[The Medway Handyman]

On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

Empty vacuum cleaner....

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[tim.....]

i don't see what's trivial about cordless doorbells for a non DIYer.

I presume that the chiming part has to be affixed to the wall and if you
don't have a drill and masonry bit what do you do with it? (I'm guessing
that sticking on with double sided tape or blutack isn't durable enough)

tim

[tim.....]

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...



On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

Empty vacuum cleaner....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

do you need a waste license for that?

[ARWadsworth]

The Medway Handyman wrote:
On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

Empty vacuum cleaner....

Working for the OH?

--
Adam

[Nightjar]

On 28/08/2012 17:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:


On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

You should try talking someone through it on the phone.

Colin Bignell

[ARWadsworth]

Nightjar wrote:
On 28/08/2012 17:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:


On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

You should try talking someone through it on the phone.

Only if TMH can key in CC details. He is not a charity.
--
Adam

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

tim..... wrote:
i don't see what's trivial about cordless doorbells for a non DIYer.

I presume that the chiming part has to be affixed to the wall and if you
don't have a drill and masonry bit what do you do with it? (I'm guessing
that sticking on with double sided tape or blutack isn't durable enough)

so use hot glue

tim




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Jules Richardson]

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:27:50 +0000, Huge wrote:
The boiler chappie talked me through fixing the boiler on the phone one
year.

You have a steam-powered phone?

[Brian Gaff]

Most of the ones I see are for the hard of hearing and the bell bit works
from batteries and is clipped to the belt. Some even vibrate.
Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...
i don't see what's trivial about cordless doorbells for a non DIYer.

I presume that the chiming part has to be affixed to the wall and if you
don't have a drill and masonry bit what do you do with it? (I'm guessing
that sticking on with double sided tape or blutack isn't durable enough)

You plug the "bell" into a 13A socket and stick the push on the frame.
It takes longer to take it out of the box than to install.

[Brian Gaff]

I read the other day that some of these bell pushes have a simple release
for the battery, a pp3 in the case of the one I was reading about, and some
people are actually sneaking in and taking them out. Times must be tough if
folk neeed to nick batteries of unknown vintage from bell pushes is all I
can say
Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
On 28/08/2012 18:33, tim..... wrote:
i don't see what's trivial about cordless doorbells for a non DIYer.

I presume that the chiming part has to be affixed to the wall

Nope! Either freestanding with batteries or plugged into socket.


and if you
don't have a drill and masonry bit what do you do with it? (I'm guessing
that sticking on with double sided tape or blutack isn't durable enough)

Bell push is supplied with D/S tape, but I do things properly & use screws
:-)




--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Brian Gaff]

My Vax seems to have designed a dust container where the easy to remove lid
as almost impossible to get back on again.

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"tim....." wrote in message
...
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...



On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

Empty vacuum cleaner....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

do you need a waste license for that?

[Nightjar]

On 28/08/2012 19:41, ARWadsworth wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 28/08/2012 17:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:


On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

You should try talking someone through it on the phone.

Only if TMH can key in CC details. He is not a charity.


In my case it was after-sales service. I am very pleased that I no
longer have to deal with members of the public as customers.

Colin Bignell

[Nightjar]

On 28/08/2012 22:27, Huge wrote:
On 2012-08-28, Nightjar wrote:
On 28/08/2012 17:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:


On a list of jobs today;

Change print cartridge....

You should try talking someone through it on the phone.

The boiler chappie talked me through fixing the boiler on the phone
one year. We were snowed in and he couldn't get to us.

Which shows that it is the abilities of the person needing help that is
critical.

Colin Bignell

[Alan Braggins]

In article , Huge wrote:

Thanks for reminding me that I've previously had to taxi a support person
halfway across London to plug in a keyboard extension cable for someone.

I've heard of someone flown to Singapore to look at a problem after a
phone call which went roughly "You're sure it's plugged in?" "You're
really sure it's plugged in?" "You're really absolutely certain it's
plugged in?".

Turned out it was plugged in, to a four-way extension lead which was also
plugged in - to itself.

[Bill]

In message , Alan Braggins
writes
In article , Huge wrote:

Thanks for reminding me that I've previously had to taxi a support person
halfway across London to plug in a keyboard extension cable for someone.

I've heard of someone flown to Singapore to look at a problem after a
phone call which went roughly "You're sure it's plugged in?" "You're
really sure it's plugged in?" "You're really absolutely certain it's
plugged in?".

Turned out it was plugged in, to a four-way extension lead which was also
plugged in - to itself.

I once drove 50 miles to Wimbledon, tennis, to a TV scanner after a
similar conversation. I found that the customer had added an extra 4
way multiblock to the set up, one with a switch on it. I explained to
him how the switch worked and drove 50 miles back again.

--
Bill

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Bill wrote:
In message , Alan Braggins
writes
In article , Huge wrote:

Thanks for reminding me that I've previously had to taxi a support
person
halfway across London to plug in a keyboard extension cable for someone.

I've heard of someone flown to Singapore to look at a problem after a
phone call which went roughly "You're sure it's plugged in?" "You're
really sure it's plugged in?" "You're really absolutely certain it's
plugged in?".

Turned out it was plugged in, to a four-way extension lead which was also
plugged in - to itself.

I once drove 50 miles to Wimbledon, tennis, to a TV scanner after a
similar conversation. I found that the customer had added an extra 4
way multiblock to the set up, one with a switch on it. I explained to
him how the switch worked and drove 50 miles back again.

Two of us drove 65 miles to London,, to Arthur Andersen, and a BT
engineer did the same, wasted 4 hours while the customer faffed about
and the BT engineer finally discovered the IDSN line that was strung up
and over the door of a steel cabinet that had cut through the insulation.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[ARWadsworth]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Bill wrote:
In message , Alan
Braggins writes
In article , Huge wrote:

Thanks for reminding me that I've previously had to taxi a
support person
halfway across London to plug in a keyboard extension cable for
someone.

I've heard of someone flown to Singapore to look at a problem
after a phone call which went roughly "You're sure it's plugged
in?" "You're really sure it's plugged in?" "You're really
absolutely certain it's plugged in?".

Turned out it was plugged in, to a four-way extension lead which
was also plugged in - to itself.

I once drove 50 miles to Wimbledon, tennis, to a TV scanner after a
similar conversation. I found that the customer had added an extra
4 way multiblock to the set up, one with a switch on it. I
explained to him how the switch worked and drove 50 miles back
again.
Two of us drove 65 miles to London,, to Arthur Andersen, and a BT
engineer did the same, wasted 4 hours while the customer faffed about
and the BT engineer finally discovered the IDSN line that was strung
up and over the door of a steel cabinet that had cut through the
insulation.

I can have my time wasted more than that.

A couple of months ago I had to drop the job I was doing and I had to drive
100 miles north to swap a broken hand drier in a gents toilets (contract
work and we have to turn up when required).

I spoke to the manager and he showed me the faulty hand drier. I asked him
why the job could not wait (ie allow someone to arrive there for 8am in the
morning do the work instead of driving there in work time) as there were two
hand driers and the other one still worked. He claimed it was H&S, went for
a **** and then never even bothered to wash his hands or use the working
hand drier.

It would still have been a 200 round trip, but at least I could have done
the outwards journey when there was no traffic.

--
Adam

[ARWadsworth]

Owain wrote:
On Aug 29, 7:06 pm, "ARWadsworth" wrote:
He claimed it was H&S, went for
a **** and then never even bothered to wash his hands or use the
working hand drier.

You should have reported him to his manager for H&S.

Best to to just get paid. Their money.

And that's somewhere you won't accept a cuppa in future.

I was not offered a brew.

--
Adam

[Adam Funk[_3_]]

On 2012-08-29, ARWadsworth wrote:

I can have my time wasted more than that.

A couple of months ago I had to drop the job I was doing and I had to drive
100 miles north to swap a broken hand drier in a gents toilets (contract
work and we have to turn up when required).

I spoke to the manager and he showed me the faulty hand drier. I asked him
why the job could not wait (ie allow someone to arrive there for 8am in the
morning do the work instead of driving there in work time) as there were two
hand driers and the other one still worked. He claimed it was H&S, went for
a **** and then never even bothered to wash his hands or use the working
hand drier.

That's a more serious H&S violation!

You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...

[ARWadsworth]

Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-29, ARWadsworth wrote:

I can have my time wasted more than that.

A couple of months ago I had to drop the job I was doing and I had
to drive 100 miles north to swap a broken hand drier in a gents
toilets (contract work and we have to turn up when required).

I spoke to the manager and he showed me the faulty hand drier. I
asked him why the job could not wait (ie allow someone to arrive
there for 8am in the morning do the work instead of driving there
in work time) as there were two hand driers and the other one still
worked. He claimed it was H&S, went for a **** and then never even
bothered to wash his hands or use the working hand drier.

That's a more serious H&S violation!

You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...

He never washed his hands!


--
Adam

[Adam Funk[_3_]]

On 2012-08-29, ARWadsworth wrote:

Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-29, ARWadsworth wrote:

I can have my time wasted more than that.

A couple of months ago I had to drop the job I was doing and I had
to drive 100 miles north to swap a broken hand drier in a gents
toilets (contract work and we have to turn up when required).

I spoke to the manager and he showed me the faulty hand drier. I
asked him why the job could not wait (ie allow someone to arrive
there for 8am in the morning do the work instead of driving there
in work time) as there were two hand driers and the other one still
worked. He claimed it was H&S, went for a **** and then never even
bothered to wash his hands or use the working hand drier.

That's a more serious H&S violation!

You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...

He never washed his hands!

That's what I meant by "a more serious H&S violation"!

My second point was that if they'd provided paper towel dispensers, at
least in addition to electric dyers, then they wouldn't have needed to
pay for an emergency call-out to fix the hand drier.

(As far as I'm concerned, employers, architects, &c, who provide
electric driers without paper towel alternatives should be forced to
use the stupid things at home.)

[dennis@home]

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

[ARWadsworth]

dennis@home wrote:
"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

Not if you have clean hands.

--
Adam

[SteveW[_2_]]

On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.

Which only helps if the patients AND staff wash their hands. My wife
works for the NHS and whenever she uses the toilets at work, she then
exits the cubicle, washes her hands, dries them, uses another paper
towel to turn the tap off and another to open the doors on the way back
to her office, where she drops the towel into her deskside bin - she's
seen far too many staff exit the cubicles and then leave without washing
their hands!

SteveW

[The Medway Handyman]

On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Nightjar]

On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

The nice warm interior of a hand drier in the relatively moist
environment of a toilet is an ideal breeding ground for bacteria.
Fortunately, they are normally ones our immune systems can deal with,
but not always, and a hospital is a good place to find both highly
potent bacteria and lowered immunity.

The big advantage of warm air hand driers is not improved hygiene - they
can spread bacteria up to half a metre from the machine (2m for the high
powered jet dryers) - but lowered cost of maintaining the toilet
facilities. I use paper towels whenever they are provided.

Colin Bignell

[The Medway Handyman]

On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

The nice warm interior of a hand drier in the relatively moist
environment of a toilet is an ideal breeding ground for bacteria.
Fortunately, they are normally ones our immune systems can deal with,
but not always, and a hospital is a good place to find both highly
potent bacteria and lowered immunity.

The big advantage of warm air hand driers is not improved hygiene - they
can spread bacteria up to half a metre from the machine (2m for the high
powered jet dryers) - but lowered cost of maintaining the toilet
facilities. I use paper towels whenever they are provided.

Colin Bignell


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[charles]

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

the big problem with hot air dryers is they heat up the room which
amplifies the 'pong'. Lots of air changes are needed.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Adam Funk[_3_]]

On 2012-08-30, The Medway Handyman wrote:

On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

The studies funded by the hand-drier makers all compared bacteria on
hands dried *thoroughly* with hand-driers against hands dried with
paper towels, and they did *not* investigate bacteria spread around
the room.

How many people are inclined to spend the time it takes to dry their
hands thoroughly with those awful machines? You only need to look at
the typical provision of them to see that the installers know they
will go underused (example from my office: 3 toilets, 3 urinals, 4
sinks, 1 hand-drier). And then there's the noise pollution
(especially from the fast Dyson ones). Would you use a hand-drier in
your house?

[Tim+]

Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-30, The Medway Handyman wrote:

On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

The studies funded by the hand-drier makers all compared bacteria on
hands dried *thoroughly* with hand-driers against hands dried with
paper towels, and they did *not* investigate bacteria spread around
the room.

How many people are inclined to spend the time it takes to dry their
hands thoroughly with those awful machines? You only need to look at
the typical provision of them to see that the installers know they
will go underused (example from my office: 3 toilets, 3 urinals, 4
sinks, 1 hand-drier). And then there's the noise pollution
(especially from the fast Dyson ones). Would you use a hand-drier in
your house?

Has anyone done any studies to see if you would be better of just NOT
washing your hands after a pee? Seems like you're more likely to pick up
someone else's faecal contaminant through contact with taps etc.

Tim

Tim

[Nightjar]

On 30/08/2012 09:20, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

That does not make the findings wrong, although it may affect the way in
which the tests are run. Each side will choose the methods that give
them the best chances of seeing the results that suit them. The hand
dryer manufacturers test in a laboratory, while the tests I refer to
were real life tests on units in use in toilets. The results are
entirely consistent with those I obtained from bioburden testing when I
ran a clean room.


The nice warm interior of a hand drier in the relatively moist
environment of a toilet is an ideal breeding ground for bacteria.
Fortunately, they are normally ones our immune systems can deal with,
but not always, and a hospital is a good place to find both highly
potent bacteria and lowered immunity.

The big advantage of warm air hand driers is not improved hygiene - they
can spread bacteria up to half a metre from the machine (2m for the high
powered jet dryers) - but lowered cost of maintaining the toilet
facilities. I use paper towels whenever they are provided.

Colin Bignell

[The Medway Handyman]

On 30/08/2012 10:34, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-30, The Medway Handyman wrote:

On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

The studies funded by the hand-drier makers all compared bacteria on
hands dried *thoroughly* with hand-driers against hands dried with
paper towels, and they did *not* investigate bacteria spread around
the room.

How many people are inclined to spend the time it takes to dry their
hands thoroughly with those awful machines? You only need to look at
the typical provision of them to see that the installers know they
will go underused (example from my office: 3 toilets, 3 urinals, 4
sinks, 1 hand-drier). And then there's the noise pollution
(especially from the fast Dyson ones). Would you use a hand-drier in
your house?

I was in the cleaning equipment game for 30 years before I became a
handyman, the hand driers v paper towels argument was a regular feature
in the trade press.

The paper manufacturers are huge multi nationals, the hand drier
manufacturers are largely SME's.

The paper guys have two competitors - other paper guys & hand driers.

They compete with each other buy offering free dispensers which only
take their paper, until a 'patent part' paper roll is introduced, then
they change again.

The problem is they can't get into the huge high volume market with
paper towels; shopping malls, airports, motorway service areas - because
of the huge logistics problem - storing paper, replenishing supplies,
removing waste.

So they constantly make the claim that hand driers spread bacteria.

However, if you have just wased your hands in a biocidal soap, there are
no bacteria to be blown about.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[dennis@home]

"Tim+" wrote in message
...


Has anyone done any studies to see if you would be better of just NOT
washing your hands after a pee? Seems like you're more likely to pick up
someone else's faecal contaminant through contact with taps etc.

Why do you think the NHS use lever taps or press button taps.
You don't have to touch them after washing.
Also you can always wash the taps while washing your hands.

[dennis@home]

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 30/08/2012 09:20, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

That does not make the findings wrong, although it may affect the way in
which the tests are run. Each side will choose the methods that give them
the best chances of seeing the results that suit them. The hand dryer
manufacturers test in a laboratory, while the tests I refer to were real
life tests on units in use in toilets. The results are entirely consistent
with those I obtained from bioburden testing when I ran a clean room.

I don't really trust any claims made by someone who insists secondary
smoking is harmless.
Especially when secondary smoking makes me ill.

[The Medway Handyman]

On 30/08/2012 18:54, dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 30/08/2012 09:20, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...


You don't get these serious technical problems where they provide
paper towels like civilized people...


NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

That does not make the findings wrong, although it may affect the way
in which the tests are run. Each side will choose the methods that
give them the best chances of seeing the results that suit them. The
hand dryer manufacturers test in a laboratory, while the tests I refer
to were real life tests on units in use in toilets. The results are
entirely consistent with those I obtained from bioburden testing when
I ran a clean room.

I don't really trust any claims made by someone who insists secondary
smoking is harmless.
Especially when secondary smoking makes me ill.

Life has made you ill, you sad git.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Nightjar]

On 30/08/2012 18:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 30/08/2012 10:34, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-30, The Medway Handyman wrote:

On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

The studies funded by the hand-drier makers all compared bacteria on
hands dried *thoroughly* with hand-driers against hands dried with
paper towels, and they did *not* investigate bacteria spread around
the room.

How many people are inclined to spend the time it takes to dry their
hands thoroughly with those awful machines? You only need to look at
the typical provision of them to see that the installers know they
will go underused (example from my office: 3 toilets, 3 urinals, 4
sinks, 1 hand-drier). And then there's the noise pollution
(especially from the fast Dyson ones). Would you use a hand-drier in
your house?

I was in the cleaning equipment game for 30 years before I became a
handyman, the hand driers v paper towels argument was a regular feature
in the trade press.

The paper manufacturers are huge multi nationals, the hand drier
manufacturers are largely SME's.

I would not class Rentokil Initial as an SME.

The paper guys have two competitors - other paper guys & hand driers.

They compete with each other buy offering free dispensers which only
take their paper, until a 'patent part' paper roll is introduced, then
they change again.

The problem is they can't get into the huge high volume market with
paper towels; shopping malls, airports, motorway service areas - because
of the huge logistics problem - storing paper, replenishing supplies,
removing waste.

So they constantly make the claim that hand driers spread bacteria.

However, if you have just wased your hands in a biocidal soap, there are
no bacteria to be blown about.

That is making the, probably invalid, assumption that the person washing
their hands has been trained in how to wash their hands in a manner that
ensures all parts are cleansed and that they do it properly. It is also
irrelevant in the majority of toilets, which are unlikely to pay for a
biocidal soap, and ignores the fact that a lot of bacteria can breed
inside the hand dryer.

Colin Bignell

[Nick Odell]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:10:22 +0100, Tim+
wrote:

Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-30, The Medway Handyman wrote:

On 30/08/2012 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/08/2012 08:26, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/08/2012 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

NHS facilities provide paper hand towels.
They do so because they are trying to stop infection.
Hand driers spread infection.
High speed hand driers spread more.

That is a load of old bollox promoted by paper towel manufacturers.

Trials last year showed that washing your hands and drying them on
either paper towels or a continuous loop cotton towel reduced the
bacterial count on hands by 45%-60%. Warm air hand driers, on average,
increased the count by 225%.

Funded by the European Tissue Symposium....

The studies funded by the hand-drier makers all compared bacteria on
hands dried *thoroughly* with hand-driers against hands dried with
paper towels, and they did *not* investigate bacteria spread around
the room.

How many people are inclined to spend the time it takes to dry their
hands thoroughly with those awful machines? You only need to look at
the typical provision of them to see that the installers know they
will go underused (example from my office: 3 toilets, 3 urinals, 4
sinks, 1 hand-drier). And then there's the noise pollution
(especially from the fast Dyson ones). Would you use a hand-drier in
your house?

Has anyone done any studies to see if you would be better of just NOT
washing your hands after a pee? Seems like you're more likely to pick up
someone else's faecal contaminant through contact with taps etc.

Not something I worry too much about since I'm going to wash
everything off my hands moments later. Push-down taps that you don't
have to turn off or, as Dennis mentions, lever taps make it better
too.

No, the thing that gets me - after I've done the right thing and
washed and dried my hands - is that I'm going to have to touch a door
handle that's been touched by someone who hasn't (done the right
thing.) My technique in a small, individual public toilet is to dry my
hands then use the paper towel to switch off the light (if required)
and unlock and open the door, throwing the towel in the bin on the way
out. In a communual facility I wait for someone else to go out or in
and follow them through or flick the door further open with my shoe.

Nick

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:49:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

However, if you have just wased your hands in a biocidal soap, there
are no bacteria to be blown about.

If you believe that a "safe" biocidal soap kills everything, think again
Gunga Din. It'll certainly reduce the bacterial load but there will still
be millions of 'em about.

That is making the, probably invalid, assumption that the person
washing their hands has been trained in how to wash their hands in a
manner that ensures all parts are cleansed and that they do it
properly.

Quite, how often do you see people just dibbling their finger tips into a
dribble of cold water for 3 seconds as "washing their hands".

It is also irrelevant in the majority of toilets, which are unlikely to
pay for a biocidal soap, ...

Most toilet do have soap these days wether it is a biocidal one is
another matter. the bigger problem is the water, it's normally cold, not
even the "safe" 43C tepid. If there is hot it will most likely be 60C+
and scalding...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[The Medway Handyman]

On 30/08/2012 23:13, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:49:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

However, if you have just wased your hands in a biocidal soap, there
are no bacteria to be blown about.

If you believe that a "safe" biocidal soap kills everything, think again
Gunga Din. It'll certainly reduce the bacterial load but there will still
be millions of 'em about.

That is making the, probably invalid, assumption that the person
washing their hands has been trained in how to wash their hands in a
manner that ensures all parts are cleansed and that they do it
properly.

Quite, how often do you see people just dibbling their finger tips into a
dribble of cold water for 3 seconds as "washing their hands".

It is also irrelevant in the majority of toilets, which are unlikely to
pay for a biocidal soap, ...

Most toilet do have soap these days wether it is a biocidal one is
another matter. the bigger problem is the water, it's normally cold, not
even the "safe" 43C tepid. If there is hot it will most likely be 60C+
and scalding...

Do we have any stats on how many people contract the dreaded lurgy from
public toilets?

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Adam Funk[_3_]]

On 2012-08-30, The Medway Handyman wrote:

On 30/08/2012 10:34, Adam Funk wrote:

How many people are inclined to spend the time it takes to dry their
hands thoroughly with those awful machines? You only need to look at
the typical provision of them to see that the installers know they
will go underused (example from my office: 3 toilets, 3 urinals, 4
sinks, 1 hand-drier). And then there's the noise pollution
(especially from the fast Dyson ones). Would you use a hand-drier in
your house?

I was in the cleaning equipment game for 30 years before I became a
handyman, the hand driers v paper towels argument was a regular feature
in the trade press.

The paper manufacturers are huge multi nationals, the hand drier
manufacturers are largely SME's.

The paper guys have two competitors - other paper guys & hand driers.

They compete with each other buy offering free dispensers which only
take their paper, until a 'patent part' paper roll is introduced, then
they change again.

The problem is they can't get into the huge high volume market with
paper towels; shopping malls, airports, motorway service areas - because
of the huge logistics problem - storing paper, replenishing supplies,
removing waste.

So they constantly make the claim that hand driers spread bacteria.

However, if you have just wased your hands in a biocidal soap, there are
no bacteria to be blown about.


Do you have electric hand-driers in your house? Why not, if they're
so great?