[David WE Roberts[_2_]]

Just assembling my 12V battery cables for the camper.

External diameter of copper cable inner is around 5mm.
Internal diameter of connector (ring terminal) is nearly 8mm.
So not a tight fit.

I was intending to crimp - not sure now if I should cut a slot in the tube
to allow the connector to crimp down further or just flatten it out to get a
grip.
Looks as though it has been folded then welded/brazed shut so I would be
undoing this last bit.
As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.
Just solder doesn't look as though it would give a secure enough joint - and
I've never soldered multi-strand wire this thick before.

Items are http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...55/category/32 item
070907
and
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...2/category/124 item 010601

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[[email protected]]

On Jul 16, 4:46*pm, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:
Just assembling my 12V battery cables for the camper.

External diameter of copper cable inner is around 5mm.
Internal diameter of connector (ring terminal) is nearly 8mm.
So not a tight fit.

I was intending to crimp - not sure now if I should cut a slot in the tube
to allow the connector to crimp down further or just flatten it out to get a
grip.
Looks as though it has been folded then welded/brazed shut so I would be
undoing this last bit.
As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.
Just solder doesn't look as though it would give a secure enough joint - and
I've never soldered multi-strand wire this thick before.

Items arehttp://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/155/category/32item
070907
andhttp://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/752/category/124item 010601

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Step 1 - Buy the right terminal - one that fits closely.

With a fine multistrand cable like that, I would crimp (with the right
terminal, and a heavy duty tool), and possibly solder as well (if I
had a hefty enough soldering iron).

[Frank Erskine]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

Just assembling my 12V battery cables for the camper.

External diameter of copper cable inner is around 5mm.
Internal diameter of connector (ring terminal) is nearly 8mm.
So not a tight fit.

I was intending to crimp - not sure now if I should cut a slot in the tube
to allow the connector to crimp down further or just flatten it out to get a
grip.
Looks as though it has been folded then welded/brazed shut so I would be
undoing this last bit.
As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.
Just solder doesn't look as though it would give a secure enough joint - and
I've never soldered multi-strand wire this thick before.

Items are http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...55/category/32 item
070907
and
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...2/category/124 item 010601

You could sleeve the wire with a very short bit of 8mm "microbore"
copper pipe. The whole lot should crimp up better.

--
Frank Erskine

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
,
wrote:
With a fine multistrand cable like that, I would crimp (with the right
terminal, and a heavy duty tool), and possibly solder as well (if I
had a hefty enough soldering iron).

Easier to use a small blowlamp.

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Peter Parry]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.

With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.

[tony sayer]

In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.

With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.



Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...
--
Tony Sayer

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.



Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Try making a solder connection to a terminal that can be crimped and a
second crimped one. Flex the wire until it breaks. The solder one will do
so much sooner.

--
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Bill]

In message , tony sayer
writes
In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.

With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.



Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Hi Tony,

If you tin the wire first and then crimp, the solder has a habit of
creeping over time and loosening the joint.

If you solder to the crimp tag then you have a solid firm joint that
with vibration/movement may fracture.

With just a crimp there is a bit more flexibility at the junction of the
cable and crimp.



I'm sure someone will be along in a while to give a better explanation,
I have seen it discussed here before.

--
Bill

[geoff]

In message , tony sayer
writes
In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.

With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.



Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Reduced flexibility, individual strands are liable to break away

I remember there was a long discussion here years ago when {what was his
name who worked for the BBC and rode a bike} brought up the discussion
with regard to motorbike harnesses

--
geoff

[Peter Parry]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:28:04 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:


Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Firstly, many solder joints are not well done, secondly the solder
wicks up the cable and creates a short rigid length of cable going
beyond the neck of the connector. The heat partially embrtittles the
cable and its insulated coating and the wire breaks more easily at
the "hard spot" at the sharp solder boundary. In addition the flux
can cause corrosion.

Almost the only reason for failure in crimp connectors is the use of
incorrect tools such as the silly pliers supplied with cheap crimp
kits. You even get some people trying to attach crimp joints using
pliers or wire cutters.

For high current (several hundred amp) cables it is usually better to
cut the wires to length and pay someone with the right hydraulic tools
to fit the terminations.

[tony sayer]

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.



Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Try making a solder connection to a terminal that can be crimped and a
second crimped one. Flex the wire until it breaks. The solder one will do
so much sooner.


Who said anything about destructive testing;?..
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article , Bill
scribeth thus
In message , tony sayer
writes
In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.

With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.



Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Hi Tony,

If you tin the wire first and then crimp, the solder has a habit of
creeping over time and loosening the joint.

If you solder to the crimp tag then you have a solid firm joint that
with vibration/movement may fracture.

With just a crimp there is a bit more flexibility at the junction of the
cable and crimp.



I'm sure someone will be along in a while to give a better explanation,
I have seen it discussed here before.


Done both overt time and can't recall any failures..
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:28:04 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:


Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Firstly, many solder joints are not well done, secondly the solder
wicks up the cable and creates a short rigid length of cable going
beyond the neck of the connector. The heat partially embrtittles the
cable and its insulated coating and the wire breaks more easily at
the "hard spot" at the sharp solder boundary. In addition the flux
can cause corrosion.

Cannot say I've ever seen that happen.. Unless you deliberately mistreat
joints..


Almost the only reason for failure in crimp connectors is the use of
incorrect tools such as the silly pliers supplied with cheap crimp
kits. You even get some people trying to attach crimp joints using
pliers or wire cutters.

Indeed as you get "iffy" soldered joints;!..


For high current (several hundred amp) cables it is usually better to
cut the wires to length and pay someone with the right hydraulic tools
to fit the terminations.

Yes a decent crimp like a decent soldered joint and I've seen enough bad
ones in my time!..

So the only failure is that the solder might creep up the cable and
cause a fracture, no other reason then?..
--
Tony Sayer

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

tony sayer wrote:
In article , Bill
scribeth thus
In message , tony sayer
writes
In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.
With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.


Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...
Hi Tony,

If you tin the wire first and then crimp, the solder has a habit of
creeping over time and loosening the joint.

If you solder to the crimp tag then you have a solid firm joint that
with vibration/movement may fracture.

With just a crimp there is a bit more flexibility at the junction of the
cable and crimp.



I'm sure someone will be along in a while to give a better explanation,
I have seen it discussed here before.


Done both overt time and can't recall any failures..

He has it aright. Maybe you have done static installations. I've done a
lot of R/C and a fair bit of mobile kit. Yes, they can and do fail where
the solder stops.

the secret is to extend the support to the wire insulation upstream of
the joint in some way. Heatshrink, epoxy resin.... and if you must use
solder, use solder for the whole joint. Don't crimp soldered wire

[Nick Leverton]

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.



Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...

Try making a solder connection to a terminal that can be crimped and a
second crimped one. Flex the wire until it breaks. The solder one will do
so much sooner.


Who said anything about destructive testing;?..

I think Murphy usually does that bit post-installation !

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

[mick[_2_]]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

Just assembling my 12V battery cables for the camper.

External diameter of copper cable inner is around 5mm. Internal diameter
of connector (ring terminal) is nearly 8mm. So not a tight fit.

I was intending to crimp - not sure now if I should cut a slot in the
tube to allow the connector to crimp down further or just flatten it out
to get a grip.
Looks as though it has been folded then welded/brazed shut so I would be
undoing this last bit.
As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should
run some solder in as well.
Just solder doesn't look as though it would give a secure enough joint -
and I've never soldered multi-strand wire this thick before.

Items are http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...55/category/32
item 070907
and
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...2/category/124 item
010601



Got the wrong size crimps then? That sounds like 16mm2 cable to me, with
(probably) a 25mm2 lug. Filling them with solder is never really
satisfactory in the long term. It may be worth finding someone who will
donate a couple of smaller crimps & fit them with a proper crimping tool.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Filtering everything posted from googlegroups to kill spam.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
geoff writes:

I remember there was a long discussion here years ago when {what was his
name who worked for the BBC and rode a bike} brought up the discussion
with regard to motorbike harnesses

Matthew Marks?
Worked for BBC and used to do our FAQ, but I don't know about the bike bit.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[geoff]

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
geoff writes:

I remember there was a long discussion here years ago when {what was his
name who worked for the BBC and rode a bike} brought up the discussion
with regard to motorbike harnesses

Matthew Marks?
Worked for BBC and used to do our FAQ, but I don't know about the bike bit.

Thats him

--
geoff

[David WE Roberts[_2_]]

"mick" wrote in message
b.com...
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

Just assembling my 12V battery cables for the camper.

External diameter of copper cable inner is around 5mm. Internal diameter
of connector (ring terminal) is nearly 8mm. So not a tight fit.

I was intending to crimp - not sure now if I should cut a slot in the
tube to allow the connector to crimp down further or just flatten it out
to get a grip.
Looks as though it has been folded then welded/brazed shut so I would be
undoing this last bit.
As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should
run some solder in as well.
Just solder doesn't look as though it would give a secure enough joint -
and I've never soldered multi-strand wire this thick before.

Items are http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...55/category/32
item 070907
and
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...2/category/124 item
010601



Got the wrong size crimps then? That sounds like 16mm2 cable to me, with
(probably) a 25mm2 lug. Filling them with solder is never really
satisfactory in the long term. It may be worth finding someone who will
donate a couple of smaller crimps & fit them with a proper crimping tool.


The link shows a 20mm^2 cable - so I assume it is this.
The other link offers connectors up to 16mm^2 and up to 25mm^2.
So for 20mm^2 I have to go for the 'up to 25mm^2'.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[tony sayer]

In article , The Natural Philosopher
scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Bill
scribeth thus
In message , tony sayer
writes
In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.
With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.


Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...
Hi Tony,

If you tin the wire first and then crimp, the solder has a habit of
creeping over time and loosening the joint.

If you solder to the crimp tag then you have a solid firm joint that
with vibration/movement may fracture.

With just a crimp there is a bit more flexibility at the junction of the
cable and crimp.



I'm sure someone will be along in a while to give a better explanation,
I have seen it discussed here before.


Done both overt time and can't recall any failures..

He has it aright. Maybe you have done static installations. I've done a
lot of R/C and a fair bit of mobile kit. Yes, they can and do fail where
the solder stops.

Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...


the secret is to extend the support to the wire insulation upstream of
the joint in some way. Heatshrink, epoxy resin.... and if you must use
solder, use solder for the whole joint. Don't crimp soldered wire

--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article , David WE Roberts
scribeth thus

"mick" wrote in message
eb.com...
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

Just assembling my 12V battery cables for the camper.

External diameter of copper cable inner is around 5mm. Internal diameter
of connector (ring terminal) is nearly 8mm. So not a tight fit.

I was intending to crimp - not sure now if I should cut a slot in the
tube to allow the connector to crimp down further or just flatten it out
to get a grip.
Looks as though it has been folded then welded/brazed shut so I would be
undoing this last bit.
As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should
run some solder in as well.
Just solder doesn't look as though it would give a secure enough joint -
and I've never soldered multi-strand wire this thick before.

Items are http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...55/category/32
item 070907
and
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.u...2/category/124 item
010601



Got the wrong size crimps then? That sounds like 16mm2 cable to me, with
(probably) a 25mm2 lug. Filling them with solder is never really
satisfactory in the long term. It may be worth finding someone who will
donate a couple of smaller crimps & fit them with a proper crimping tool.


The link shows a 20mm^2 cable - so I assume it is this.
The other link offers connectors up to 16mm^2 and up to 25mm^2.
So for 20mm^2 I have to go for the 'up to 25mm^2'.


We used to use over size lugs on 40 kW TV 'mitters and they had to be
sort of crimped and soldered .. dunno know quite why except that the BBC
wanted them that way;!...
--
Tony Sayer

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...

Soldering is obviously fine on connectors designed for it. But on cars and
in this case a camper, all the loom connectors are crimped. Of course on
such a large cable it may not make much difference in the end. Although
it's probably easier to make a reasonable solder joint than crimp, if you
don't have the correct crimping tool. Assuming you can solder. ;-)

--
*Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush hour?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

tony sayer wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Bill
scribeth thus
In message , tony sayer
writes
In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:53 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

As it isn't as snug as I was expecting I am now wondering if I should run
some solder in as well.
With the right tool and matching crimp and cable a crimp connection
will almost always be more secure and reliable than a solder
connection. This is especially so if the joint is exposed to
vibration. Adding solder to a good crimp joint reduces its
reliability.


Why should that be?. Not that you'd what to do both normally;!...
Hi Tony,

If you tin the wire first and then crimp, the solder has a habit of
creeping over time and loosening the joint.

If you solder to the crimp tag then you have a solid firm joint that
with vibration/movement may fracture.

With just a crimp there is a bit more flexibility at the junction of the
cable and crimp.



I'm sure someone will be along in a while to give a better explanation,
I have seen it discussed here before.

Done both overt time and can't recall any failures..
He has it aright. Maybe you have done static installations. I've done a
lot of R/C and a fair bit of mobile kit. Yes, they can and do fail where
the solder stops.

Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...


crimping soft solder is bad, because it has low elasticity. It ends up
progressively squashing under stress, getting loose and falling out.

the secret is to extend the support to the wire insulation upstream of
the joint in some way. Heatshrink, epoxy resin.... and if you must use
solder, use solder for the whole joint. Don't crimp soldered wire

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...

Soldering is obviously fine on connectors designed for it. But on cars and
in this case a camper, all the loom connectors are crimped. Of course on
such a large cable it may not make much difference in the end. Although
it's probably easier to make a reasonable solder joint than crimp, if you
don't have the correct crimping tool. Assuming you can solder. ;-)

Cars are crimped because its cheaper than doing a proper supported
solder job. And its very good with automatic equipment. Soldering is a
more manual process.

[dennis@home]

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...

Soldering is obviously fine on connectors designed for it. But on cars
and
in this case a camper, all the loom connectors are crimped. Of course on
such a large cable it may not make much difference in the end. Although
it's probably easier to make a reasonable solder joint than crimp, if you
don't have the correct crimping tool. Assuming you can solder. ;-)

Cars are crimped because its cheaper than doing a proper supported solder
job. And its very good with automatic equipment. Soldering is a more
manual process.


They are crimped because it is more reliable in the environment.

I wonder if they solder the looms on aircraft?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Cars are crimped because its cheaper than doing a proper supported
solder job. And its very good with automatic equipment. Soldering is a
more manual process.

Your computer is soldered by hand?

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Bolted[_3_]]

On Jul 19, 12:44*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Cars are crimped because its cheaper than doing a proper supported
solder job. And its very good with automatic equipment. Soldering is a
more manual process.

Your computer is soldered by hand?

His keyboard clearly was. One hand, blindfold.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

dennis@home wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder
wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...

Soldering is obviously fine on connectors designed for it. But on
cars and
in this case a camper, all the loom connectors are crimped. Of course on
such a large cable it may not make much difference in the end. Although
it's probably easier to make a reasonable solder joint than crimp, if
you
don't have the correct crimping tool. Assuming you can solder. ;-)

Cars are crimped because its cheaper than doing a proper supported
solder job. And its very good with automatic equipment. Soldering is a
more manual process.


They are crimped because it is more reliable in the environment.

I wonder if they solder the looms on aircraft?

That depends. The way I was taught in the 60's was to solder the loom
but absolutely to have a tie to tie the loom to the structure so it
couldn't flex with respect to the joint.

Crimps CAN be more reliable, but are prone to corrosion inside the crimp
itself.

As any car electrician can tell you.

I would say that solder is far more reliable than a mechanical
connection PROVIDED the strain relief is done properly. If it is not,
crimps are far more reliable.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Cars are crimped because its cheaper than doing a proper supported
solder job. And its very good with automatic equipment. Soldering is a
more manual process.

Your computer is soldered by hand?

Wires mostly are, yes.

That is,flexible cables.

Except of course they are not - we use the IDC which is a sort of crimp,
and ribbon cables.

I.e. making soldered wire looms is hard to do on automatic kit.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Crimps CAN be more reliable, but are prone to corrosion inside the crimp
itself.

As any car electrician can tell you.

Only badly made ones. Properly done, they are airtight.

--
*El nino made me do it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Crimps CAN be more reliable, but are prone to corrosion inside the crimp
itself.

As any car electrician can tell you.

Only badly made ones. Properly done, they are airtight.



Not on any typical car loom I have seen. Just look at the BT style of
crimp for telephone cables. Jelly filled, self amalg tape..and they
STILL fail.

[tony sayer]

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...

Soldering is obviously fine on connectors designed for it. But on cars and
in this case a camper, all the loom connectors are crimped.

Yes they don't solder those anymore too expensive to do..

Of course on
such a large cable it may not make much difference in the end. Although
it's probably easier to make a reasonable solder joint than crimp, if you
don't have the correct crimping tool. Assuming you can solder. ;-)

Yes had plenty of practice and crimping both are good if done well..
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article , The Natural Philosopher
scribeth thus
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Crimps CAN be more reliable, but are prone to corrosion inside the crimp
itself.

As any car electrician can tell you.

Only badly made ones. Properly done, they are airtight.



Not on any typical car loom I have seen. Just look at the BT style of
crimp for telephone cables. Jelly filled, self amalg tape..and they
STILL fail.


I'd umm .. hardly call them crimps like the IDC connectors .. still
theres a hellva lot of them out there anyway...

--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

Mobile and static not aircraft tho;!. But apart from this solder wicking
effect which might cause a mech fail if the joint was pulled around
enough, don't seem to be any other failure mode does there?...


crimping soft solder is bad, because it has low elasticity. It ends up
progressively squashing under stress, getting loose and falling out.


Well yes but that depends how much solder there is in there...

the secret is to extend the support to the wire insulation upstream of
the joint in some way. Heatshrink, epoxy resin.... and if you must use
solder, use solder for the whole joint. Don't crimp soldered wire


--
Tony Sayer

[[email protected]]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Crimps CAN be more reliable, but are prone to corrosion inside the crimp
itself.

As any car electrician can tell you.

Only badly made ones. Properly done, they are airtight.



Not on any typical car loom I have seen. Just look at the BT style of
crimp for telephone cables. Jelly filled, self amalg tape..and they
STILL fail.

The crimps used on car wiring are nearly always 'uninsulated' crimps
which I suspect are much less good at being airtight.

--
Chris Green

[Ron Lowe[_3_]]

On 19/07/2011 11:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

crimping soft solder is bad, because it has low elasticity. It ends up
progressively squashing under stress, getting loose and falling out.


Right, so we are agreed that soldering ( tinning ) then crimping is bad.

But what about the reverse:
Crimping then soldering?

Strip the wire a tad longer than you might otherwise,
Crimp it normally, but there will be some short excess poking through
the crimp tunnel toward the eyelet.
Apply solder from that end such that it wicks back down toward the
tunnel entrance and around the base of the body. Not too much so that
it flows round the entire eyelet, or even makes an uneven surface for
the screw/washer that will go through the eyelet.

--
R

[Peter Parry]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:11:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Just look at the BT style of
crimp for telephone cables. Jelly filled, self amalg tape..and they
STILL fail.

Considering how many millions of those are in use the failure rate is
negligible. I'm not sure why one would ever waste time putting tape
over them as they work very reliably as they are. (Again assuming they
are assembled with the correct tooling - I've seen electricians using
girt big pliers to crush them flat).

There are no critical applications (aerospace, nautical,
communications or vehicle) where solder connectors are recommended
over crimp connectors. In most such applications solder connections
are prohibited.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
There are no critical applications (aerospace, nautical,
communications or vehicle) where solder connectors are recommended
over crimp connectors. In most such applications solder connections
are prohibited.

That supports what I've read and believe to be so.

--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[John Williamson]

Ron Lowe wrote:
On 19/07/2011 11:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

crimping soft solder is bad, because it has low elasticity. It ends up
progressively squashing under stress, getting loose and falling out.


Right, so we are agreed that soldering ( tinning ) then crimping is bad.

But what about the reverse:
Crimping then soldering?

Strip the wire a tad longer than you might otherwise,
Crimp it normally, but there will be some short excess poking through
the crimp tunnel toward the eyelet.
Apply solder from that end such that it wicks back down toward the
tunnel entrance and around the base of the body. Not too much so that
it flows round the entire eyelet, or even makes an uneven surface for
the screw/washer that will go through the eyelet.

Apart from the creeping problem, soldering a joint raises the stress on
the wire where the solder finishes. That's where it fails under
vibration. It changes the failure mode from a (normally) gradual failure
inside the crimp connector to a relatively sudden failure a short
distance away from the connector.

In my experience, and suchlike......

--
Tciao for Now!

John.