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Default O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

On 24/04/17 03:31, Johnny B Good wrote:
However, in order to maximise efficiency and power to weight performance
of electric traction motors, you get the best performance using a high rpm
motor[1] which basically precludes direct drive hub motor designs unless
you're prepared to sacrifice top end performance for improved battery
economy at more modest urban traffic speeds (you replace mechanical
transmission losses with much lower electric cabling losses).

[1] High rpm on account it uses less turns of heavier gauge copper in its
windings, meaning reduced I squared R losses.


But needs more current to achieve the same magnetic moment.

No, what counts is magnetic reversals per second, times the iron mass.

You can achieve that with a lot of poles, or a lot of RPM.

Copper losses turn out to be pretty much independent of the
configuration, and are a more a function of as you say RPM BUT its not
'RPM' that matters, its 'poles per second'.



--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal
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Default O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

On Sunday, 23 April 2017 16:54:08 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 23-Apr-17 10:10 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

....
Whatever you want to think, an R&D subsidiary of IAV Gmbh developed a
small, lightweight steam engine, using modern technology throughout,
that could be fitted into motor vehicles, although they see the
initial application as being in auxiliary power units, particularly in
third world countries. They claim fuel efficiency as being similar to
a diesel engine. It uses catalytic heating to avoid flames, which
keeps emissions down to very low levels, and can burn a very wide
range of fuels. Steam is viable, even if that does not sit well with
your world view.


As I hinted at before, where is the condenser and how big does it have
to be?


You would have to ask the developers that. However, they have said that
the engine could be fitted into a car, so they obviously don't think it
is a serious problem.

--
--

Colin Bignell


The only successful steam condensers for increasing pressure differencewere fitted to locomotives in Siberia for Winter running.

Others have been fitted to try to reduce water needed to be carried.
But have little effect on efficiency.

It's just not possible to reject that amount of heat on mobile steam engines
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Default O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

On Monday, 24 April 2017 07:39:14 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 23 April 2017 16:54:08 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 23-Apr-17 10:10 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

....
Whatever you want to think, an R&D subsidiary of IAV Gmbh developed a
small, lightweight steam engine, using modern technology throughout,
that could be fitted into motor vehicles, although they see the
initial application as being in auxiliary power units, particularly in
third world countries. They claim fuel efficiency as being similar to
a diesel engine. It uses catalytic heating to avoid flames, which
keeps emissions down to very low levels, and can burn a very wide
range of fuels. Steam is viable, even if that does not sit well with
your world view.

As I hinted at before, where is the condenser and how big does it have
to be?


You would have to ask the developers that. However, they have said that
the engine could be fitted into a car, so they obviously don't think it
is a serious problem.

--
--

Colin Bignell


The only successful steam condensers for increasing pressure differencewere fitted to locomotives in Siberia for Winter running.

Others have been fitted to try to reduce water needed to be carried.
But have little effect on efficiency.

It's just not possible to reject that amount of heat on mobile steam engines


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Default O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

On Sunday, 23 April 2017 21:37:09 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 23/04/2017 08:13, harry wrote:
Higher steam temperatures results in less efficient boilers because the exiting combustion gases can be at no lower temperature than the stem.


This turns out not to be the case.

You can, for example, use the warm exhaust to preheat the incoming air &
fuel.

Andy


The effect is negligible and leads ot all sorts of control problems.
The specific heat of air is low.
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Default O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

On 23-Apr-17 9:57 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/04/17 09:49, Nightjar wrote:
Steam is viable, even if that does not sit well with your world view.

Technically perhaps ...but economically?

IC engines are good because you don't have to lug the fuel oxidant or
the working fluid around. Its in huge supply as atmospheric oxygen and
gases respectively.

Once you are building a static installation though, steam predominates
and is more efficient, because you can run huge condensers on the back end.

And you have a variety of thermal sources that you can hook up - coal,
oil gas, nuclear.


The developers of the engine I mentioned see the main transport use to
be in commercial vehicles in third world countries, where its multi-fuel
capacity would allow more flexibility than a conventional ICE.

--
--

Colin Bignell


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On 24/04/17 09:55, Nightjar wrote:
On 23-Apr-17 9:57 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/04/17 09:49, Nightjar wrote:
Steam is viable, even if that does not sit well with your world view.

Technically perhaps ...but economically?

IC engines are good because you don't have to lug the fuel oxidant or
the working fluid around. Its in huge supply as atmospheric oxygen and
gases respectively.

Once you are building a static installation though, steam predominates
and is more efficient, because you can run huge condensers on the back
end.

And you have a variety of thermal sources that you can hook up - coal,
oil gas, nuclear.


The developers of the engine I mentioned see the main transport use to
be in commercial vehicles in third world countries, where its multi-fuel
capacity would allow more flexibility than a conventional ICE.

Ah. Like a traction engine.

To go with the windmills.


--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

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Default O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 8:11:00 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 19/04/17 23:03, NY wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.236...
Murmansk wrote in
:

I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was
impressive, so quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or does
the motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner
the optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.


No gearbox or clutch.


Mainly because an electric motor, when correctly driven, can generate
torque from zero speed and don't have such severe upper limits to the
speed because there are no reciprocating parts which have to rapidly
reverse direction.

Not having a gearbox (automatic or manual) must make it much easier to
drive because torque/acceleration is directly dependent on accelerator
position and not a combination of that and gear ratio - you don't get
gentle acceleration which suddenly becomes kick-in-the-back acceleration
as the automatic transmission reacts to your gradually increasing
accelerator position by suddenly deciding to change down in a situation
where a manual driver would hold onto the present gear. I find this the
hardest thing about automatics: I accelerate out of a roundabout and the
car suddenly lurches forward so I ease off the throttle slightly and it
changes back up - very difficult to hit the happy medium.

It is also easier to build in torque limiting to any value, to prevent
the car lurching forwards if you press the accelerator too hard when
setting off from rest, or for a cruise control to also accelerate you
briskly and yet smoothly from one speed (eg rest) to the another speed
speed. The fact that (AFAIK) no cars implement this doesn't mean it's
not possible to do.


Not only - but motors can be geared virtually - by changing the number
of poles.

Say you have a 24 pole motor. By deciding how to drive the windings in
phase or antiphase, you can pair off adjacent poles for an effective 12
pole, 8 pole, 6 pole etc setup.

More poles = slower and higher torque, less poles = higher rpm.

I have no idea if this method is used by any car motors but I think some
trains do - you can hear the "whirrr... drop pitch whirrr" which I can
only explain as pole changing as the motor is otherwise directly
connected to the axel.


I have also noticed that sound and imagined it to be due to exactly what you have described. A neat way of 'changing gear' electrically instead of mechanically.
Robert



Robert

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On 24 Apr 2017 09:44:44 GMT, Huge wrote:



I have also noticed that sound and imagined it to be due to exactly what you have described. A neat way of 'changing gear' electrically instead of mechanically.


Having listened to Tube trains "changing up" as they accelerate out of the
station, and assuming that they can't possibly have mechanical gearboxes,


The Germans and Austrians have tuned some of theirs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nhr5H7mSU

G.Harman
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Default O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

wrote in news:ghmrfcljv2ht1tatj7naphdvsids8g10l8@
4ax.com:

https://www.youtube.com/w

Great!
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Nightjar wrote:
On 23-Apr-17 9:57 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/04/17 09:49, Nightjar wrote:
Steam is viable, even if that does not sit well with your world view.

Technically perhaps ...but economically?

IC engines are good because you don't have to lug the fuel oxidant or
the working fluid around. Its in huge supply as atmospheric oxygen and
gases respectively.

Once you are building a static installation though, steam predominates
and is more efficient, because you can run huge condensers on the back
end.

And you have a variety of thermal sources that you can hook up - coal,
oil gas, nuclear.


The developers of the engine I mentioned see the main transport use to
be in commercial vehicles in third world countries, where its multi-fuel
capacity would allow more flexibility than a conventional ICE.


Sounds like we're going back to charcoal burners towed behind the car!


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On 24/04/2017 10:44, Huge wrote:
On 2017-04-24, RobertL wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 8:11:00 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:


[49 lines snipped]

I have no idea if this method is used by any car motors but I think some
trains do - you can hear the "whirrr... drop pitch whirrr" which I can
only explain as pole changing as the motor is otherwise directly
connected to the axel.


I have also noticed that sound and imagined it to be due to exactly what you have described. A neat way of 'changing gear' electrically instead of mechanically.


Having listened to Tube trains "changing up" as they accelerate out of the
station, and assuming that they can't possibly have mechanical gearboxes, I
found this quite interesting!


I think they used to run pairs of motors in parallel on starting and
switch over to series at higher speeds. That was some time ago and I
don't know if they still do.

--
Mike Clarke
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Mike Clarke wrote:
On 24/04/2017 10:44, Huge wrote:
On 2017-04-24, RobertL wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 8:11:00 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:


[49 lines snipped]

I have no idea if this method is used by any car motors but I think some
trains do - you can hear the "whirrr... drop pitch whirrr" which I can
only explain as pole changing as the motor is otherwise directly
connected to the axel.

I have also noticed that sound and imagined it to be due to exactly
what you have described. A neat way of 'changing gear' electrically
instead of mechanically.


Having listened to Tube trains "changing up" as they accelerate out of the
station, and assuming that they can't possibly have mechanical gearboxes, I
found this quite interesting!


I think they used to run pairs of motors in parallel on starting and
switch over to series at higher speeds. That was some time ago and I
don't know if they still do.


That description fits with this for older trains.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/re...%20Edition.pdf


I think this is what they use now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vari...requency_drive

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls
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Tim+ wrote:

Mike Clarke wrote:


I think they used to run pairs of motors in parallel on starting and
switch over to series at higher speeds. That was some time ago and I
don't know if they still do.


That description fits with this for older trains.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/re...%20Edition.pdf


Indeed so - the old DC machines with series resistors and series/
parallel switching. Simple, but inefficient. Somewhere in the
loft I have a copy of my calculations for the Class 313 notching
curves.

Now slowly passing into history.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.
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On 24-Apr-17 12:34 PM, Capitol wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 23-Apr-17 9:57 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/04/17 09:49, Nightjar wrote:
Steam is viable, even if that does not sit well with your world view.
Technically perhaps ...but economically?

IC engines are good because you don't have to lug the fuel oxidant or
the working fluid around. Its in huge supply as atmospheric oxygen and
gases respectively.

Once you are building a static installation though, steam predominates
and is more efficient, because you can run huge condensers on the back
end.

And you have a variety of thermal sources that you can hook up - coal,
oil gas, nuclear.


The developers of the engine I mentioned see the main transport use to
be in commercial vehicles in third world countries, where its multi-fuel
capacity would allow more flexibility than a conventional ICE.


Sounds like we're going back to charcoal burners towed behind the car!


I think that charcoal is one of the things their catalytic burner
couldn't handle. However, almost any flammable liquid or gas would work.

--
--

Colin Bignell
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On 23/04/2017 22:26, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
wrote:

Perhaps these researchers are of the same ilk as the Cold Fusion ones,
or that autism/vaccination [1] twerp.


[1] I see the anti-vax twerps are still on the go, with outbreaks of
measles as a result.


Its because vaccines carry a small risk and the twerps can't workout
that the risk from the illness is many times more.
So they put their child in danger and endanger others that can't have
the vaccine for reasons other than stupidity.


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On 24/04/2017 08:19, Chris Hogg wrote:


(SI = Somewhat Inconvenient, but there it is!)


Don't worry we are going back to degrees F, foot-pounds, etc. after brexit.
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On 23/04/2017 22:09, Tim Streater wrote:

Actually Tin-Tout/Tin. Which equals 1 - Tout/Tin.

OK, I'm not a physicist.

And the reason its degrees K is because the kinetic energy in a gas is
proportional to its temperature in K. Just look up thermal efficiency
in Winky.


But I'm enough of one to know that while one kelvin is equivalent to one
degree celsius, it isn't a degree. It's just a kelvin.

Andy
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On 24/04/2017 07:43, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 23 April 2017 21:37:09 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 23/04/2017 08:13, harry wrote:
Higher steam temperatures results in less efficient boilers because the exiting combustion gases can be at no lower temperature than the stem.


This turns out not to be the case.

You can, for example, use the warm exhaust to preheat the incoming air &
fuel.

Andy


The effect is negligible and leads ot all sorts of control problems.
The specific heat of air is low.

Well, I suggest you go and look at your nearest power station.

There's a nice model of one in the Science Museum.

Andy
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On 24/04/2017 07:43, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 23 April 2017 21:37:09 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 23/04/2017 08:13, harry wrote:
Higher steam temperatures results in less efficient boilers because the exiting combustion gases can be at no lower temperature than the stem.


This turns out not to be the case.

You can, for example, use the warm exhaust to preheat the incoming air &
fuel.

Andy


The effect is negligible and leads ot all sorts of control problems.
The specific heat of air is low.


What? Are you really trying to suggest the temperature of combustion is
independent of incoming air temperature?

There are even recuperative furnaces for smelting. I suggest you look up
'recovery boiler design' before showing any more ignorance.
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:44:26 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

On 24/04/2017 10:44, Huge wrote:
On 2017-04-24, RobertL wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 8:11:00 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:


[49 lines snipped]

I have no idea if this method is used by any car motors but I think
some trains do - you can hear the "whirrr... drop pitch whirrr"
which I can only explain as pole changing as the motor is otherwise
directly connected to the axle.

I have also noticed that sound and imagined it to be due to exactly
what you have described. A neat way of 'changing gear' electrically
instead of mechanically.


Having listened to Tube trains "changing up" as they accelerate out of
the station, and assuming that they can't possibly have mechanical
gearboxes, I found this quite interesting!


I think they used to run pairs of motors in parallel on starting and
switch over to series at higher speeds. That was some time ago and I
don't know if they still do.


If true, the sequence would have been series for starting, then
paralleled for 'cruise speed'. Effectively a two speed "Electric Gearbox"
created out of nothing more sophisticated than a cleverly sequenced bunch
of contactor switches.

The same trick can be used in hydraulic drive trains where the motors
*are* fed in parallel from the pump to double the starting torque at half
speed (they get the full pump pressure at half pump flow rate each)
before being 'valved' into series for full/cruise speed (each operating
at full pump flow but only half the pump pressure).

For passenger cars, I doubt such an 'electric gearbox' technique would
be applied (other than as a fixed ratio matching between motor and road
wheel speeds in the fashion of a rear wheel differential reduction box as
part of the optimisation of the design of the whole power train).

Since an electric motor is, like a steam traction engine, capable of
providing high torque from a complete standstill, the necessary voltage
controller to control the vehicle's speed can also effectively function
as a combined accelerator and automatic gearbox in one when fabricated
using modern heavy duty switching converter technology thus neatly saving
on the need for an additional box of contactors to switch between series
and parallel motor arrangements (or effective poles in a single motor).

A box of contactors in addition to the electronic speed controller would
most likely be more at home with rolling stock and heavy duty goods
wagons and specialised military vehicles (and possibly off-road 4WD
vehicles) otherwise why embellish an already effective switching
converter solution to speed control with the additional expense of
another box of contactors?

I'm no expert on how the manufacturers *actually* apply these basic laws
of physics as they relate to electric (and hydraulic and gross
mechanical) power trains[1], just someone who has a comprehensive
understanding of the principles the manufacturers are constrained to work
with. :-)

[1] When all is said and done, the basic function of a power train is
just a specialised application of Archimede's Principle of levers.

--
Johnny B Good


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On 23/04/2017 22:26, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
wrote:

Perhaps these researchers are of the same ilk as the Cold Fusion ones,
or that autism/vaccination [1] twerp.


[1] I see the anti-vax twerps are still on the go, with outbreaks of
measles as a result.


Some of us were not willing to risk MMR, but paid for single vaccines to
gain the protection - rather expensive at 3 vaccines per child, £136 per
vaccine and 3 children, but we had our reasons.

At the time of the "scare" my wife (a nurse) worked directly with two
different colleagues, both of whose children were developing normally,
both children had the MMR, both suffered a fever and went floppy the
evening of vaccination day. In both cases, the children took a week to
recover and had regressed significantly. Both were later diagnosed as
autistic.

Having such immediate experience of what some people were saying
persuaded us not to take the risk.

Getting the single vaccinations was not easy, as not only were they
expensive, but the government had apparently put a limit on how much
could be imported, creating a national shortage.

SteveW

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On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 08:19:28 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 01:45:45 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 21:42:59 +0100, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 22/04/2017 22:43, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:13:31 +0100, charles wrote:

In article , Tim
Streater wrote:

One of the laws of thermodynamics IIRC - efficiency is related to
the difference between input and output temps - in degrees K, not
C.

my elementary physics suggests that if you are only refering to a
temperature difference the answer is the same in °K and in °C.°

The main benefit of using deg K instead of Deg C is the complete and
utter absence of negative numbers by which to confuse the
mathematics.
:-)

It's true enough that as far as steam engines are concerned, this is
unlikely to effect calculations involving deg C, but there are other
heat engines designs based on fluids with much lower freezing and
boiling points than zero deg C (the triple point of water to within
an accuracy of one decimal place).

FFS Kelvins aren't degrees.


Well, assuming by "Kelvins" you meant Degrees Kelvin and by "degrees"
you meant degrees Celcius, they are!


Degrees Kelvin is not the approved SI unit. The kelvin is, as is K. So
water freezes at 273.15 kelvin or 273.15 K. Not degrees Kelvin, nor
Kelvins nor even kelvins (which I wrongly used in an earlier post).
http://tinyurl.com/kr3l36f

(SI = Somewhat Inconvenient, but there it is!)


Ah! I now see the point being made by Andy. :-)

I like your definition, "SI = Somewhat Inconvenient"[1]. I've watched
enough episodes of "QI" to know better by now. However, in my defence,
I'm not habitually writing scientific papers where such precision of
terminology is a vital part of not being deemed a bit of a Dickhead by
one's peers so lack the experience required to remain up to date with the
latest fads in SI unit terminology.

I'm now aware of the fact that Kelvins (or, more precisely, Kelvin)
*aren't* degrees. :-)

[1] It occurred to me that the misunderstanding was more to do with
semantics so I think a better definition of SI may be[2] "Semantically
Inconvenient".

[2] Please note the *correct* usage of "may be" in this case. I'm sick of
the sight of "may be" when the *single* word "maybe" was intended (along
with the less common but equally irritating use of "maybe" in place of
the phrase "may be"). Apologies for this mini-rant but it *does* feel
good to get that off my chest. :-)

--
Johnny B Good
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On 22/04/2017 10:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/04/17 09:45, Nightjar wrote:
On 21-Apr-17 6:46 PM, harry wrote:
On Friday, 21 April 2017 09:58:50 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 21-Apr-17 8:47 AM, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 19:24:26 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 20-Apr-17 6:18 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 20-Apr-17 8:18 AM, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 19:47:29 UTC+1, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was
impressive, so
quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or
does the
motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the
owner the
optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.

Internal combustion engines are inherently unsuitable for
traction,
hence
the need for gearboxes/clutches etc.
Electric motors can be designed to be ideal for traction.
Max torque at zero rpm.

I could get that with a steam engine.

And a small one at that for a car. But AIUI, it's the condenser
that's
the problem.


With a 24 gallon water tank, the 1924 Doble E had a 1500 mile range
and
it could move off from cold in under 30 seconds.

Drivel.
Water is not fuel.

I was answering the point about the condenser. However, recent advances
in catalytic splitting of water could make it feasible to use water as
fuel, if you really wanted to.

Drivel.
Have you never heard of the Law of Conservation of Energy?


The principle has been demonstrated. A few years ago the Japanese
demonstrated a fuel cell car that ran entirely on water.

All steam engines and boilers are inherently inefficient.
They will never come anywhere near the ICE efficiency wise.


Typical modern steam power station 37%. More with supercritical steam
Typical diesel. 25%.



Petrol cars achieve a tank to wheel thermal efficiency of about 16%.
Non-condensing third generation steam locomotives achieve a drawbar
thermal efficiency of about 16%.


No use telling harry anything. The thermodynamics are all well
understood, but not by harry



I spent forty years running them. And getting rid of them where
possible.


I suspect that the boilers and engines you are familiar with are more
nineteenth century technology than twenty-first century. A titanium tube
flash boiler can supply steam at up to 4,000 psi and 650C. Ceramics
allow engines to work at those temperatures and pressures and achieve
efficiencies not even dreamed of with conventional materials.


Exatamondo. I cant remember what the law is called, but the hotter the
working fluid (steam in this case) is to start with, and the colder the
final exhaust, the more efficient is the engine.

Which is why a combined cycle gas turbine that starts with 1000C gases
in the jet engine, then heats a boler to get steam, and has a final
after condenser temp of around 50C, willnet you over 60% thermal
efficiency.


There was an article some time ago saying that you can do better than
that. Follow up the whole train with a closed circuit system containing
LPG. The waste heat boils the LPG which drives an expander to produce
more power. Extracting the energy cools the gas to a mixed vapour/liquid
which can then be cooled a little further in a condenser to re-liquify
it for re-circulation.

Steve W

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On 24/04/2017 21:33, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 23/04/2017 22:09, Tim Streater wrote:

Actually Tin-Tout/Tin. Which equals 1 - Tout/Tin.

OK, I'm not a physicist.

And the reason its degrees K is because the kinetic energy in a gas is
proportional to its temperature in K. Just look up thermal efficiency
in Winky.


But I'm enough of one to know that while one kelvin is equivalent to one
degree celsius, it isn't a degree. It's just a kelvin.

Andy


Correct. You can have a difference of 10 degrees Centigrade, 10 degrees
Celcius or 10 Kelvin and they are the same ... you cannot have 10
degrees Kelvin, it is just wrong! °C is a relative scale, a gradient,
hence the degrees, whereas K is an absolute scale, a fundamental unit,
hence no degrees.

Now, how about Rankine?

SteveW

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On 24/04/2017 23:02, Steve Walker wrote:

Correct. You can have a difference of 10 degrees Centigrade, 10 degrees
Celcius or 10 Kelvin and they are the same ... you cannot have 10
degrees Kelvin, it is just wrong! °C is a relative scale, a gradient,


How can it have a gradient when its scalar?

The bit of the equation is just constant + the temp where the
constant for kelvin is zero.


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On 24/04/17 22:52, Steve Walker wrote:
On 22/04/2017 10:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/04/17 09:45, Nightjar wrote:
On 21-Apr-17 6:46 PM, harry wrote:
On Friday, 21 April 2017 09:58:50 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 21-Apr-17 8:47 AM, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 19:24:26 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 20-Apr-17 6:18 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar
wrote:

On 20-Apr-17 8:18 AM, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 19:47:29 UTC+1, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was
impressive, so
quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or
does the
motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the
owner the
optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.

Internal combustion engines are inherently unsuitable for
traction,
hence
the need for gearboxes/clutches etc.
Electric motors can be designed to be ideal for traction.
Max torque at zero rpm.

I could get that with a steam engine.

And a small one at that for a car. But AIUI, it's the condenser
that's
the problem.


With a 24 gallon water tank, the 1924 Doble E had a 1500 mile range
and
it could move off from cold in under 30 seconds.

Drivel.
Water is not fuel.

I was answering the point about the condenser. However, recent
advances
in catalytic splitting of water could make it feasible to use water as
fuel, if you really wanted to.

Drivel.
Have you never heard of the Law of Conservation of Energy?

The principle has been demonstrated. A few years ago the Japanese
demonstrated a fuel cell car that ran entirely on water.

All steam engines and boilers are inherently inefficient.
They will never come anywhere near the ICE efficiency wise.


Typical modern steam power station 37%. More with supercritical steam
Typical diesel. 25%.



Petrol cars achieve a tank to wheel thermal efficiency of about 16%.
Non-condensing third generation steam locomotives achieve a drawbar
thermal efficiency of about 16%.


No use telling harry anything. The thermodynamics are all well
understood, but not by harry



I spent forty years running them. And getting rid of them where
possible.

I suspect that the boilers and engines you are familiar with are more
nineteenth century technology than twenty-first century. A titanium tube
flash boiler can supply steam at up to 4,000 psi and 650C. Ceramics
allow engines to work at those temperatures and pressures and achieve
efficiencies not even dreamed of with conventional materials.


Exatamondo. I cant remember what the law is called, but the hotter the
working fluid (steam in this case) is to start with, and the colder the
final exhaust, the more efficient is the engine.

Which is why a combined cycle gas turbine that starts with 1000C gases
in the jet engine, then heats a boler to get steam, and has a final
after condenser temp of around 50C, willnet you over 60% thermal
efficiency.


There was an article some time ago saying that you can do better than
that. Follow up the whole train with a closed circuit system containing
LPG. The waste heat boils the LPG which drives an expander to produce
more power. Extracting the energy cools the gas to a mixed vapour/liquid
which can then be cooled a little further in a condenser to re-liquify
it for re-circulation.

The law of diminishing returns steps in. You cant get lower than
ambient, and even if you could get back to ambient its still only around
70% from memory.

You need to have a hotter gas to start with.

Steve W



--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."


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Johnny B Good wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:44:26 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

I think they used to run pairs of motors in parallel on starting and
switch over to series at higher speeds. That was some time ago and I
don't know if they still do.


If true, the sequence would have been series for starting, then
paralleled for 'cruise speed'. Effectively a two speed "Electric Gearbox"
created out of nothing more sophisticated than a cleverly sequenced bunch
of contactor switches.


It is quite true, though the actual method is somewhat more
complicated. I was about to start writing a description, but it
is covered rather well he

http://www.railway-technical.com/tract-01.shtml

About the last UK stock to be built using this principle was the
1983 Tube Stock which was retired from service comparatively
early in 1998. Older examples are still in daily use.

Chris
--
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On 20/04/2017 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 20/04/17 08:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 08:10, Tim Watts wrote:


More poles = slower and higher torque, less poles = higher rpm.


What utter ********.


Perhaps you should check your facts before you go slagging people off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahlan...changing_motor

I'll accept an apology when you've read that.


I have no idea if this method is used by any car motors but I think
some
trains do - you can hear the "whirrr... drop pitch whirrr" which I
can
only explain as pole changing as the motor is otherwise directly
connected to the axel.

However, I'm pretty sure most traction has at least one set of fixed
gears as motor rpms tend to be higher than desired wheel rpms.

Well even there you would be wrong. Its depends on how many poles the
motor is built with (as opposed to driven).

I could explain the theory, but you wouldn't understand it would you?


Perhaps you could try - or is it beneath you?



People would simply say 'too long, didn't bother to read it' and go back
to believing simple fairy tales as per usual.

Lets just deal with one aspect. Number of poles. There is a given amount
of iron you can cram into a motor, that, plus the magnets you use
(unless they are electromagnets) determines the amount of energy *per
magnetic reversal* you can get in and out of the system

This leads to a simple rule: the more revs (reversals) the more power.
Until other factors limit you, as high frequencies start to impose their
own extra losses, as does friction.

Adding more poles allow for more reversals per shaft rotation. It is
equivalent to a gearbox. However only using *some* of those poles nets
you nothing, because you are simply using less ironwork. Its pointless.
No one does it. It is simply like having a smaller motor that weighs more.

Electric motors are UTTERLY different from other motors.They dont really
have a 'power rating' re se. Only when fed from a given voltage.

I've run motors designed for 3V, generally used at 6-7v, at 11-12 v and
got more than three times the power out of them. The limitation was
brush bounce and wear in that case, and the availability of gearboxes to
get the insane RPM down to something usable..


In practical terms a multipole motor is bigger and more expensive than a
two or three pole motor* BUT if the gearbox you need to use is more
expensive and heavier...then the multi-pole wins slightly.

Some of the model motors used to come with kevlar wound rotors, to stop
them exploding. More revs, more power.


That's part of the simple story. The more complex story involves
understanding copper losses (resistance) iron losses (hysteresis and
frictional motor losses) plus issues with the controlling electronics
(peak currents, inductance, switching losses and so on). And it it uses
permanent magnets, the field strength, weight, and performance versus
temperature of those as well.

Each one of which is a book chapters worth.

*two magnetic, three wound poles is the most basic uni-directional motor.


I'd take that as the apology Tim :-)


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On 21/04/2017 11:21, wrote:
On 21/04/2017 08:04, RJH wrote:
On 21/04/2017 00:04,
wrote:
On 20/04/2017 17:23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Brian Reay
wrote:

On 19/04/2017 19:47, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was
impressive, so
quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or does
the
motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner the
optimum
speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.

We looked at the Tesla and were told it didn't have a gear box.

We decided against all electric, we don't like the idea of being stuck
with a 'flat' battery on a journey. The idea of stopping for 'top ups'
on a long journey is fine until you consider the practical aspects.

As a matter of interest, is anyone looking (as in considering making) a
hybrid electric? As in, rather than having a powerful petrol engine, a
less powerful electric motor, a normal size fuel tank and a smaller
battery (like my Toyota Auris), instead have a full-size electric
motor, larger battery, but with a small petrol engine and small fuel
tank?

That way one could stop anywhere to recharge or even do it on the go.

A few months ago I went through the EV search, I think the ones with
small ICEs are called Range Extenders. I decided on a plug-in hybrid and
am very pleased with it - 208HP ICE and 80HP electric motor driving a
seven speed auto box with some magic arrangement of clutches that allows
one or both to drive, or neither, or to use the motor for regen braking.
All very clever but probably a maintenance nightmare when it gets old.


BMW 3 series? A friend has one and likes it.

No, it's a M-B C350E estate.


About the same price as the BMW - surprised, thought it'd be a fair bit
more.

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On 25/04/2017 08:23, RJH wrote:
On 21/04/2017 11:21, wrote:
On 21/04/2017 08:04, RJH wrote:
On 21/04/2017 00:04,
wrote:
On 20/04/2017 17:23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Brian Reay
wrote:

On 19/04/2017 19:47, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was
impressive, so
quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or
does
the
motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner the
optimum
speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.

We looked at the Tesla and were told it didn't have a gear box.

We decided against all electric, we don't like the idea of being
stuck
with a 'flat' battery on a journey. The idea of stopping for 'top
ups'
on a long journey is fine until you consider the practical aspects.

As a matter of interest, is anyone looking (as in considering
making) a
hybrid electric? As in, rather than having a powerful petrol engine, a
less powerful electric motor, a normal size fuel tank and a smaller
battery (like my Toyota Auris), instead have a full-size electric
motor, larger battery, but with a small petrol engine and small fuel
tank?

That way one could stop anywhere to recharge or even do it on the go.

A few months ago I went through the EV search, I think the ones with
small ICEs are called Range Extenders. I decided on a plug-in hybrid
and
am very pleased with it - 208HP ICE and 80HP electric motor driving a
seven speed auto box with some magic arrangement of clutches that
allows
one or both to drive, or neither, or to use the motor for regen
braking.
All very clever but probably a maintenance nightmare when it gets old.

BMW 3 series? A friend has one and likes it.

No, it's a M-B C350E estate.


About the same price as the BMW - surprised, thought it'd be a fair bit
more.

They're quite expensive but a lot of spreadsheet what-ifs showed that
buying it in a company was cheaper over 3 years than buying an
equivalent 2-3 year old petrol or diesel (hisss ;-) ) car and running
that privately for 3 years, this was allowing for all factors (including
depreciation). I've been very pleased with it so far.


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On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:49:22 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:44:26 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

I think they used to run pairs of motors in parallel on starting and
switch over to series at higher speeds. That was some time ago and I
don't know if they still do.


If true, the sequence would have been series for starting, then
paralleled for 'cruise speed'. Effectively a two speed "Electric
Gearbox"
created out of nothing more sophisticated than a cleverly sequenced
bunch of contactor switches.


It is quite true, though the actual method is somewhat more complicated.
I was about to start writing a description, but it is covered rather
well he

http://www.railway-technical.com/tract-01.shtml

Although the article mentions pretty well all aspects of DC motor
control as historically employed for railway locomotion, the use of a
journalistic style over a technical authoring one resulted in a confusion
of descriptive terms (eg currents instead of magnetic fields and the
impression that the [armature] windings on the rotor were wound *around*
the rotor shaft).

Although the author 'loses points' for the use of confusing terms, he
does gain points for his comprehensive coverage of the difficulties,
imposed by the limitations of the technology of the day, facing the
designers in their attempts to recover the braking energy for use by
other trains on the line.

--
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Johnny B Good wrote:

Although the article mentions pretty well all aspects of DC motor
control as historically employed for railway locomotion, the use of a
journalistic style over a technical authoring one resulted in a confusion
of descriptive terms (eg currents instead of magnetic fields and the
impression that the [armature] windings on the rotor were wound *around*
the rotor shaft).

Although the author 'loses points' for the use of confusing terms, he
does gain points for his comprehensive coverage of the difficulties,
imposed by the limitations of the technology of the day, facing the
designers in their attempts to recover the braking energy for use by
other trains on the line.


OK, if you want a bit more reading, try these

Principles of Direct Current Electric Traction

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.288435

Electric Traction

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.19338

Chris
--
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On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 19:16:52 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

Although the article mentions pretty well all aspects of DC motor
control as historically employed for railway locomotion, the use of a
journalistic style over a technical authoring one resulted in a
confusion of descriptive terms (eg currents instead of magnetic fields
and the impression that the [armature] windings on the rotor were wound
*around* the rotor shaft).

Although the author 'loses points' for the use of confusing terms, he
does gain points for his comprehensive coverage of the difficulties,
imposed by the limitations of the technology of the day, facing the
designers in their attempts to recover the braking energy for use by
other trains on the line.


OK, if you want a bit more reading, try these

Principles of Direct Current Electric Traction

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.288435

Electric Traction

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.19338


Thank you for those links, Chris.

I had a quick look at the linked pdfs and they look an interesting read
so I've downloaded them for future reference. :-)

--
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Johnny B Good wrote:

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 19:16:52 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:


OK, if you want a bit more reading, try these

Principles of Direct Current Electric Traction

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.288435

Electric Traction

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.19338


Thank you for those links, Chris.

I had a quick look at the linked pdfs and they look an interesting read
so I've downloaded them for future reference. :-)


Yes,. When I started in the industry a colleague lent me Dover,
which had much of what I needed to know at the time. I did get a
photocopy of the entire volume, but somebody never returned it to
me :-(

Chris
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On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 2:47:29 PM UTC-4, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was impressive, so quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or does the motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner the optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.


What do you folks think about the company Adomani, which goes public tomorrow, with the symbol ADOM? I think their technology sounds pretty cool and Ive been reading everything I can find about the company recently, leading up to the IPO and Im pretty impressed already.

Id really like to get into this one on the ground floor because I have a strong feeling, based on the research Ive done, that this one is going to take off shortly out of the gate. So Id be really interested in hearing what others have to say about it.


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On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 2:47:29 PM UTC-4, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was impressive, so quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or does the motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner the optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.


What do you folks think about the company Adomani, which goes public tomorrow, with the symbol ADOM? I think their technology sounds pretty cool and Ive been reading everything I can find about the company recently, leading up to the IPO and Im pretty impressed already.

Id really like to get into this one on the ground floor because I have a strong feeling, based on the research Ive done, that this one is going to take off shortly out of the gate. So Id be really interested in hearing what others have to say about it.
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wrote:

What do you folks think about the company


Haven't you heard? Stock spam stopped working in 2011

https://youtu.be/ytDamqTjPwg
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wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 2:47:29 PM UTC-4, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was impressive, so
quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or does the
motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner the
optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.


What do you folks think about the company Adomani, which goes public
tomorrow, with the symbol ADOM? I think their technology sounds pretty cool
and I've been reading everything I can find about the company recently,
leading up to the IPO and I'm pretty impressed already.

I'd really like to get into this one on the ground floor because I have a
strong feeling, based on the research I've done, that this one is going to
take off shortly out of the gate. So I'd be really interested in hearing
what others have to say about it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you are new to this UK group, you should write in a UK style and don't
give away your foreign UTC time-zone. If your company can't produce a better
script, I doubt it can produce a better car.
--
Dave W


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wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 2:47:29 PM UTC-4, Murmansk wrote:
I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was impressive,
so quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or does
the motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner the
optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.


What do you folks think about the company Adomani, which goes public
tomorrow, with the symbol ADOM? I think their technology sounds pretty
cool and Ive been reading everything I can find about the company
recently, leading up to the IPO and Im pretty impressed already.

Id really like to get into this one on the ground floor because I have a
strong feeling, based on the research Ive done, that this one is going
to take off shortly out of the gate. So Id be really interested in
hearing what others have to say about it.


I've heard that it's complete and utter ****. Don't waste your money.

Seriously, do you think we're too gormless to spot such flagrant spamming?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls
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