashmere Bouquets.

S. Berman

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mr. Berman,

I have informed our housekeeper, Elaine Carmen, of your soap problem.
I cannot understand why there was no soap in your room since our maids
are instructed to leave 3 bars of soap each time they service a room.
The situation will be rectified immediately. Please accept my
apologies for the inconvenience.

Martin L. Kensedder
Assistant Manager

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mrs. Carmen,

Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room? I came in last
night and found 54 little bars of soap. I don't want 54 little bars of
Camay. I want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial. Do you realize I have
54 bars of soap in here. All I want is my bath size Dial. Please give
me back my bath-size Dial.

S. Berman

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mr. Berman,

You complained of too much soap in your room so I had them removed.
Then you complained to Mr. Kensedder that all your soap was missing so
I personally returned them. The 24 Camays which had been taken and the
3 Camays you are supposed to receive daily. I don't know anything
about the 4 Cashmere Bouquets. Obviously your maid, Kathy, did not
know I had returned your soaps so she also brought 24 Camays plus the
3 daily Camays. I don't know where you got the idea this hotel issues
bath-size Dial. I was able to locate some bath-size Ivory which I left
in your room.

Elaine Carmen
Housekeeper

************************************************** *********************
Dear Mrs. Carmen,

Just a short note to bring you up-to-date on my latest soap inventory.
As of today I possess: On the shelf under medicine cabinet - 18 Camay
in 4 stacks of 4 and 1 stack of 2. On the Kleenex dispenser - 11 Camay
in 2 stacks of 4 and 1 stack of 3. On the bedroom dresser - 1 stack of
3 Cashmere Bouquet, 1 stack of 4 hotel-size Ivory, and 8 Camay in 2
stacks of 4. Inside the medicine cabinet - 14 Camay in 3 stacks of 4
and 1 stack of 2. In the shower soap dish - 6 Camay, very moist. On
the northeast corner of tub - 1 Cashmere Bouquet, slightly used. On
the northwest corner of tub - 6 Camays in 2 stacks of 3.
Please ask Kathy when she services my room to make sure the stacks are
neatly piled and dusted. Also, please advise her that stacks of more
than 4 have a tendency to tip. May I suggest that my bedroom window
sill is not in use and will make an excellent spot for future soap
deliveries. One more item, I have purchased another bar of bath-sized
Dial which I am keeping in the hotel vault in order to avoid further
misunderstandings.

S. Berman

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Wade" wrote:

[more snips]

Peter Ramm wrote:
2) Are my concerns justified?
Probably not.

[snip]

Peter Ramm wrote:
4) To whom should I escalate?
No-one. Find something more important to worry about.

And don't ever stay in any hotel in almost any other
country in the world either.

Hotels in this country take far more care over safety
regulations than pretty much anywhere else I've been
(I have not visited the US, though - I imagine they are
also very careful because of their litigation culture).

Al

Andy Wade wrote:

No-one. Find something more important to worry about.


My sentiments exactly...

--
Grunff

"Peter Ramm" wrote
| Week three: There was no earth bonding cable from the bonding
| point on the towel rail - the rail was not in use - I assume
| the fuse had been pulled because of there being no bonding. Good.

Not good. For a 4* hotel bathroom to not have a warm towel rail all week is
not good.

Owain

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

It reminds me of this story. Your towel rail has all the ingredients
for a similar exasperating experience.


The following letters are taken from an actual incident between a
London hotel and one of its guests. The Hotel ended up submitting the
letters to the London Sunday Times.

snip letters

Talk about ROFLOL, had the guest not heard of something called a waste bin
?!...

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 08:51:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

The following letters are taken from an actual incident between a
London hotel and one of its guests. The Hotel ended up submitting the
letters to the London Sunday Times.

Shelley Berman is an American comedian on the Borscht-belt circuit,
another of those Brooklyn Borge. This is part of his schtick.


Now about that accident with the barrel of bricks and the rope.....