This is a gridswitch that clusters all the kitchen appliances in one
convenient gridswitch with all appliances having their own specially
labelled rocker switch, and all together at one point.

One question is: Does this have to be in the kitchen, or can it be say a
cupboard under the stairs. the cupboard is in the hall which is next to the
kitchen.

The grid switch saves having ugly fused spurs for each appliance over the
worktops. Another question. Can an electric oven also be taken off one of
these gridswitches?
Another question. Can an the kitchen sockets also be taken off one of these
gridswitches?

http://www.mem500.co.uk/supergrid.html#1



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"IMM" wrote in message ...

This is a gridswitch that clusters all the kitchen appliances in one
convenient gridswitch with all appliances having their own specially
labelled rocker switch, and all together at one point.

One question is: Does this have to be in the kitchen, or can it be say a
cupboard under the stairs.

sockets dont have 2b switched at all, but can be. Sockets are also
much more flexible than FCUs.


Another question. Can an the kitchen sockets also be taken off one of these
gridswitches?

if the switches are sufficiently current rated, and the circuit
supplying them.
So yes if you do it right.


Regards, NT

On 30 Nov 2003 16:10:05 -0800, N. Thornton wrote:

One question is: Does this have to be in the kitchen, or can it be
say a cupboard under the stairs.

sockets dont have 2b switched at all, but can be. Sockets are also
much more flexible than FCUs.

Common sense safety and the regs to some extent could say that sockets
ought to be remotely switched if the plug is inaccessable in normal
use and that the switches ought to be close (same room) to the
socket/appliance they are controlling.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
. 1...
On 30 Nov 2003 16:10:05 -0800, N. Thornton wrote:

One question is: Does this have to be in the kitchen, or can it be
say a cupboard under the stairs.

sockets dont have 2b switched at all, but can be. Sockets are also
much more flexible than FCUs.

Common sense safety and the regs to some extent could say that sockets
ought to be remotely switched if the plug is inaccessable in normal
use and that the switches ought to be close (same room) to the
socket/appliance they are controlling.

So, for e.g., can a gridswitch be at the back of a kitchen cupboard? Anyone
know what the regs say about this?

A MEM Gridswitch 8000 eliminates the ugly collection of fused spurs over the
worktops, which is a lot of work to install, electrical and tiling. It
would be nice to have all aplinaces: oven, hob, w/m, etc on the gridswitch.

If this switch can be in the rear of say a top cupboard, maybe a small "sub"
CU would be the better option, with "all" kitchen appliances and sockets,
complete with microbreakers in CU fitted. Then the microbreakers can be
labelled as normal. This may be a cheaper option. Would this have to be
taken off the main breaker, rather than a large current microbreaker at the
existing main CU?



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So, for e.g., can a gridswitch be at the back of a kitchen cupboard?
Anyone know what the regs say about this?

Yes they can. The main issue is that a person servicing the appliances can
be said to be in control of the switches. Otherwise, the switches have to
have the facility to be padlocked off. You could possibly get round this by
suggesting that the unswitched socket provides DP isolation instead of the
grid switch, but it isn't best practice and can't be used if spurs are used
instead of sockets, or the socket isn't easily accessible.

Believe it or not, there are many cretins^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpeople, who seeing a
tripped circuit breaker or isolator will simply reset it without determining
that there isn't someone working on the circuit first.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

So, for e.g., can a gridswitch be at the back of a kitchen cupboard?
Anyone know what the regs say about this?

Yes they can. The main issue is that a person servicing the appliances can
be said to be in control of the switches. Otherwise, the switches have to
have the facility to be padlocked off.

That is if the gridswitchis not in the same room, I assume you mean.

You could possibly get round this by
suggesting that the unswitched socket
provides DP isolation instead of the
grid switch,

By removing the plug?

but it isn't best practice and can't be used if spurs are used
instead of sockets, or the socket isn't easily accessible.

Believe it or not, there are many cretins^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpeople, who seeing
a
tripped circuit breaker or isolator will simply reset it without
determining
that there isn't someone working on the circuit first.

Christian.



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That is if the gridswitchis not in the same room, I assume you mean.

Yes, and sufficiently nearby to be possible to swear in time at the w*nker
about to electrocute you.

You could possibly get round this by suggesting that the unswitched
socket provides DP isolation instead of the grid switch,

By removing the plug?

Indeed. Also, many sockets now incorporate DP switching, so I suspect that
such a modern switched socket would be appropriate too.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
That is if the gridswitchis not in the same room, I assume you mean.

Yes, and sufficiently nearby to be possible to swear in time at the w*nker
about to electrocute you.

You could possibly get round this by suggesting that the unswitched
socket provides DP isolation instead of the grid switch,

By removing the plug?

Indeed. Also, many sockets now incorporate DP switching, so I suspect that
such a modern switched socket would be appropriate too.

You need double pole isolation away from the appliance, especially if it is
integrated. So a gridswitch in the back of a normal cupboard should be
fine? Or is it, with the Cornflakes up against it?



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So a gridswitch in the back of a normal cupboard should be
fine? Or is it, with the Cornflakes up against it?

It is required for maintenance switching, not emergency use. So behind the
cornflakes should be OK, provided said cornflakes are near by.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

It is required for maintenance switching, not emergency use. So
behind the cornflakes should be OK, provided said cornflakes are
near by.

Can I disagree? Reg. 462-01-02 requires switches for mechanical maintenance
to be "suitably located in a readily accessible position". At the back of a
cupboard fails on both counts, IMHO.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

It is required for maintenance switching, not emergency use. So
behind the cornflakes should be OK, provided said cornflakes are
near by.

Can I disagree? Reg. 462-01-02 requires switches for mechanical
maintenance
to be "suitably located in a readily accessible position". At the back of
a
cupboard fails on both counts, IMHO.

How about in a cupboard under the stairs, in the hall next to the kitchen?
Basically, kitchen wall then staircase on the other side of the wall with
cupboard under.

Or in the cupboard under the sink.



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"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

It is required for maintenance switching, not emergency use. So
behind the cornflakes should be OK, provided said cornflakes are
near by.

Can I disagree? Reg. 462-01-02 requires switches for mechanical
maintenance
to be "suitably located in a readily accessible position". At the back of
a
cupboard fails on both counts, IMHO.

Those ugly electric oven isolators? Can they be in a cupboard under a sink?


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"IMM" wrote in message ...

How about in a cupboard under the stairs, in the hall next to the
kitchen? Basically, kitchen wall then staircase on the other side
of the wall with cupboard under.

Or in the cupboard under the sink.

None of the above. On a kitchen wall is where your grid-witch needs to go.
"Readily accessible" is what the regulation says.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message ...

How about in a cupboard under the stairs, in the hall next to the
kitchen? Basically, kitchen wall then staircase on the other side
of the wall with cupboard under.

Or in the cupboard under the sink.

None of the above. On a kitchen wall is where your grid-witch needs to
go.
"Readily accessible" is what the regulation says.

"Readily accessible", this sounds like the word "competent", which is open
to interpretation. If a kitchen has a built-in walk in cupboard complete
with door, and the gridswitch is on the walls there, I would say that is
"Readily accessible".


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"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message ...

How about in a cupboard under the stairs, in the hall next to the
kitchen? Basically, kitchen wall then staircase on the other side
of the wall with cupboard under.

Or in the cupboard under the sink.

None of the above. On a kitchen wall is where your grid-witch needs to
go.
"Readily accessible" is what the regulation says.

"Readily accessible", this sounds like the word "competent", which is open
to interpretation. If a kitchen has a built-in walk in cupboard complete
with door, and the gridswitch is on the walls there, I would say that is
"Readily accessible".


You are a strange, strange person. You asked a question and received a
sensible, correct reply from Andy and yet you wish to argue. "Readily
accessible" means just that. Not "readily accessible if you open the
cupboard door, move the Heinz ketchup bottle, stand on tippy toes and reach
to full stretch".
However, you (as always) know best and I look forward to your explanation in
court should there be an accident (you never know, you could get away with
it if you can convince the jury to accept the laws of physics / grammar as
applying on your planet)

"Frisket" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message ...

How about in a cupboard under the stairs, in the hall next to the
kitchen? Basically, kitchen wall then staircase on the other side
of the wall with cupboard under.

Or in the cupboard under the sink.

None of the above. On a kitchen wall is where your grid-witch needs
to
go.
"Readily accessible" is what the regulation says.

"Readily accessible", this sounds like the word "competent", which is
open
to interpretation. If a kitchen has a built-in walk in cupboard
complete
with door, and the gridswitch is on the walls there, I would say that is
"Readily accessible".


You are a strange, strange person.

far from it.

You asked a question and received a
sensible, correct reply from Andy and
yet you wish to argue.

With the interpretation of the regs not with Andy.

(you never know, you could get away with
it if you can convince the jury to accept the laws of physics / grammar as
applying on your planet)

You are odd!


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"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Frisket" wrote in message
...

snip

You asked a question and received a
sensible, correct reply from Andy and
yet you wish to argue.

With the interpretation of the regs not with Andy.


How is that not the same ?!!!...

In article ,
IMM wrote:
The grid switch saves having ugly fused spurs for each appliance over the
worktops.

Why would you use fused spurs? All appliances come with a plug which is
already fused.

--
*Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
The grid switch saves having ugly fused spurs for each appliance over
the
worktops.

Why would you use fused spurs? All appliances come with a plug which is
already fused.


Not very convenient if the fuse blows, haul out the appliance, un-plug and
change fuse, heave appliance back into place - apposed to use removing fuse
from face plate....

IMO all appliances should be wired in such a way. It's like plumbers placing
shut off valves to washing machine flexible intake pipes (for example)
behind the appliance - bloody useless if the flexible pipe leaks !...

"Jerry." wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Frisket" wrote in message
...

snip

You asked a question and received a
sensible, correct reply from Andy and
yet you wish to argue.

With the interpretation of the regs not with Andy.

How is that not the same ?!!!...

You are now having a laugh.


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"Jerry." wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
The grid switch saves having ugly fused spurs for each appliance over
the
worktops.

Why would you use fused spurs? All appliances come with a plug which is
already fused.

Not very convenient if the fuse blows, haul out the appliance, un-plug and
change fuse, heave appliance back into place - apposed to use removing
fuse
from face plate....

IMO all appliances should be wired in such a way. It's like plumbers
placing
shut off valves to washing machine flexible intake pipes (for example)
behind the appliance - bloody useless if the flexible pipe leaks !...

You will finds that electrical and plumbing regs say the isolating
switches/valve must be accessible. Once again, open to interpretation.
Fitting a washing machine valve directly behind is a no, no. In new
properties the valves, drain connections and electrical sockets are usually
under the sink. It generally looks a mess down there, especially if the
pipe/isolation valves are not fitted correctly. It is best to form a
manifold fitted as high as possible, with the isolation valves facing
downwards.

Fitting double pole switched sockets under a sink for all appliances would
eliminate the need for a fused spur up top.



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In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
Why would you use fused spurs? All appliances come with a plug which
is already fused.


Not very convenient if the fuse blows, haul out the appliance, un-plug
and change fuse, heave appliance back into place - apposed to use
removing fuse from face plate....

So you remove the plug from the appliance and hard wire it in? Bit of a
pain if you need to move it for cleaning etc. If it's still plugged in but
has a supplementary fuse in an FCU etc, you can bet your bottom dollar
that it's still the fuse in the plug that goes...

FWIW, all that faffing around for the unlikely event of a fuse blowing -
I've only ever had this happen once with kitchen appliances, and this
required removal of the appliance from its 'housing' to fix the fault
anyway, so being able to unplug it for servicing was far more of an
advantage.

As regards being able to isolate kitchen appliances via a wall switch -
again why bother? They all have off/on switches anyway. In the very
unlikely event of this failing and the appliance had to be shut off at the
same time urgently you could simply switch off the appropriate ring at the
CU.

IMO all appliances should be wired in such a way. It's like plumbers
placing shut off valves to washing machine flexible intake pipes (for
example) behind the appliance - bloody useless if the flexible pipe
leaks !...

That's rather different. You need shut off valves, so you should situate
them where they are easily accessible. And the same could be the case for
the socket feeding the machine. It doesn't have to be behind the machine
either.

--
*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

If it's still plugged in but has a supplementary fuse in an FCU
etc, you can bet your bottom dollar that it's still the fuse in
the plug that goes...

You could use unfused 15A round pin sockets off a fused spur.

Myself, I agree that having the fuse in the plug isn't a problem. I used a
20A DP switch instead of an FCU to avoid having two fuses, and allowing a
more pretty grid switch based solution that wouldn't take up too much space
on the tiles.

Christian.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Fitting double pole switched sockets under a sink for all appliances
would eliminate the need for a fused spur up top.

You don't need a switched socket at all. To isolate, simply unplug it.

--
*It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
If it's still plugged in but has a supplementary fuse in an FCU
etc, you can bet your bottom dollar that it's still the fuse in
the plug that goes...

You could use unfused 15A round pin sockets off a fused spur.

So you cut off one plug merely to substitute another? Sounds like a
solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Also, are suitable shuttered 15
amp sockets available, and at what cost?

Myself, I agree that having the fuse in the plug isn't a problem. I used
a 20A DP switch instead of an FCU to avoid having two fuses, and
allowing a more pretty grid switch based solution that wouldn't take up
too much space on the tiles.

That would make more sense if you really, really must have a separate
switch for your appliances. But I think it's just making work for the sake
of it - dedicated low situated sockets inside adjacent cupboards would be
my way if a re-wire was undertaken.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
snip

Myself, I agree that having the fuse in the plug isn't a problem. I used
a 20A DP switch instead of an FCU to avoid having two fuses, and
allowing a more pretty grid switch based solution that wouldn't take up
too much space on the tiles.

That would make more sense if you really, really must have a separate
switch for your appliances. But I think it's just making work for the sake
of it - dedicated low situated sockets inside adjacent cupboards would be
my way if a re-wire was undertaken.


We are back to placing the means of isolating in somewhere that is a/. not
accessible and b/. only known to the property owner and the electrician who
did the rewire and not to others - possibly even the lady of the house ! :~)

Also, in the case of washing machines etc. were there could be a fault
involving leaking water would really want to either touch the unit before
moving it or switch off a ring circuit rather than just a DP switch placed
some where accessible ?

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Jerry." wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Frisket" wrote in message
...

snip

You asked a question and received a
sensible, correct reply from Andy and
yet you wish to argue.

With the interpretation of the regs not with Andy.

How is that not the same ?!!!...

You are now having a laugh.


No, but it sounds like you are trying to ! Andy has interpreted the regs,
correctly AIUI, how can you argue with the interpretation (Andy's
interpretation) without arguing with Andy ?

"Jerry." wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Jerry." wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Frisket" wrote in message
...

snip

You asked a question and received a
sensible, correct reply from Andy and
yet you wish to argue.

With the interpretation of the regs not with Andy.

How is that not the same ?!!!...

You are now having a laugh.

No, but it sounds like you are trying to ! Andy has interpreted the regs,
correctly AIUI, how can you argue with the interpretation (Andy's
interpretation) without arguing with Andy ?

You are jesting again!


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On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:06:14 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

... dedicated low situated sockets inside adjacent cupboards would
be my way if a re-wire was undertaken.

Cupboards have backs and sides and a services void at least a couple
of inches deep behind the back panel. How do you mount/wire a socket
to the, normally poorly supported, hardboard cupboard back?

When I get to doing the kitchen here It'll have below worktop
unswitched sockets for appliances fed from a grid switch panel fitted
with 20A DP switches in the room, fuses for each socket also mounted
in the grid, I think not thought to hard about this yet...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
. 1...
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:06:14 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

... dedicated low situated sockets inside adjacent cupboards would
be my way if a re-wire was undertaken.

Cupboards have backs and sides and a services void at least a couple
of inches deep behind the back panel. How do you mount/wire a socket
to the, normally poorly supported, hardboard cupboard back?

In new properties the sockets are fixed to the side cupboard panels of the
sink cupboard.


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When I get to doing the kitchen here It'll have below worktop
unswitched sockets for appliances fed from a grid switch panel
fitted with 20A DP switches in the room, fuses for each socket
also mounted in the grid, I think not thought to hard about
this yet...

This is what I did, except there is no need for fuses in the grid switch. It
is better to have only the fuse in the plug top. The grid switch is fed from
a dedicated 32A 6mm radial and feeds only a w/m, d/w and t/d.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
When I get to doing the kitchen here It'll have below worktop
unswitched sockets for appliances fed from a grid switch panel
fitted with 20A DP switches in the room, fuses for each socket
also mounted in the grid, I think not thought to hard about
this yet...

This is what I did, except there is no need for fuses in the grid switch.
It
is better to have only the fuse in the plug top. The grid switch is fed
from
a dedicated 32A 6mm radial and feeds only a w/m, d/w and t/d.

Christian.

So if the fuse blows you have to drag out an integrated appliance. If it is
fitted correctly the socket should be accessible.


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So if the fuse blows you have to drag out an integrated appliance.
If it is fitted correctly the socket should be accessible.

I'm not having both the switch AND an ugly socket with cable going through
an ugly hole in the worktop. Generally speaking, if the fuse goes on an
appliance, you want to drag it out to give at least a visual inspection for
scorch marks before replacing the fuse.

Christian.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
So if the fuse blows you have to drag out an integrated appliance.

Wouldn't you anyway to fix the fault that caused the fuse to blow?

A fuse blowing for no reason is so rare as to be ignored in planning terms.

If it is fitted correctly the socket should be accessible.

If you're going to the lengths of installing dedicated switches for
appliances why not install new sockets in sensible positions too?

--
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
... dedicated low situated sockets inside adjacent cupboards would
be my way if a re-wire was undertaken.

Cupboards have backs and sides and a services void at least a couple
of inches deep behind the back panel. How do you mount/wire a socket
to the, normally poorly supported, hardboard cupboard back?

If you must mount it on the back, then a batten on to the wall wouldn't be
too difficult?

When I get to doing the kitchen here It'll have below worktop
unswitched sockets for appliances fed from a grid switch panel fitted
with 20A DP switches in the room, fuses for each socket also mounted
in the grid, I think not thought to hard about this yet...

Do you at the minute switch off *at the socket* (or unplug) all these
appliances that you're going to provide this grid switch arrangement for?
And have fuses blowing regularly enough to make it worthwhile?

If not, it seems like a lot of effort for something that is unlikely to be
used - or needed.

--
*Starfishes have no brains *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:09:20 -0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

This is what I did, except there is no need for fuses in the grid
switch. It is better to have only the fuse in the plug top. The grid
switch is fed from a dedicated 32A 6mm radial and feeds only a w/m,
d/w and t/d.

And 6mm from the gridswitch to the sockets? If you've dropped to 2.5mm
from the gridswitch to socket that section is not properly protected
by the 32A breaker...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

And 6mm from the gridswitch to the sockets? If you've dropped to
2.5mm from the gridswitch to socket that section is not properly
protected by the 32A breaker...

Yes it is. It is protected from short circuit within the cable by having
sufficiently low earth loop impedence. It is protected from overload by the
13A plug top fuse. It is no different from having unfused 2.5mm spurs from a
ring main. You are permitted to assume that a single socket will only draw
13A and a double socket 20A, apparently, but must still provide short
circuit protection, which is easy enough with a B32A MCB if the 2.5mm
section is short.

Christian.

P.S. the 2.5mm actually runs from before the grid switch, as there is no way
you can get two 6mm cables in one terminal.

2.5mm 2.5mm
6mm #--------SW-----SKT
=======###-------SW-----SKT
#--------SW-----SKT

## = junction box
SW = 20A DP switch
SKT = unswitched 13A single socket

The 2.5mm sections are kept short to reduce earth loop impedence at SKT to
ensure that 160A can be reliably drawn on an earth fault at the furthest
point.

Christian.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
. 1...
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:09:20 -0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

This is what I did, except there is no need for fuses in the grid
switch. It is better to have only the fuse in the plug top. The grid
switch is fed from a dedicated 32A 6mm radial and feeds only a w/m,
d/w and t/d.

And 6mm from the gridswitch to the sockets? If you've dropped to 2.5mm
from the gridswitch to socket that section is not properly protected
by the 32A breaker...

Does the MEM Gridswitch 8000 have trips or just rocker switches?


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Do you at the minute switch off *at the socket* (or unplug) all
these appliances that you're going to provide this grid switch
arrangement for? And have fuses blowing regularly enough to make
it worthwhile?

Not the fuses. However, I've often used isolating switches when funny things
happen. Even simple events, like the washing machine making a funny noise
the switches can be useful, particularly with modern appliances with
software controlled switches that just ignore you, as they know "best".

I particularly hate those time delay door opening switches. I simply can't
see the point of them. OK, so being locked when turned on, maybe. But having
to wait 3 minutes for no discernable purpose, I cannot fathom. I frequently
disconnect the lock when the machine gets well past warrantee.

Christian.

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:04:03 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

If you must mount it on the back, then a batten on to the wall
wouldn't be too difficult?

But you also need a fing big hole to get the plug through into the
cupboard. OK you can cut the supplied, moulded on jobbie off
(invalidating any guarantee?) and thread the cable througha small
hole. But if you need to move the machine out further than the length
of cable you have to take the plug off...

Do you at the minute switch off *at the socket* (or unplug) all
these appliances that you're going to provide this grid switch
arrangement for?

Yes, young children, they fiddle. Even though ours know not to fiddle
they occasionally forget. The washing machine is always switched off
at the (above worktop) socket when not in use.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail