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Default Floor Tiling. Need lots of help.

Hi Peoples,

I am having a nightmare about laying floor tiles on an old (very old)
suspended floor. I know that the floor is way over one hundred years old
and is now nail sick and sagging. The joist ends are good and in position
on their pads, of which a few have been changed, and all is fine with
strength and soundness to keep us safe from falling into the downstairs
neighbours kitchen.

The problem I am thinking of is deflection of the joists as they feel like
the noggins are now loose, or have been cut by other trades over the years,
and are not tight enough in place to prevent the bouncing like a trampoline.

We definitely can't move out of the house while the I lift the whole floor
to strengthen it. And I don't really want to ask the neighbour if I can rip
their ceiling down to fix our joists. Another worry is, if I start to fix
the joists, How Much Damage, can I expect to be fixing on the neighbours
latth and plaster ceiling. :-))

So the whole scenario goes like this.

The tiles are being laid to one end of the joists, out to about one and a
half metres our from the wall.

What I'd like you guys help with is.

Is there a way to sort of isolate that end of the joists, and to strengthen
them enough to be able to lay ceramic tiles successfully?

How much should I expect to be doing in repairs to the neighbours ceiling.
(would a bribe help before I start the job?)

All suggestions, as long as they are clean and viable, will be most
appreciably accepted.

Ta much for reading this.



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"BigWallop" wrote in message
...
Hi Peoples,

I am having a nightmare about laying floor tiles on an old (very old)
suspended floor. I know that the floor is way over one hundred years old
and is now nail sick and sagging. The joist ends are good and in position
on their pads, of which a few have been changed, and all is fine with
strength and soundness to keep us safe from falling into the downstairs
neighbours kitchen.

The problem I am thinking of is deflection of the joists as they feel like
the noggins are now loose, or have been cut by other trades over the
years,
and are not tight enough in place to prevent the bouncing like a
trampoline.

We definitely can't move out of the house while the I lift the whole floor
to strengthen it. And I don't really want to ask the neighbour if I can
rip
their ceiling down to fix our joists. Another worry is, if I start to fix
the joists, How Much Damage, can I expect to be fixing on the neighbours
latth and plaster ceiling. :-))

So the whole scenario goes like this.

The tiles are being laid to one end of the joists, out to about one and a
half metres our from the wall.

What I'd like you guys help with is.

Is there a way to sort of isolate that end of the joists, and to
strengthen
them enough to be able to lay ceramic tiles successfully?

How much should I expect to be doing in repairs to the neighbours ceiling.
(would a bribe help before I start the job?)

All suggestions, as long as they are clean and viable, will be most
appreciably accepted.



You can buy backing board for situations like this. Looks/feels a bit like
abestos sheet (but isn't) They have it at places like tiles RUs, maybe not
B&Q.
You screw it down on to floor boards etc & then have a good surface to tile
to. I think a special flexible tile adhesive is used. You can pick their
brains at the shop.
It needs lots of screws


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"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...
Hi Peoples,

I am having a nightmare about laying floor tiles on an old (very old)

All suggestions, as long as they are clean and viable, will be most
appreciably accepted.



You can buy backing board for situations like this. Looks/feels a bit

like
abestos sheet (but isn't) They have it at places like tiles RUs, maybe not
B&Q.
You screw it down on to floor boards etc & then have a good surface to

tile
to. I think a special flexible tile adhesive is used. You can pick their
brains at the shop.
It needs lots of screws


Ah Ha !!! Now that would be handy. I've looked at the cost of the flexible
tile adhesive and WOW !!!!!!!! Almost triple the cost of standard sticky
stuff. But I suppose if needs be.

I'm still a bit worried, even with the flexi' adhesive, that the joists will
still bounce a bit to much. I might just go ahead and lift the flooring,
above where the tiles are going, and set some noggins to help strengthen a
little more.

Many thanks for the tips though. Another way of thinking is always helpful.



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Default Floor Tiling. Need lots of help.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 16:46:16 +0100, BigWallop wrote:

and are not tight enough in place to prevent the bouncing like a
trampoline.


You are trying to fix something that is brittle and inflexable onto
something that is flexing, recipe for disaster. The floor needs to be
made firm donno of the board mentioned by another will do that or if
it is only intended to make a smooth flat surface...

--
Cheers
Dave.



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Default Floor Tiling. Need lots of help.


"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 16:46:16 +0100, BigWallop wrote:

and are not tight enough in place to prevent the bouncing like a
trampoline.


You are trying to fix something that is brittle and inflexable onto
something that is flexing, recipe for disaster. The floor needs to be
made firm donno of the board mentioned by another will do that or if
it is only intended to make a smooth flat surface...

Cheers
Dave.


I had a look at the boards that Harry spoke about, and although they look
like a great idea and will probably be used under the tiles, I think that
they might be alright on an already firm floor. As you say, I'm more
worried about the joists flexing in the middle when the kitchen/dining
furniture is put back in place and people are walking across the floor.

These old joists are still sound, but they do move a bit when the weight is
on them. I know the area being tiled is small (1.5m X 4m) in comparison to
the whole floor area (7m X 5m in total), and that the tiles are to one
supported end of the joists, but I'm still worried that the original
noggins, almost certainly positioned just in the center of the 7m span, will
be enough to stop the floor sagging and popping the tiles off. Especially
the tiles along the edge.

I wonder if I should just suck it and see, and prepare for the worst from
the right off.

Now............Does anyone know of a good timber merchant in the Edinburgh
area? :-)




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Default Floor Tiling. Need lots of help.

BigWallop wrote:

I had a look at the boards that Harry spoke about, and although they look
like a great idea and will probably be used under the tiles, I think that
they might be alright on an already firm floor. As you say, I'm more
worried about the joists flexing in the middle when the kitchen/dining
furniture is put back in place and people are walking across the floor.

These old joists are still sound, but they do move a bit when the weight
is
on them. I know the area being tiled is small (1.5m X 4m) in comparison
to the whole floor area (7m X 5m in total), and that the tiles are to one
supported end of the joists, but I'm still worried that the original
noggins, almost certainly positioned just in the center of the 7m span,
will
be enough to stop the floor sagging and popping the tiles off. Especially
the tiles along the edge.

I wonder if I should just suck it and see, and prepare for the worst from
the right off.


Sorry - misse dthe start of this...

Did anyone suggest 18mm ply sheet over the top, well screwed down and tile
to that?
--
Tim Watts
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Default Floor Tiling. Need lots of help.


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:

I had a look at the boards that Harry spoke about, and although they look
like a great idea and will probably be used under the tiles, I think

that
they might be alright on an already firm floor. As you say, I'm more
worried about the joists flexing in the middle when the kitchen/dining
furniture is put back in place and people are walking across the floor.

These old joists are still sound, but they do move a bit when the weight
is
on them. I know the area being tiled is small (1.5m X 4m) in comparison
to the whole floor area (7m X 5m in total), and that the tiles are to

one
supported end of the joists, but I'm still worried that the original
noggins, almost certainly positioned just in the center of the 7m span,
will
be enough to stop the floor sagging and popping the tiles off.

Especially
the tiles along the edge.

I wonder if I should just suck it and see, and prepare for the worst

from
the right off.


Sorry - misse dthe start of this...

Did anyone suggest 18mm ply sheet over the top, well screwed down and tile
to that?

Tim Watts


Thanks for that suggestion Tim, but 18mm would be a huge step up from the
rest of the floor level (18mm + adhesive + tile), and would also mean
cutting a lump off the bottom of a door. I'm still worried that even with
some type of ply or screed boards laid to reinforce the part of the floor
being tiled, even though my thought was to fix 6mm boards on top of the
floorboards, that the joists themselves will bend enough over their length
to pop the tiles back off.

Have done a bit research on adhesives, being normal cement based, resin
reinforced and the full flexible stuff, and they all state that the worst
situation they can withstand is up to 10mm deflection on the floor
structure. I'm sure that these old joists are moving as much as that when
we all gather in the room to chill out etc. I think it's time to gather the
muster, and the time, to go ahead and explore the floor fully to make an
informed decision on what to do.

Once more into the breach, dear friends. LOL



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BigWallop wrote:


Thanks for that suggestion Tim, but 18mm would be a huge step up from the
rest of the floor level (18mm + adhesive + tile), and would also mean
cutting a lump off the bottom of a door.


I've got a couple of bedroom floors with steps like that due to engineered
wood over insulation panels on concrete. It's actually fine - but I put oak
thresholds in and planed a chamfer on them to avoid having a trip hazard.

Trimming the door is easy - take it off and run a circular saw, a jigsaw or
a handsaw over it

I'm still worried that even with
some type of ply or screed boards laid to reinforce the part of the floor
being tiled, even though my thought was to fix 6mm boards on top of the
floorboards, that the joists themselves will bend enough over their length
to pop the tiles back off.


I think, given how you have described your floor, 18mm ply would be just on
the edge of "will probably be OK". Any less (or none) and I'd give up and
stick vinyl down!

Can you replace the floorboards with ply? Ply glued and screwed to the
joists is a *lot* stiffer than boards so you buy more stiffness for your
thickness. As you are tiling the floor, there's not much to be lost by
gluing the ply too. But if that worries you, use screws every 10cm or so
into every joist (not just round the edges of the ply).

Have done a bit research on adhesives, being normal cement based, resin
reinforced and the full flexible stuff, and they all state that the worst
situation they can withstand is up to 10mm deflection on the floor
structure. I'm sure that these old joists are moving as much as that when
we all gather in the room to chill out etc. I think it's time to gather
the muster, and the time, to go ahead and explore the floor fully to make
an informed decision on what to do.

Once more into the breach, dear friends. LOL


You'd definately want the best flexible stuff - something made by BAL or
Mapei. Some are "ready to mix" flexible, some are "regular" to which to buy
and mix with a flexible additive liquid.

Don't forget, you'll want "flexible" grout too - I used Mapei Keracolor with
Fugolastic additive when tiling over flexible substrates.

Cheers,

Tim

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"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:


Thanks for that suggestion Tim, but 18mm would be a huge step up from

the
rest of the floor level (18mm + adhesive + tile), and would also mean
cutting a lump off the bottom of a door.


I've got a couple of bedroom floors with steps like that due to engineered
wood over insulation panels on concrete. It's actually fine - but I put

oak
thresholds in and planed a chamfer on them to avoid having a trip hazard.

Trimming the door is easy - take it off and run a circular saw, a jigsaw

or
a handsaw over it


I really don't want a step up on to the tiled area, and to prevent that
means boarding over the whole floor. Not an option this time.


I'm still worried that even with
some type of ply or screed boards laid to reinforce the part of the

floor
being tiled, even though my thought was to fix 6mm boards on top of the
floorboards, that the joists themselves will bend enough over their

length
to pop the tiles back off.


I think, given how you have described your floor, 18mm ply would be just

on
the edge of "will probably be OK". Any less (or none) and I'd give up and
stick vinyl down!

Can you replace the floorboards with ply? Ply glued and screwed to the
joists is a *lot* stiffer than boards so you buy more stiffness for your
thickness. As you are tiling the floor, there's not much to be lost by
gluing the ply too. But if that worries you, use screws every 10cm or so
into every joist (not just round the edges of the ply).


Now then. That's an idea. Remove the old boards, which are quiet nail
sick, and lay new chipboard flooring. These old boards are nearly an inch
thick, so chipboard flooring matches better in thickness.

While I'm under that part of the floor, it;s easy to bash in a line of
noggins to make the joist don't wobble. Thank you for that suggestion, Tim.


Have done a bit research on adhesives, being normal cement based, resin
reinforced and the full flexible stuff, and they all state that the

worst
situation they can withstand is up to 10mm deflection on the floor
structure. I'm sure that these old joists are moving as much as that

when
we all gather in the room to chill out etc. I think it's time to gather
the muster, and the time, to go ahead and explore the floor fully to

make
an informed decision on what to do.

Once more into the breach, dear friends. LOL


You'd definately want the best flexible stuff - something made by BAL or
Mapei. Some are "ready to mix" flexible, some are "regular" to which to

buy
and mix with a flexible additive liquid.

Don't forget, you'll want "flexible" grout too - I used Mapei Keracolor

with
Fugolastic additive when tiling over flexible substrates.

Cheers,

Tim


These little ideas are a big help. I think I got myself blinckered by the
preparation needing done. But it's not a big job after all.

Many thanks Guys.



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BigWallop wrote:


Can you replace the floorboards with ply? Ply glued and screwed to the
joists is a *lot* stiffer than boards so you buy more stiffness for your
thickness. As you are tiling the floor, there's not much to be lost by
gluing the ply too. But if that worries you, use screws every 10cm or so
into every joist (not just round the edges of the ply).


Now then. That's an idea. Remove the old boards, which are quiet nail
sick, and lay new chipboard flooring. These old boards are nearly an inch
thick, so chipboard flooring matches better in thickness.

While I'm under that part of the floor, it;s easy to bash in a line of
noggins to make the joist don't wobble. Thank you for that suggestion,
Tim.


Ok - there's a plan then.

As I don't to be responsible when you come back in 3 months saying the tiles
are cracking, here is what *I* would do:

While you have some of the floor up, go and buy some ply insmall section
size (Wickes or B&Q sell cuts - you want the 2x4 foot size as it's small and
cheap enough.

Remove enough boards to put that direct to joists, and screw every 10cm or
so. Now you can do some deflection tests. Your worst enemy will be the
washing machine on spin - the weight and dynamic loadings will be very high.

If your floorboards were 25mm thick, you could even consider going up a
thickness in ply if it seems necessary. Depends a lot on your joist spacings
but tiled floors are commonly done by tiling to ply over joists and I have
seen at least one and that was fine.

Don't forget to have a plan about underfloor services - like not having them
under the tiled area or you will regret it :-o

Cheers,

Tim

--
Tim Watts
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