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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Radiator reflective foil
Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though
expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www.greenstamp.co.uk/product_...roducts_id/268 -- Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire |
#2
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Radiator reflective foil
On 14/12/2011 13:49, Moonraker wrote:
Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though Of course. It has to be a mirror surface to be "not a black body" at thermal wavelengths. Same way that thin metallic coating is used on survival blankets to get maximum reduction in heat loss for minimum weight. The way it works to stop heat loss is by being a mirror surface reflector - and preferably backed with 3-5mm of expanded polystyrene to insulate it from the cold wall as well. Both play their part here. expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www.greenstamp.co.uk/product_...roducts_id/268 Interesting aluminium foil that is magnetic. Ovepriced junk. If you stick it onto the radiator itself you reduce the convective heat output. The best buy at the moment are the roughly 60cm square sheets for foil backed with 5mm of polystyrene in B&Q/Wickes. They mount onto the wall. See the previous thread for details. Regards, Martin Brown |
#3
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Radiator reflective foil
In article , Moonraker
writes Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www..co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/268 This absolutely stinks of false review/mention spam but benefit of the doubt given: The only stuff like this that works is foil with a thin layer of insulation backing that is stuck to or otherwise fitted very close to the wall. It works by reflecting radiated heat and providing a little insulation where it is most needed. Painting it will remove any radiation reflecting benefit. Attaching bare foil of any flavour directly to the radiator, as proposed on the linked site, is a total waste of time and is highly likely to reduce the heat output from the radiator. Given the apparent misinformation presented on the linked site I would recommend avoiding it.. -- fred it's a ba-na-na . . . . |
#4
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Radiator reflective foil
On Dec 14, 1:49*pm, Moonraker wrote:
Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please No. Radiators convect, they dont radiate, and a shiny metal surface makes no difference to convection or conduction. Its a waste of kitchen foil. NT |
#5
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Radiator reflective foil
On 14/12/2011 15:04, fred wrote:
In article , Moonraker writes Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www..co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/268 On balance it looks like a greensploitation site to me. This absolutely stinks of false review/mention spam but benefit of the doubt given: The only stuff like this that works is foil with a thin layer of insulation backing that is stuck to or otherwise fitted very close to the wall. It works by reflecting radiated heat and providing a little insulation where it is most needed. Painting it will remove any radiation reflecting benefit. Attaching bare foil of any flavour directly to the radiator, as proposed on the linked site, is a total waste of time and is highly likely to reduce the heat output from the radiator. Given the apparent misinformation presented on the linked site I would recommend avoiding it.. I'll second that. Regards, Martin Brown |
#6
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Radiator reflective foil
In message , Moonraker
writes Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www.greenstamp.co.uk/product_...roducts_id/268 I always thought that heat-reflecting foil went on the wall behind the radiator. However, as this type is held in position with magnetic tape, presumably it goes on the metal of the radiator itself. As its wall-side surface is shiny, this should reduce the radiator's radiation in the direction of the wall. As its radiator-side will also be shiny, this will reflect heat back into the radiator. As presumably it won't be seen, why would you even want to emulsion over it? As matter of principle, yes, anything which reduces the reflectivity of a radiating (or an absorbing surface) will reduce its effectiveness in radiating/absorbing heat. However, it could be argued that the thickness of the paint reduces the heat conduction to/from a metal surface of the paint. -- Ian --- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to --- |
#7
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Radiator reflective foil
On 14/12/2011 15:06, NT wrote:
On Dec 14, 1:49 pm, wrote: Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please No. Radiators convect, they dont radiate, and a shiny metal surface makes no difference to convection or conduction. Its a waste of kitchen foil. Actually it makes a fair bit of difference once the temperature of the radiator is above 50C or so. Convection is still dominant but you can also feel the thermal radiation in front of most decent radiators. Reflecting that away from *outer* walls is worthwhile, but far better with insulation behind so the foil is thermally isolated. I have seen someone get caught out by an old style linear regulator PSU they put in a basic folded shiny aluminium case and it got so hot that it went into thermal shutdown. After painting it black it was 60C. (in fact any non metallic colour would do as "Black" for thermal IR) Regards, Martin Brown |
#8
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Radiator reflective foil
On Dec 14, 3:43*pm, Martin Brown
wrote: On 14/12/2011 15:06, NT wrote: On Dec 14, 1:49 pm, *wrote: Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please No. Radiators convect, they dont radiate, and a shiny metal surface makes no difference to convection or conduction. Its a waste of kitchen foil. Actually it makes a fair bit of difference once the temperature of the radiator is above 50C or so. Convection is still dominant but you can also feel the thermal radiation in front of most decent radiators. Reflecting that away from *outer* walls is worthwhile, but far better with insulation behind so the foil is thermally isolated. I have seen someone get caught out by an old style linear regulator PSU they put in a basic folded shiny aluminium case and it got so hot that it went into thermal shutdown. After painting it black it was 60C. (in fact any non metallic colour would do as "Black" for thermal IR) Regards, Martin Brown Everything above abolute zero temperature (minus 273.15degC) radiates energy. if you have two adjacent objects at different temperatures, they radiate energy at one another until they equalise. Assuming energy is not being added to them). The shiney foil delays the process. |
#9
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Radiator reflective foil
On 14/12/2011 15:21, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Moonraker writes Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www.greenstamp.co.uk/product_...roducts_id/268 I always thought that heat-reflecting foil went on the wall behind the radiator. However, as this type is held in position with magnetic tape, presumably it goes on the metal of the radiator itself. As its wall-side surface is shiny, this should reduce the radiator's radiation in the direction of the wall. As its radiator-side will also be shiny, this will reflect heat back into the radiator. As presumably it won't be seen, why would you even want to emulsion over it? As matter of principle, yes, anything which reduces the reflectivity of a radiating (or an absorbing surface) will reduce its effectiveness in radiating/absorbing heat. However, it could be argued that the thickness of the paint reduces the heat conduction to/from a metal surface of the paint. Thanks for all the help, the general opinion is that the magnetic stuff a rip off but it is worth using reflective foil, so I will send my daughter to B&Q or Wickes for some, as it for her house! -- Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire |
#10
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Radiator reflective foil
On Dec 15, 9:56*am, harry wrote:
On Dec 14, 3:43*pm, Martin Brown wrote: On 14/12/2011 15:06, NT wrote: On Dec 14, 1:49 pm, *wrote: Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please No. Radiators convect, they dont radiate, and a shiny metal surface makes no difference to convection or conduction. Its a waste of kitchen foil. Actually it makes a fair bit of difference once the temperature of the radiator is above 50C or so. Convection is still dominant but you can also feel the thermal radiation in front of most decent radiators. Reflecting that away from *outer* walls is worthwhile, but far better with insulation behind so the foil is thermally isolated. I have seen someone get caught out by an old style linear regulator PSU they put in a basic folded shiny aluminium case and it got so hot that it went into thermal shutdown. After painting it black it was 60C. (in fact any non metallic colour would do as "Black" for thermal IR) Regards, Martin Brown Everything above abolute zero temperature (minus 273.15degC) radiates energy. if you have two adjacent objects at different temperatures, they radiate energy at one another until they equalise. Assuming energy is not being added to them). The shiney foil delays the process. Yes, everything radiates, the question is how much. Radiators don't radiate to a significant extent, meaning the conducted heat output is very much greater. What's wanted to cut heat loss is insulation, not a reflector. NT |
#11
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Radiator reflective foil
On Dec 15, 10:13*am, Moonraker wrote:
On 14/12/2011 15:21, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Moonraker writes Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www.greenstamp.co.uk/product_...roducts_id/268 I always thought that heat-reflecting foil went on the wall behind the radiator. However, as this type is held in position with magnetic tape, presumably it goes on the metal of the radiator itself. As its wall-side surface is shiny, this should reduce the radiator's radiation in the direction of the wall. As its radiator-side will also be shiny, this will reflect heat back into the radiator. As presumably it won't be seen, why would you even want to emulsion over it? As matter of principle, yes, anything which reduces the reflectivity of a radiating (or an absorbing surface) will reduce its effectiveness in radiating/absorbing heat. However, it could be argued that the thickness of the paint reduces the heat conduction to/from a metal surface of the paint. Thanks for all the help, the general opinion is that the magnetic stuff a rip off but it is worth using reflective foil, so I will send my daughter to B&Q or Wickes for some, as it for her house! I think you'll find tesco and sainsburys far cheaper. NT |
#12
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Radiator reflective foil
On Dec 14, 3:43*pm, Martin Brown
wrote: On 14/12/2011 15:06, NT wrote: On Dec 14, 1:49 pm, *wrote: Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please No. Radiators convect, they dont radiate, and a shiny metal surface makes no difference to convection or conduction. Its a waste of kitchen foil. Actually it makes a fair bit of difference once the temperature of the radiator is above 50C or so. Convection is still dominant but you can also feel the thermal radiation in front of most decent radiators. Reflecting that away from *outer* walls is worthwhile, but far better with insulation behind so the foil is thermally isolated. I have seen someone get caught out by an old style linear regulator PSU they put in a basic folded shiny aluminium case and it got so hot that it went into thermal shutdown. After painting it black it was 60C. So, in fact, the best colour to paint radiators is black, not the conventional white. Robert |
#13
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Radiator reflective foil
"RobertL" wrote in message ... So, in fact, the best colour to paint radiators is black, not the conventional white. You have to be careful, just because its black doesn't mean it behaves as a black body. |
#14
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Radiator reflective foil
On 15/12/2011 11:21, RobertL wrote:
On Dec 14, 3:43 pm, Martin wrote: Reflecting that away from *outer* walls is worthwhile, but far better with insulation behind so the foil is thermally isolated. I have seen someone get caught out by an old style linear regulator PSU they put in a basic folded shiny aluminium case and it got so hot that it went into thermal shutdown. After painting it black it was60C. So, in fact, the best colour to paint radiators is black, not the conventional white. The difference is extremely marginal. The visible light colour bears no relation to the thermal IR properties. Almost *any* colour of paint that is not mirror finish metallic radiates like a black body at the sort of thermal IR wavelengths characteristic of the Earths ambient temperature. Tactically if you want to keep a building cool painting it brilliant white is the optimum. This was done of observatory domes until quite recently when modern aircon became preferred and the domes are now painted with a very sophisticated semi metallic off white paint system that has neutral heat loss properties under a clear night sky. The old stuff used to radiate too well leading to cold air currents spilling over the edge of the dome slit and turbulence. Regards, Martin Brown |
#15
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Radiator reflective foil
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:13:52 +0000, Moonraker wrote:
On 14/12/2011 15:21, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Moonraker writes Does it lose its effectiveness if emulsioned over? This one, though expensive looks ideal, any experience here please? http://www.greenstamp.co.uk/product_...roducts_id/268 I always thought that heat-reflecting foil went on the wall behind the radiator. However, as this type is held in position with magnetic tape, presumably it goes on the metal of the radiator itself. As its wall-side surface is shiny, this should reduce the radiator's radiation in the direction of the wall. As its radiator-side will also be shiny, this will reflect heat back into the radiator. As presumably it won't be seen, why would you even want to emulsion over it? As matter of principle, yes, anything which reduces the reflectivity of a radiating (or an absorbing surface) will reduce its effectiveness in radiating/absorbing heat. However, it could be argued that the thickness of the paint reduces the heat conduction to/from a metal surface of the paint. Thanks for all the help, the general opinion is that the magnetic stuff a rip off but it is worth using reflective foil, so I will send my daughter to B&Q or Wickes for some, as it for her house! http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Cons.../sd2738/p26805 Needs a good adhesive and time to dry. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#16
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Radiator reflective foil
In article , PeterC
writes On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:13:52 +0000, Moonraker wrote: Thanks for all the help, the general opinion is that the magnetic stuff a rip off but it is worth using reflective foil, so I will send my daughter to B&Q or Wickes for some, as it for her house! http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Cons...on/Radiator%20 Foil/d210/sd2738/p26805 or just http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p26805 , the middle bit is redundant. I'm not sure that that one has an insulated backing which in my view is the only one worth using. Needs a good adhesive and time to dry. Strong wallpaper paste perhaps with a dob of pva sounds good. -- fred it's a ba-na-na . . . . |
#17
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Radiator reflective foil
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:56:12 +0000, fred wrote:
In article , PeterC writes On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:13:52 +0000, Moonraker wrote: Thanks for all the help, the general opinion is that the magnetic stuff a rip off but it is worth using reflective foil, so I will send my daughter to B&Q or Wickes for some, as it for her house! http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Cons...on/Radiator%20 Foil/d210/sd2738/p26805 or just http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p26805 , the middle bit is redundant. Yes, sorry - Dialog has an anti-wrap feature so I tend to be lazy and use that. I'm not sure that that one has an insulated backing which in my view is the only one worth using. It has a thin layer of PE(?) foam on the back. Needs a good adhesive and time to dry. Strong wallpaper paste perhaps with a dob of pva sounds good. TS does a strong adhesive that I used. The foil is still on after about 18 months. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#18
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Radiator reflective foil
In article , PeterC
writes On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:56:12 +0000, fred wrote: In article , PeterC writes On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:13:52 +0000, Moonraker wrote: Thanks for all the help, the general opinion is that the magnetic stuff a rip off but it is worth using reflective foil, so I will send my daughter to B&Q or Wickes for some, as it for her house! http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Cons...ation/Radiator %20 Foil/d210/sd2738/p26805 or just http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p26805 , the middle bit is redundant. Yes, sorry - Dialog has an anti-wrap feature so I tend to be lazy and use that. Poor wording by me I'm afraid, just meant to point out how toolstation links _can_ be shortened if you chose to rather than you _should_ have. I'm not sure that that one has an insulated backing which in my view is the only one worth using. It has a thin layer of PE(?) foam on the back. Excellent, I had considered recommending it to the o/p first time round but it wasn't clear on the TS description or photo (TS's main weakness IMV). Needs a good adhesive and time to dry. Strong wallpaper paste perhaps with a dob of pva sounds good. TS does a strong adhesive that I used. The foil is still on after about 18 months. -- fred it's a ba-na-na . . . . |
#19
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Radiator reflective foil
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:57:40 +0000, fred wrote:
It has a thin layer of PE(?) foam on the back. Excellent, I had considered recommending it to the o/p first time round but it wasn't clear on the TS description or photo (TS's main weakness IMV). If going to collect it, a simple check is to squeeze the packet - it should be a bit resilient (if the assistant complains, squeeze the rad. foil instead). -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#20
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Radiator reflective foil
On 15/12/2011 20:34, PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:56:12 +0000, fred wrote: In , PeterC writes On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:13:52 +0000, Moonraker wrote: Thanks for all the help, the general opinion is that the magnetic stuff a rip off but it is worth using reflective foil, so I will send my daughter to B&Q or Wickes for some, as it for her house! http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Cons...on/Radiator%20 Foil/d210/sd2738/p26805 or just http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p26805 , the middle bit is redundant. Yes, sorry - Dialog has an anti-wrap feature so I tend to be lazy and use that. I'm not sure that that one has an insulated backing which in my view is the only one worth using. It has a thin layer of PE(?) foam on the back. I wouldn't consider using anything in this application where the backing was thin enough to allow it to be sold in rolls or folded like that. The best I have seen is 3mm and 5mm thick polystyrene foam with foil backing available in 600mm square and nearly rigid. It will snap if handled badly and is easily cut to shape with a craft knife. It is always a compromise between obstructing airflow and minimising loss through the wall. The rigid stuff is a lot easier to work with too as it is naturally flat and doesn't want to curl up and can be attached with a few dabs of decent PVA or wallpaper paste on the back. B&Q/Wickes have a decent version of it. (Not in rolls) Regards, Martin Brown |
#21
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Radiator reflective foil
On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:19:39 +0000
PeterC wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:57:40 +0000, fred wrote: It has a thin layer of PE(?) foam on the back. Excellent, I had considered recommending it to the o/p first time round but it wasn't clear on the TS description or photo (TS's main weakness IMV). If going to collect it, a simple check is to squeeze the packet - it should be a bit resilient (if the assistant complains, squeeze the rad. foil instead). What assistant? -- Davey. |
#22
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Radiator reflective foil
On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 23:54:58 +0000, Davey wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:19:39 +0000 PeterC wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:57:40 +0000, fred wrote: It has a thin layer of PE(?) foam on the back. Excellent, I had considered recommending it to the o/p first time round but it wasn't clear on the TS description or photo (TS's main weakness IMV). If going to collect it, a simple check is to squeeze the packet - it should be a bit resilient (if the assistant complains, squeeze the rad. foil instead). What assistant? The people in my local TS are friendly and helpful - willing to get items to look at (TS' site is woefully lacking in information). -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
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