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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Following help in previous postings I have finally installed my new 17Ahr Yuasa battery in parallel to the existing 7Ahr battery in my alarm box. (£38 including delivery from Maplin!) All looks fine, but can I check on one thing - When connecting the new battery there are a increased hmmmm coming from the box. This is just the transforming starting to charge my new (and presumably not fully charged) battery, isn't it? Its nothing to worry about is it? Because I have added the extra battery it is just going to take longer to charge, but there is no other consideration for the charger is there? Just checking :-) -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
#2
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Hi Redtag,
I don't know the reasons why or what panel the 17Ah battery is connected to, but I would disconnect it now!! If you are referring to a domestic intruder alarm panel, most only have the ability to charge a 7Ah battery, also, you have connected in parallel batteries of differing capacity which must not be done due to issues of equalisation of charge etc. Regards Ian "Redtag" wrote in message news Following help in previous postings I have finally installed my new 17Ahr Yuasa battery in parallel to the existing 7Ahr battery in my alarm box. (£38 including delivery from Maplin!) All looks fine, but can I check on one thing - When connecting the new battery there are a increased hmmmm coming from the box. This is just the transforming starting to charge my new (and presumably not fully charged) battery, isn't it? Its nothing to worry about is it? Because I have added the extra battery it is just going to take longer to charge, but there is no other consideration for the charger is there? Just checking :-) -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
#3
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Redtag wrote:
Following help in previous postings I have finally installed my new 17Ahr Yuasa battery in parallel to the existing 7Ahr battery in my alarm box. (£38 including delivery from Maplin!) All looks fine, but can I check on one thing - When connecting the new battery there are a increased hmmmm coming from the box. This is just the transforming starting to charge my new (and presumably not fully charged) battery, isn't it? Its nothing to worry about is it? Because I have added the extra battery it is just going to take longer to charge, but there is no other consideration for the charger is there? Just checking :-) Hehe - I like your thinking. The 17Ah battery will have a much lower internal resistance than your 7Ah. It will draw a much higher current when charging (unless the charger is constant current, which would be strange for lead acids). Having them both in parallel almost guarantees that your charger (the thing that's humming) will die soon. Remove the 17Ah, and just have the 7Ah as was. If you really need more capacity, you need to build a suitable charging circuit. -- Grunff |
#4
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
I agree with the other two - 7Amp max m8
-- Regards SantaUK Mail me at: arjf (ng) zzvyyne (qbg) pb (qbg) hx === ROT13 Use http://andrewu.co.uk/tools/rot13/ to convert to readable format "Redtag" wrote in message news Following help in previous postings I have finally installed my new 17Ahr Yuasa battery in parallel to the existing 7Ahr battery in my alarm box. (£38 including delivery from Maplin!) All looks fine, but can I check on one thing - When connecting the new battery there are a increased hmmmm coming from the box. This is just the transforming starting to charge my new (and presumably not fully charged) battery, isn't it? Its nothing to worry about is it? Because I have added the extra battery it is just going to take longer to charge, but there is no other consideration for the charger is there? Just checking :-) -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
#5
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
"Redtag" wrote in message news Following help in previous postings I have finally installed my new 17Ahr Yuasa battery in parallel to the existing 7Ahr battery in my alarm box. (£38 including delivery from Maplin!) All looks fine, but can I check on one thing - When connecting the new battery there are a increased hmmmm coming from the box. This is just the transforming starting to charge my new (and presumably not fully charged) battery, isn't it? Its nothing to worry about is it? Because I have added the extra battery it is just going to take longer to charge, but there is no other consideration for the charger is there? Just checking :-) -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ hi there, i must agree with the person who said that putting batteries of this type in parrallel is not a good thing for the stated reasons. however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. so i would say disconnect the small battery and the large one will be ok (just take longer to attain the full, float charge voltage so the charger will be putting out its max current for longer) regards bob |
#6
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Ok, thanks everybody. My new 17Ahr is now disconnected :-) Hope it was not too late! So, how should I do this? I want to add more capacity for those long winter power cuts we get out here in the country and I thought dropping in a new battery would be just the job. How should I add my new battery? I don't mind buying a new charger but how should I connect it in relation to the other battery and charger. Thanks On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:09 -0000, Crooksie wrote: "Redtag" wrote in message news Following help in previous postings I have finally installed my new 17Ahr Yuasa battery in parallel to the existing 7Ahr battery in my alarm box. (£38 including delivery from Maplin!) All looks fine, but can I check on one thing - When connecting the new battery there are a increased hmmmm coming from the box. This is just the transforming starting to charge my new (and presumably not fully charged) battery, isn't it? Its nothing to worry about is it? Because I have added the extra battery it is just going to take longer to charge, but there is no other consideration for the charger is there? Just checking :-) -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ hi there, i must agree with the person who said that putting batteries of this type in parrallel is not a good thing for the stated reasons. however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. so i would say disconnect the small battery and the large one will be ok (just take longer to attain the full, float charge voltage so the charger will be putting out its max current for longer) regards bob -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
#7
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:09 -0000, "Crooksie"
wrote: however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. This assumes the charger circuitry lasts that long. A lot of alarm panels are of dubious quality and I suspect the charge circuit is designed to sustain its maximum output for only a relatively short time. Making it work at max output for several times the expected time may well cause things to overheat and expire. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#8
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
"Peter Parry" wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:09 -0000, "Crooksie" wrote: however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. This assumes the charger circuitry lasts that long. A lot of alarm panels are of dubious quality and I suspect the charge circuit is designed to sustain its maximum output for only a relatively short time. Making it work at max output for several times the expected time may well cause things to overheat and expire. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ hi there, well peter the internal charger will definatly have some form of current limiter circuit and 'should' be quite capable of sustaining the max current indefinatly. it matters not how big the capacity of the battery is, this max current is fixed. the only thing that will vary is the charging time. however if the unit is of dubious quality as you suggest who knows bob |
#9
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
hi there, i must agree with the person who said that putting batteries of this type in parrallel is not a good thing for the stated reasons. however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. so i would say disconnect the small battery and the large one will be ok (just take longer to attain the full, float charge voltage so the charger will be putting out its max current for longer) regards bob ********. The PSU is simply not capable of charging this capacity and it should be disconnected NOW. |
#10
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
"Redtag" wrote in message news Ok, thanks everybody. My new 17Ahr is now disconnected :-) Hope it was not too late! So, how should I do this? I want to add more capacity for those long winter power cuts we get out here in the country and I thought dropping in a new battery would be just the job. How should I add my new battery? I don't mind buying a new charger but how should I connect it in relation to the other battery and charger. OK, You can either do it properly or do it cheaply. The proper way would be to have a proper rated PSU/charger in a proper steel cabinet with the battery. Quite expensive. The cheap way would be to have a large battery like your 17Ah or a car battery (that way you can go as big as you like!) and have it on a trickle charger - although the best way is to simply charge it up ready for use as it'll hold a charge for many months without trickle. Now then PLEASE don't connect it to you alarm panel cos your alarm panel will go bang. Instead you can wire in a relay so that if your mains fails the relay will switch from alarm battery to car battery. The problem is that during switch over the panel may activate (alarm) due to PIR's etc. dropping out of circuit. The SAB too may operate causing a tamper fault. The real proper way would be to have a control circuit which would monitor the panel O/P voltage and bring in the car battery at a suitable level. All very messy. If I was in your situation where you are expecting lots of power cuts I would probably do away with the panel battery and disable the panel charging circuit (usually a simple matter of cutting a link or resistor - speak to the manufacturer) and then just connect a fully charged large battery to the panel making sure a proper fuse arrangement exists in the battery feed. That way the panel won't need to charge anything but will have a damn good standby power source in the event of a mains failure. You do need to ensure that the cutting of any charging links does allow the battery to power the panel. Older panels had a marked link on the PCB for dry cell batteries but that was many moons ago. Remember too that any short circuit of a large battery will melt the wiring so please fuse well. |
#11
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:18:32 -0000, PJO wrote:
OK, You can either do it properly or do it cheaply. The proper way would be to have a proper rated PSU/charger in a proper steel cabinet with the battery. Quite expensive. Pete, I am fine with doing it properly - it will still be cheaper than the £228+VAT that the alarm people wanted! If I do source the properly rated charger (a 3A one should do it) then how to I connect this? I would still like to keep the existing 7Ahr battery, and add this in parallel but if I do this then how to I charge it? I want to do as little as possible in "their" cabinet and to add my own with this new battery. Cheers |
#12
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
"PJO" wrote in message
... , Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ hi there, i must agree with the person who said that putting batteries of this type in parrallel is not a good thing for the stated reasons. however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. so i would say disconnect the small battery and the large one will be ok (just take longer to attain the full, float charge voltage so the charger will be putting out its max current for longer) regards bob ********. The PSU is simply not capable of charging this capacity and it should be disconnected NOW. Even with the lower-capacity battery the panel is designed for its power supply/charger is going to have to sustain its max output current for many hours: long enough to cook a poorly designed PSU (not that I'm saying the PSU might not be poorly designed :-). So with the larger battery the PSU _should_ not suffer. Putting two batteries of different ages and capacities in parallel is probably not a good idea. If you want a serious backup supply (maybe for emergency lights as well as the panel) you could get a caravan/boat leisure battery (circa £30 for 85AH from motorists discount centres) and a charger from Argos (£25 IIRC) which will drop back to a maintenance charge for maintaining a float supply. -- John Stumbles -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ -+ Thank God I'm an atheist |
#13
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Peter Parry writes
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:09 -0000, "Crooksie" wrote: however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. This assumes the charger circuitry lasts that long. A lot of alarm panels are of dubious quality and I suspect the charge circuit is designed to sustain its maximum output for only a relatively short time. Making it work at max output for several times the expected time may well cause things to overheat and expire. I suspect the extra hum from your kit may be due to some metalwork getting slightly re-positioned by accident, and is nothing to worry about. Or there could be a problem not associated with the new battery that does need worrying about! It is unlikely IME that fitting the 17AH battery as well as or instead of the 7AH will have any adverse effect. [as long as it is not faulty] If you are worried about it, just put a 10 ohm 5 watt resistor in the +ve lead between the new battery and the rest of the system. I really wouldn't go for separate chargers etc -- roger del x's to email |
#14
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
In article ,
PJO wrote: ********. The PSU is simply not capable of charging this capacity and it should be disconnected NOW. The charger for a sealed lead acid device should be constant voltage, and will restrict the amount of charging current. -- *A closed mouth gathers no feet.* Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#15
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
"Redtag" wrote in message news On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:18:32 -0000, PJO wrote: OK, You can either do it properly or do it cheaply. The proper way would be to have a proper rated PSU/charger in a proper steel cabinet with the battery. Quite expensive. Pete, I am fine with doing it properly - it will still be cheaper than the £228+VAT that the alarm people wanted! If I do source the properly rated charger (a 3A one should do it) then how to I connect this? I would still like to keep the existing 7Ahr battery, and add this in parallel but if I do this then how to I charge it? I want to do as little as possible in "their" cabinet and to add my own with this new battery. Cheers Get hold of a Power Supply Unit / Charger that will comfortably take your 17 A/hr battery, and comes complete with a relay switch that operates on mains failure. The relay should be wired with the open no voltage contacts connected to your alarm panel. The voltage side of the relay will be connected from charger to battery when mains power is present, and then drop from battery to appliance if a mains failure occurs. These people should be able to point you in the right direction: http://www.ktassemblies.co.uk/products.html |
#16
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
If I do source the properly rated charger (a 3A one should do it) then how
to I connect this? I would still like to keep the existing 7Ahr battery, and add this in parallel but if I do this then how to I charge it? I want to do as little as possible in "their" cabinet and to add my own with this new battery. You really do need to read properly (!!). You CANNOT connect the large battery in parallel with your 7Ah - period. If you do as some say and use a standby PSU with a relay (I mentioned this too) then the alarm will probably activate on change over as the PIR's etc will go into alarm, the SAB will operate and the panel may go into "power up" in which case it'll activate itself too!!!! If you do away with your 7Ah and just use the large battery in "dry cell" mode then all will be well. Reading between the lines... is you alarm on a maintenance contract? because if it is then you obviously can't cut the charging link out although you could always cancel the contract and come here for advice when it fails! Others have suggested a caravan battery - brilliant idea. A boat battery is another. These are designed to hold a charge for many months without use and a gel filled as opposed to liquid acid. You can buy a simple "battery maintainer" from the likes of halfords for around £20 and that will keep the battery topped up OR, if you're into playing, buy a small windmill charger like boat owners use and use that to keep the battery up to scratch! In any event you need to discard the 7Ah! |
#17
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
In article ,
PJO wrote: You really do need to read properly (!!). You CANNOT connect the large battery in parallel with your 7Ah - period. It's common with caravans. You use a diode between them to stop one discharging the other. -- *If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done? Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#18
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Redtag wrote:
Ok, thanks everybody. My new 17Ahr is now disconnected :-) Hope it was not too late! I really think everyne overreacted. Lead acid chargers are just a voltage source in series with a resistance. Using one that delivers less merely means the float charge is slower, and teh batteries take longer to recharge out of an outage. My guess is you have panicked needlessly. |
#19
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:09 -0000, "Crooksie" wrote: however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. This assumes the charger circuitry lasts that long. A lot of alarm panels are of dubious quality and I suspect the charge circuit is designed to sustain its maximum output for only a relatively short time. Making it work at max output for several times the expected time may well cause things to overheat and expire. May, but not will. But I doubt it. What a partially dicsharged battery looks like is a low voltage source in series with a bit of resistance - fairly negligible in comparison to the charge currents being used. What happens if you stick a bigger battery in the vcharge circuit is that it will run at the same charge current (cos its voltage is the same) for longer. I have xcharged car batteries with trickle chargers from one amp up to 15 amps. The battery is no different. The little chargers will still charge the bigger batteries. Just takes a couple of days, is all. Any charger is going to run full charge on all butteh smallest cells for at least an hour...and if it hasn't blown in an hour, it won't blow in three...its up to working temp in that hour. |
#20
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
PJO wrote:
********. The PSU is simply not capable of charging this capacity and it should be disconnected NOW. ******** is right. Any cahrger will be able to charge any similar construcytion battery of a HIGHER capacity. The daneger is over charging a small battery. Under - or cvery slow charging - of a larger is never a problem, unless the charger simply never gets it to charge at all.. Ive charged bloody lorry batteries on a cheap 1A charger designed for scooters etc. No probs at all, if you don't mind waiting some days... |
#21
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
"roger" wrote in message ... Peter Parry writes On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:09 -0000, "Crooksie" wrote: however the internal charger in the alarm panel will be a constant voltage type with current limiting, designed to float charge the battery, this means that the current will reduce to a small float level (trickle) when the battery has fully charged. This assumes the charger circuitry lasts that long. A lot of alarm panels are of dubious quality and I suspect the charge circuit is designed to sustain its maximum output for only a relatively short time. Making it work at max output for several times the expected time may well cause things to overheat and expire. I suspect the extra hum from your kit may be due to some metalwork getting slightly re-positioned by accident, and is nothing to worry about. Or there could be a problem not associated with the new battery that does need worrying about! It is unlikely IME that fitting the 17AH battery as well as or instead of the 7AH will have any adverse effect. [as long as it is not faulty] If you are worried about it, just put a 10 ohm 5 watt resistor in the +ve lead between the new battery and the rest of the system. I really wouldn't go for separate chargers etc roger And I wouldn't let you look after my alarm system. :-)) --- http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/03 |
#22
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Redtag wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:18:32 -0000, PJO wrote: OK, You can either do it properly or do it cheaply. The proper way would be to have a proper rated PSU/charger in a proper steel cabinet with the battery. Quite expensive. Pete, I am fine with doing it properly - it will still be cheaper than the £228+VAT that the alarm people wanted! Don't listen to him. He is seriously talking through his arse. If your charger didn't go bandg withing 5 minutes of hooking up the bigger battery, I would lay you odds of 50:1 that it will never go bang in a day or five, or however long it takes. If you are concerned, charge the bigger battery up elsewhere, and then comnect it fully charged. |
#23
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
John Stumbles wrote:
Even with the lower-capacity battery the panel is designed for its power supply/charger is going to have to sustain its max output current for many hours: long enough to cook a poorly designed PSU (not that I'm saying the PSU might not be poorly designed :-). So with the larger battery the PSU _should_ not suffer. At last, some common sense! Putting two batteries of different ages and capacities in parallel is probably not a good idea. Not especially, but not as dire as you think. If you want a serious backup supply (maybe for emergency lights as well as the panel) you could get a caravan/boat leisure battery (circa £30 for 85AH from motorists discount centres) and a charger from Argos (£25 IIRC) which will drop back to a maintenance charge for maintaining a float supply. Overkill, but a neat idea. |
#24
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
PJO wrote:
If I do source the properly rated charger (a 3A one should do it) then how to I connect this? I would still like to keep the existing 7Ahr battery, and add this in parallel but if I do this then how to I charge it? I want to do as little as possible in "their" cabinet and to add my own with this new battery. You really do need to read properly (!!). You CANNOT connect the large battery in parallel with your 7Ah - period. You can actually. Lots of things like cars and caravans regularly connect the batteries in parallel. They charge just fine. They even discharge just fine, but its obviously advantaegous in e,g. a camper to discnnect teh primary engine battery from teh camper to ensure you can start the engine the next day if you flatten the lesiure cells. |
#25
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Lots of things like cars and caravans regularly connect the batteries in parallel. They charge just fine. They even discharge just fine, but its obviously advantaegous in e,g. a camper to discnnect teh primary engine battery from teh camper to ensure you can start the engine the next day if you flatten the lesiure cells. There are diodes available that do this automagically... -- *Why isn't there mouse-flavoured cat food? Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#26
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
In article ,
PJO wrote: ********. The PSU is simply not capable of charging this capacity and it should be disconnected NOW. Lead acid cells have a *very* low resistance when discharged and without some form of current limiting between a simple charger and the battery - even just a resistor - they would draw a very large current indeed, far more than the puny power supply in an alarm could hope to supply. -- *I have my own little world - but it's OK...they know me here* Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#27
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... Peter Parry wrote: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:09 -0000, "Crooksie" wrote: snipped time. Making it work at max output for several times the expected time may well cause things to overheat and expire. May, but not will. But I doubt it. What a partially dicsharged battery looks like is a low voltage source in series with a bit of resistance - fairly negligible in comparison to the charge currents being used. What happens if you stick a bigger battery in the vcharge circuit is that it will run at the same charge current (cos its voltage is the same) for longer. I have xcharged car batteries with trickle chargers from one amp up to 15 amps. The battery is no different. The little chargers will still charge the bigger batteries. Just takes a couple of days, is all. Any charger is going to run full charge on all butteh smallest cells for at least an hour...and if it hasn't blown in an hour, it won't blow in three...its up to working temp in that hour. The alarm panel will only have a transformer that supplies just enough to keep things going at their designed working ratings, so making it work harder can, and will, make it overheat inside the casing. This rise in temperature inside the casing can, and will, have bad effects on other components. Most panel instructions will give a maximum battery capacity allowed for that design of power supply, so to increase this capacity can, and will, have effects on the design of the system and will void any warranty. The charger system may well be a voltage / current source with a bit of resistance, but you have to take into consideration the environment that the source and resistance are working in. The system expels heat into its surrounding space. The space within, and the connected heat dissipation appliances, should be enough to safely exhaust that heat away from the appliance. Increase the heat, or close in the space, and you have to consider what effect these change will have within the working parameters that have already been designed into the system. The increase in the "HUM" sound heard, probably means the power supply is working harder to keep the increase in battery capacity up to the system ratings. So this means an increase in heat produced by the power system. This increase is probably not designed for by the makers, so it can, and will, effect the designed for working state of the system. The power supply is rated to take what the makers allow for in the design of the panel, so making changes to these parameters will affect what is allowed for in the design. If the power supply has to work harder at charging the battery, then it is probably not supplying other parts of the system with the correct power source they need to work properly. --- http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/03 |
#28
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Putting two batteries of different ages and capacities in parallel is probably not a good idea. Not especially, but not as dire as you think. My Gunson charger says it's fine to put two batteries in parallel on a float charger (assumes that neither has any disastrous sort of fault of course). -- Chris Green ) |
#29
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Don't listen to him. He is seriously talking through his arse. If your charger didn't go bandg withing 5 minutes of hooking up the bigger battery, I would lay you odds of 50:1 that it will never go bang in a day or five, or however long it takes. If you are concerned, charge the bigger battery up elsewhere, and then comnect it fully charged. More ****e from the philosopher above! We're talking a 1A psu here... not a car or a caravan. I have seen overloaded PSU's burn out after months but burn out they do - fact. |
#30
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Lots of things like cars and caravans regularly connect the batteries in parallel. They charge just fine. They even discharge just fine, but its obviously advantaegous in e,g. a camper to discnnect teh primary engine battery from teh camper to ensure you can start the engine the next day if you flatten the lesiure cells. Fine BUT we're talking low current capability alarm here - nit car. |
#31
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
My Gunson charger says it's fine to put two batteries in parallel on a float charger (assumes that neither has any disastrous sort of fault of course). But is that refering to two batteries of the same capacity? I would strongly advise th OP not to connect the two batteries together here... Sparks... |
#32
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Dave Plowman wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: Lots of things like cars and caravans regularly connect the batteries in parallel. They charge just fine. They even discharge just fine, but its obviously advantaegous in e,g. a camper to discnnect teh primary engine battery from teh camper to ensure you can start the engine the next day if you flatten the lesiure cells. There are diodes available that do this automagically... There are relays that do it 10000% better automgically. Diodes DON'T work BTW. You need full volts on charge, not full volts -0.6v or whatever. |
#33
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Dave Plowman wrote:
In article , PJO wrote: ********. The PSU is simply not capable of charging this capacity and it should be disconnected NOW. Lead acid cells have a *very* low resistance when discharged and without some form of current limiting between a simple charger and the battery - even just a resistor - they would draw a very large current indeed, far more than the puny power supply in an alarm could hope to supply. So what happens when the puny power supply comes across a discharged 7A/h battery? ALL lead acid chargers are current limited in some way. Not all are capable of handling a direct short, but a fully dicsharged battery is not a dead short. Its a plastic bin job. Its finished as a battery. No lead acid battery is ever fully discharged in operational life. Only right at the very end of its operational life :-) |
#34
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
PJO wrote:
Don't listen to him. He is seriously talking through his arse. If your charger didn't go bandg withing 5 minutes of hooking up the bigger battery, I would lay you odds of 50:1 that it will never go bang in a day or five, or however long it takes. If you are concerned, charge the bigger battery up elsewhere, and then comnect it fully charged. More ****e from the philosopher above! Yeah. Mire ****e from aan electronics designeer of some 320 years experience, and who has spent more time charging batteries in teh last two years than he is prepared to mention. **** off. We're talking a 1A psu here... not a car or a caravan. So? The principles are the same. They aen't to YOU, of course, beacuse your understanding is totally limited. I have seen overloaded PSU's burn out after months but burn out they do - fact. I have seen things burn out in micro seconds, millisecond, seconds, hours, minutes days, months and years. All for different reasons. Most of which I ecventually identified, since it was part of my job to do so. Your statement says nothing. |
#35
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
PJO wrote:
Lots of things like cars and caravans regularly connect the batteries in parallel. They charge just fine. They even discharge just fine, but its obviously advantaegous in e,g. a camper to discnnect teh primary engine battery from teh camper to ensure you can start the engine the next day if you flatten the lesiure cells. Fine BUT we're talking low current capability alarm here - nit car. So what? The principles - that its fine to slap two lead acid batteries in parallel to both charge and discharge, holds. Just examine the voltage current characterists of lead acid accumulators, under both carge and discharge, do the maths, and work it out for yourself. If you are capable. |
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Sparks wrote:
My Gunson charger says it's fine to put two batteries in parallel on a float charger (assumes that neither has any disastrous sort of fault of course). But is that refering to two batteries of the same capacity? No. Whast happens in practice is that the voltage obviously settles around a common point. However you have to over voltage to charge, and under discharge, the volts drop, so there is no huge explosion when you e.g. stick jump leads on a car to start it, even if you use a tractor battery to do it (provided its not a 24 or 48v battery of course). Under charge, the voltage rises...the more discharged battery will hog current till both batteries are at an eqqual state of charge, concomitant with the applied voltage. At that point they appear as a simple larger single battery. And stay that way until seperated. The only remaining issue is one of peak current. But any abttery has a pretty low impedance, so teh charger will be designed to supply a certain current to a certain voltage that reflects teh discharge state of teh battery. It doesn't KNOW how big the battery is. It just KNOWS that a 60% flat battery will be at - say - 12.5V under charge, and it will deliver its rated current to that voltage whatever. The cfact that the OP's charge hummed a bit merely shows the battery was fairly discharged. Unless you are into super fast charging (one hour or less) currents will never be high enough to risk battery damage, and the current into a larger battery will be no higher. The greater danger is over currenting a small battery. I would strongly advise th OP not to connect the two batteries together here... Sparks... |
#37
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Lead acid cells have a *very* low resistance when discharged and without some form of current limiting between a simple charger and the battery - even just a resistor - they would draw a very large current indeed, far more than the puny power supply in an alarm could hope to supply. So what happens when the puny power supply comes across a discharged 7A/h battery? It has some form of limiting built in to restrict the charge current to what it can cope with. A simple lead acid battery charger is a DC source of around 16 volts open circuit with a suitable series resistor. Of course modern ones will have some electronics. ALL lead acid chargers are current limited in some way. Not all are capable of handling a direct short, but a fully dicsharged battery is not a dead short. Didn't say it was - I said it had a very low internal resistance - and any practical lead acid battery would take more than a burglar alarm power supply could provide without some form of limiting. Its a plastic bin job. Its finished as a battery. No lead acid battery is ever fully discharged in operational life. Only right at the very end of its operational life :-) -- *Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired. Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#38
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: There are diodes available that do this automagically... There are relays that do it 10000% better automgically. Diodes DON'T work BTW. You need full volts on charge, not full volts -0.6v or whatever. Wonder why they're sold expressly for this purpose, then? -- *If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#39
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
But is that refering to two batteries of the same capacity?
No. Whast happens in practice is that the voltage obviously settles around a common point. However you have to over voltage to charge, and under discharge, the volts drop, so there is no huge explosion when you e.g. stick jump leads on a car to start it, even if you use a tractor battery to do it (provided its not a 24 or 48v battery of course). Under charge, the voltage rises...the more discharged battery will hog current till both batteries are at an eqqual state of charge, concomitant with the applied voltage. At that point they appear as a simple larger single battery. And stay that way until seperated. The only remaining issue is one of peak current. But any abttery has a pretty low impedance, so teh charger will be designed to supply a certain current to a certain voltage that reflects teh discharge state of teh battery. It doesn't KNOW how big the battery is. It just KNOWS that a 60% flat battery will be at - say - 12.5V under charge, and it will deliver its rated current to that voltage whatever. The cfact that the OP's charge hummed a bit merely shows the battery was fairly discharged. Unless you are into super fast charging (one hour or less) currents will never be high enough to risk battery damage, and the current into a larger battery will be no higher. The greater danger is over currenting a small battery. OK, say this happens... The small battery is flat The large one isn't The large battery will charge the small one until they are at equal states of charge Trouble is, there is no current limiting in between the two batteries, so the small one will be charged at "cor blimey" amps, which is not good for the battery, or the wires interconnecting them. Caravans and boats have a special split charging system, so this doesn't happen. Look in any multi battery UPS, and you will see the batteries are all connected in series, not parallel because of this. As people have said before, just connecting the big battery will be OK if the charging circuit is of a suitable quality, prolong periods of higher current charging *WILL* cause the voltage regulator to heat up more than it would with a smaller battery Things are made cheaply, so they will just about do the job they were made for, but no more - I recently bought a cheap electric car tyre inflator, there are warnings you need to only use it for a shot while, then turn it off to cool, then you can use it again - yes it will inflate a tractor tyre, but not in one hit - it would overheat - the same may well go for the charger! Sparks... |
#40
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Installed new battery backup for home alarm
Sparks wrote:
But is that refering to two batteries of the same capacity? No. Whast happens in practice is that the voltage obviously settles around a common point. However you have to over voltage to charge, and under discharge, the volts drop, so there is no huge explosion when you e.g. stick jump leads on a car to start it, even if you use a tractor battery to do it (provided its not a 24 or 48v battery of course). Under charge, the voltage rises...the more discharged battery will hog current till both batteries are at an eqqual state of charge, concomitant with the applied voltage. At that point they appear as a simple larger single battery. And stay that way until seperated. The only remaining issue is one of peak current. But any abttery has a pretty low impedance, so teh charger will be designed to supply a certain current to a certain voltage that reflects teh discharge state of teh battery. It doesn't KNOW how big the battery is. It just KNOWS that a 60% flat battery will be at - say - 12.5V under charge, and it will deliver its rated current to that voltage whatever. The cfact that the OP's charge hummed a bit merely shows the battery was fairly discharged. Unless you are into super fast charging (one hour or less) currents will never be high enough to risk battery damage, and the current into a larger battery will be no higher. The greater danger is over currenting a small battery. OK, say this happens... The small battery is flat The large one isn't The large battery will charge the small one until they are at equal states of charge Trouble is, there is no current limiting in between the two batteries, so the small one will be charged at "cor blimey" amps, which is not good for the battery, or the wires interconnecting them. Actually there is a considerable amount of current limiting. Due to the fact that a battery that is off charge is - say - at 12.5v, where as it takes over 14V to charge it at any sort of current. Go and do some real world tests on voltage versus current in both directions - charge and discharge - and then come back with figures to justify your statement. Caravans and boats have a special split charging system, so this doesn't happen. Look in any multi battery UPS, and you will see the batteries are all connected in series, not parallel because of this. Its not ideal to parallel batteries agreed, because its cheaper to get bigger ones and put them in series instead. However, it works. As people have said before, just connecting the big battery will be OK if the charging circuit is of a suitable quality, prolong periods of higher current charging *WILL* cause the voltage regulator to heat up more than it would with a smaller battery No, that agian is untrue. At a given discharged satte, the chargingf curent on a big, or little, battery will be almost identical. Unless teh charger is rekyung in thermal inertia for its sole source of cooling, it will rise exponetntially to a temperature concomitant to its power dissipation and the rate it can get rid of heat. A mass of concrtete surrounded by a ploystryrene box may take longer to get hot, than an empty box, but it doesn't get any less hot for the same continuous power input... Things are made cheaply, so they will just about do the job they were made for, but no more - I recently bought a cheap electric car tyre inflator, there are warnings you need to only use it for a shot while, then turn it off to cool, then you can use it again - yes it will inflate a tractor tyre, but not in one hit - it would overheat - the same may well go for the charger! So you reckon that the alarm charger hasn't got fully hot in an 20 hours of trickle charging its battery? Strange world you live in. Sparks... |
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