My ideal elan 2 50FF was failing to ignite automatically having checked it
over for loose connections I switched the electrics back on and it still
failed to light. Whereupon I decided to put the bottom plate which is just
really to prevent anything from getting into the electrics it wouldn`t quite
fit so I had to be rough with it and accidentally knocked the side of the
boiler, whereupon the boiler started clicking and fired up. Now the boiler
lights but after a short time anything from 10 to 30 minutes it fails to
ignite but the fan still runs if I give it a thump on the side casing then
the injector fires up.

I have also noticed that the downstairs radiators are not getting as warm as
the upstairs which seems to me to suggest that my pump (13 years old) is
failing. Could this also be related to the problem with the ignition? Maybe
the flow rate is not sufficient and the boiler is refusing to light for
safety reasons. Or is it some other problem perhaps with the Honeywell gas
control?

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on the side
of the boiler.

"a_mcbride" wrote in message
...
My ideal elan 2 50FF was failing to ignite automatically having checked it
over for loose connections I switched the electrics back on and it still
failed to light. Whereupon I decided to put the bottom plate which is just
really to prevent anything from getting into the electrics it wouldn`t
quite
fit so I had to be rough with it and accidentally knocked the side of the
boiler, whereupon the boiler started clicking and fired up. Now the boiler
lights but after a short time anything from 10 to 30 minutes it fails to
ignite but the fan still runs if I give it a thump on the side casing then
the injector fires up.

I have also noticed that the downstairs radiators are not getting as warm
as
the upstairs which seems to me to suggest that my pump (13 years old) is
failing. Could this also be related to the problem with the ignition?
Maybe
the flow rate is not sufficient and the boiler is refusing to light for
safety reasons. Or is it some other problem perhaps with the Honeywell gas
control?

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on the
side
of the boiler.


I assume that your boiler has automatic spark ignition, and just lights when
it needs to rather than having a permanent pilot light?

If so, it sounds similar to my Baxi Solo 70/4 PF.

My boiler is *very* sensitive to the tightness of the screws holding the
outer casing on - tighten them too much, and it fails to fire - even though
the fan is running and it is sparking like mad. I have come to the
conclusion that tightening the screw in some way alters the spark gap and
stops it from working in the correct way (some complicated ionisation
process which I don't fully understand!).

Maybe you have a similar problem. Do you have an installation manual which
shows you how to check and adjust the gap? If so, have a go at that.

HTH,
Roger

I have just had a problem with my combi failing to ignite. It turns out that
the
pump has failed, and these things have so many interlocks on them that they
won't try and ignite if there's a problem in some other part of the boiler,
e.g.
a failed pump, so you could be right. The fitter chap who looked at mine
took
the plastic cover off the electrics at the side of the pump and measured a
voltage
there with his meter ( mains 50Hz I think ), so if your pump has a voltage
at its
terminals but isn't operating then that could be your problem. So could a
host of other
things mind. He also took a large slotted screwhead off the front of the
pump and
waggled a screwdriver in the rotor shaft end behind to see if he could turn
it, but
declared it stuck - another thing you could try if you're technically
minded.
The ionisation sensor apparently is at the opposite end of the flame
burner to the
spark gap electrodes - it checks to see that the flame front has spread
right from one
end of the burner to the other. I imagine if it has gone duff then the unit
won't light as
it thinks the burner hasn't lit completely.

Andy.

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...

"a_mcbride" wrote in message
...
My ideal elan 2 50FF was failing to ignite automatically having checked
it
over for loose connections I switched the electrics back on and it still
failed to light. Whereupon I decided to put the bottom plate which is
just
really to prevent anything from getting into the electrics it wouldn`t
quite
fit so I had to be rough with it and accidentally knocked the side of
the
boiler, whereupon the boiler started clicking and fired up. Now the
boiler
lights but after a short time anything from 10 to 30 minutes it fails
to
ignite but the fan still runs if I give it a thump on the side casing
then
the injector fires up.

I have also noticed that the downstairs radiators are not getting as
warm
as
the upstairs which seems to me to suggest that my pump (13 years old) is
failing. Could this also be related to the problem with the ignition?
Maybe
the flow rate is not sufficient and the boiler is refusing to light for
safety reasons. Or is it some other problem perhaps with the Honeywell
gas
control?

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on the
side
of the boiler.


I assume that your boiler has automatic spark ignition, and just lights
when
it needs to rather than having a permanent pilot light?

If so, it sounds similar to my Baxi Solo 70/4 PF.

My boiler is *very* sensitive to the tightness of the screws holding the
outer casing on - tighten them too much, and it fails to fire - even
though
the fan is running and it is sparking like mad. I have come to the
conclusion that tightening the screw in some way alters the spark gap and
stops it from working in the correct way (some complicated ionisation
process which I don't fully understand!).

Maybe you have a similar problem. Do you have an installation manual which
shows you how to check and adjust the gap? If so, have a go at that.

HTH,
Roger

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:21:50 +0000, a_mcbride wrote:

My ideal elan 2 50FF was failing to ignite automatically having checked it
over for loose connections I switched the electrics back on and it still
failed to light. Whereupon I decided to put the bottom plate which is just
really to prevent anything from getting into the electrics it wouldn`t quite
fit so I had to be rough with it and accidentally knocked the side of the
boiler, whereupon the boiler started clicking and fired up. Now the boiler
lights but after a short time anything from 10 to 30 minutes it fails to
ignite but the fan still runs if I give it a thump on the side casing then
the injector fires up.

I have also noticed that the downstairs radiators are not getting as warm as
the upstairs which seems to me to suggest that my pump (13 years old) is
failing. Could this also be related to the problem with the ignition? Maybe
the flow rate is not sufficient and the boiler is refusing to light for
safety reasons. Or is it some other problem perhaps with the Honeywell gas
control?

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on the side
of the boiler.

Responding to other posts:
If the flame sensor sees no flame the boiler will lock out or at least
repeatedly try to reignite.
If the casing is not sealing 100% as it should it can be that a draught is
set up which hinders or enables ignition to take place. Ignition should
take place when the casing is proerply sealed.

With ignition problems it is important to divide the problem into smaller
ones.
Where are the sparks?
No sparks = Electric or Electronic Problem/ Failure with something else like the air
flow or its switch/ dead short of HT leads.
Sparks in the worng place: poor insulation on the high tension leads,
electrodes worn in the wrong place.
Sparks in the right place: no gas!, dirt and crud stopping ignition.

The OP may just as easily find that the knock to the boiler disturbed the
air-flow switch as that there is a real problem with the ignition.

The key test is when the knock happened was there initally a big click from the gas
valve (problem is not with the ignition) or did only the ignition sparker
start to be heard.

HTH

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:21:50 +0000, a_mcbride wrote:

My ideal elan 2 50FF was failing to ignite automatically having checked it
over for loose connections I switched the electrics back on and it still
failed to light. Whereupon I decided to put the bottom plate which is just
really to prevent anything from getting into the electrics it wouldn`t quite
fit so I had to be rough with it and accidentally knocked the side of the
boiler, whereupon the boiler started clicking and fired up. Now the boiler
lights but after a short time anything from 10 to 30 minutes it fails to
ignite but the fan still runs if I give it a thump on the side casing then
the injector fires up.

I have also noticed that the downstairs radiators are not getting as warm as
the upstairs which seems to me to suggest that my pump (13 years old) is
failing. Could this also be related to the problem with the ignition? Maybe
the flow rate is not sufficient and the boiler is refusing to light for
safety reasons. Or is it some other problem perhaps with the Honeywell gas
control?

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on the side
of the boiler.

Responding to other posts:
If the flame sensor sees no flame the boiler will lock out or at least
repeatedly try to reignite.

The Elan has a Stelrad 7B pcb inside. It is a fairly primitive
electronic ignition and has no lockout capability, it just keeps on
sparking. It is very prone to the fan control relay going high
resistance (before it melts and sets fire to the pcb). The soldering on
the connectors on the pcb usually tends to be OK, but there could be a
problem with a look wire making intermittent connection with the
connector pin due to breaking.

The OP didn't say whether the fan was working or not. So there could be
a problem with the APS or pcb or both


If the casing is not sealing 100% as it should it can be that a draught is
set up which hinders or enables ignition to take place. Ignition should
take place when the casing is proerply sealed.

With ignition problems it is important to divide the problem into smaller
ones.
Where are the sparks?
No sparks = Electric or Electronic Problem/ Failure with something else
like the air
flow or its switch/ dead short of HT leads.
Sparks in the worng place: poor insulation on the high tension leads,
electrodes worn in the wrong place.
Sparks in the right place: no gas!, dirt and crud stopping ignition.

The OP may just as easily find that the knock to the boiler disturbed the
air-flow switch as that there is a real problem with the ignition.

The key test is when the knock happened was there initally a big click
from the gas
valve (problem is not with the ignition) or did only the ignition sparker
start to be heard.

HTH


--
geoff

Try a new air pressure switch. Its the round disc under the bottom left of
the boiler. take the bottom plate off to see it
"a_mcbride" wrote in message
...
My ideal elan 2 50FF was failing to ignite automatically having checked it
over for loose connections I switched the electrics back on and it still
failed to light. Whereupon I decided to put the bottom plate which is just
really to prevent anything from getting into the electrics it wouldn`t
quite
fit so I had to be rough with it and accidentally knocked the side of the
boiler, whereupon the boiler started clicking and fired up. Now the boiler
lights but after a short time anything from 10 to 30 minutes it fails to
ignite but the fan still runs if I give it a thump on the side casing then
the injector fires up.

I have also noticed that the downstairs radiators are not getting as warm
as
the upstairs which seems to me to suggest that my pump (13 years old) is
failing. Could this also be related to the problem with the ignition?
Maybe
the flow rate is not sufficient and the boiler is refusing to light for
safety reasons. Or is it some other problem perhaps with the Honeywell gas
control?

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on the
side
of the boiler.

geoff wrote:
In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:21:50 +0000, a_mcbride wrote:

My ideal elan 2 50FF was failing to ignite automatically having
checked it over for loose connections I switched the electrics back
on and it still failed to light. Whereupon I decided to put the
bottom plate which is just really to prevent anything from getting
into the electrics it wouldn`t quite fit so I had to be rough with
it and accidentally knocked the side of the boiler, whereupon the
boiler started clicking and fired up. Now the boiler lights but
after a short time anything from 10 to 30 minutes it fails to
ignite but the fan still runs if I give it a thump on the side
casing then the injector fires up.

I have also noticed that the downstairs radiators are not getting
as warm as the upstairs which seems to me to suggest that my pump
(13 years old) is failing. Could this also be related to the
problem with the ignition? Maybe the flow rate is not sufficient
and the boiler is refusing to light for safety reasons. Or is it
some other problem perhaps with the Honeywell gas control?

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on
the side of the boiler.

Responding to other posts:
If the flame sensor sees no flame the boiler will lock out or at
least repeatedly try to reignite.

The Elan has a Stelrad 7B pcb inside. It is a fairly primitive
electronic ignition and has no lockout capability, it just keeps on
sparking. It is very prone to the fan control relay going high
resistance (before it melts and sets fire to the pcb). The soldering
on
the connectors on the pcb usually tends to be OK, but there could be a
problem with a look wire making intermittent connection with the
connector pin due to breaking.

The OP didn't say whether the fan was working or not. So there could
be
a problem with the APS or pcb or both

The fan continues to work when the pilot light is not alight. Have a spare
PCB due to previus problem but same fault occurs with a different PCB. Have
had a look at the APS is there any way of testing this to see if it is
functioning correctly as I don`t fancy buying a part which is not required.

If the casing is not sealing 100% as it should it can be that a
draught is set up which hinders or enables ignition to take place.
Ignition should
take place when the casing is proerply sealed.

I assume case is sealed as ignition occurs but then goes out after a period
of time, surely if the case was not sealed it would not go on for so long a
period can be up to 30 minutes.


With ignition problems it is important to divide the problem into
smaller ones.
Where are the sparks?
No sparks = Electric or Electronic Problem/ Failure with something
else
like the air
flow or its switch/ dead short of HT leads.
Sparks in the worng place: poor insulation on the high tension
leads, electrodes worn in the wrong place.
Sparks in the right place: no gas!, dirt and crud stopping ignition.

Have cleaned all relevant parts.

The OP may just as easily find that the knock to the boiler
disturbed the air-flow switch as that there is a real problem with
the ignition.
My thoughts are moving towards the APS as I said is there a method of
testing this or do I just replace the part?

In message , a_mcbride
writes

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on
the side of the boiler.

Responding to other posts:
If the flame sensor sees no flame the boiler will lock out or at
least repeatedly try to reignite.

The Elan has a Stelrad 7B pcb inside. It is a fairly primitive
electronic ignition and has no lockout capability, it just keeps on
sparking. It is very prone to the fan control relay going high
resistance (before it melts and sets fire to the pcb). The soldering
on
the connectors on the pcb usually tends to be OK, but there could be a
problem with a look wire making intermittent connection with the
connector pin due to breaking.

The OP didn't say whether the fan was working or not. So there could
be
a problem with the APS or pcb or both

The fan continues to work when the pilot light is not alight. Have a spare
PCB due to previus problem but same fault occurs with a different PCB. Have
had a look at the APS is there any way of testing this to see if it is
functioning correctly as I don`t fancy buying a part which is not required.

Yes, having turned off the boiler, you can remove the electrical
connections and test that in the rest position the resistance between
the common and normally closed contacts is zero ohms (to the limit of
your meter).

Sucking or blowing (whichever , I don't know) VERY GENTLY on one of the
tubes to the APS, (i.e. changing over to the normally open position) you
should expect to see the same zero resistance.


If the casing is not sealing 100% as it should it can be that a
draught is set up which hinders or enables ignition to take place.
Ignition should
take place when the casing is proerply sealed.

I assume case is sealed as ignition occurs but then goes out after a period
of time, surely if the case was not sealed it would not go on for so long a
period can be up to 30 minutes.

Heat exchanger scaled ?


With ignition problems it is important to divide the problem into
smaller ones.
Where are the sparks?
No sparks = Electric or Electronic Problem/ Failure with something
else
like the air
flow or its switch/ dead short of HT leads.
Sparks in the worng place: poor insulation on the high tension
leads, electrodes worn in the wrong place.
Sparks in the right place: no gas!, dirt and crud stopping ignition.

Have cleaned all relevant parts.

The OP may just as easily find that the knock to the boiler
disturbed the air-flow switch as that there is a real problem with
the ignition.
My thoughts are moving towards the APS as I said is there a method of
testing this or do I just replace the part?


See above

--
geoff

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 00:40:57 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , a_mcbride
writes

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump on
the side of the boiler.

Responding to other posts:
If the flame sensor sees no flame the boiler will lock out or at
least repeatedly try to reignite.

The Elan has a Stelrad 7B pcb inside. It is a fairly primitive
electronic ignition and has no lockout capability, it just keeps on
sparking. It is very prone to the fan control relay going high
resistance (before it melts and sets fire to the pcb). The soldering
on
the connectors on the pcb usually tends to be OK, but there could be a
problem with a look wire making intermittent connection with the
connector pin due to breaking.

The OP didn't say whether the fan was working or not. So there could
be
a problem with the APS or pcb or both

The fan continues to work when the pilot light is not alight. Have a spare
PCB due to previus problem but same fault occurs with a different PCB. Have
had a look at the APS is there any way of testing this to see if it is
functioning correctly as I don`t fancy buying a part which is not required.

Yes, having turned off the boiler, you can remove the electrical
connections and test that in the rest position the resistance between
the common and normally closed contacts is zero ohms (to the limit of
your meter).

Sucking or blowing (whichever , I don't know) VERY GENTLY on one of the
tubes to the APS, (i.e. changing over to the normally open position) you
should expect to see the same zero resistance.


If the casing is not sealing 100% as it should it can be that a
draught is set up which hinders or enables ignition to take place.
Ignition should
take place when the casing is proerply sealed.

I assume case is sealed as ignition occurs but then goes out after a period
of time, surely if the case was not sealed it would not go on for so long a
period can be up to 30 minutes.

Heat exchanger scaled ?


With ignition problems it is important to divide the problem into
smaller ones.
Where are the sparks?
No sparks = Electric or Electronic Problem/ Failure with something
else
like the air
flow or its switch/ dead short of HT leads.
Sparks in the worng place: poor insulation on the high tension
leads, electrodes worn in the wrong place.
Sparks in the right place: no gas!, dirt and crud stopping ignition.

Have cleaned all relevant parts.

The OP may just as easily find that the knock to the boiler
disturbed the air-flow switch as that there is a real problem with
the ignition.
My thoughts are moving towards the APS as I said is there a method of
testing this or do I just replace the part?



A fairly common problem is the build up of dirt around the inlet to the APS
tubes. This can cause the operation of the APS to become marginal which
becomes slightly more so as the boiler heats up (the density of the flue gases
reduce). The tubes are usually found bewteen the fan and the flue
outlet.

It is quite possible that the jolt to the boiler is able to get the
APS micro-switch to flick over.

As I said before, if the jolt causes a largish click (the gas valve) to
open then the APS system is centre stage. If the gas valve was already
open then maybe the HT leads etc.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Thanks Ed for advice have bitten the bullet and replaced the APS and that
seems to have solved the problem many thanks again for the help and advice.

Andrew

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 00:40:57 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , a_mcbride
writes

Love to solve this with a technical solution rather than a thump
on
the side of the boiler.

Responding to other posts:
If the flame sensor sees no flame the boiler will lock out or at
least repeatedly try to reignite.

The Elan has a Stelrad 7B pcb inside. It is a fairly primitive
electronic ignition and has no lockout capability, it just keeps on
sparking. It is very prone to the fan control relay going high
resistance (before it melts and sets fire to the pcb). The
soldering
on
the connectors on the pcb usually tends to be OK, but there could
be a problem with a look wire making intermittent connection with
the connector pin due to breaking.

The OP didn't say whether the fan was working or not. So there
could
be
a problem with the APS or pcb or both

The fan continues to work when the pilot light is not alight. Have
a spare PCB due to previus problem but same fault occurs with a
different PCB. Have had a look at the APS is there any way of
testing this to see if it is functioning correctly as I don`t fancy
buying a part which is not required.

Yes, having turned off the boiler, you can remove the electrical
connections and test that in the rest position the resistance between
the common and normally closed contacts is zero ohms (to the limit of
your meter).

Sucking or blowing (whichever , I don't know) VERY GENTLY on one of
the tubes to the APS, (i.e. changing over to the normally open
position) you should expect to see the same zero resistance.


If the casing is not sealing 100% as it should it can be that a
draught is set up which hinders or enables ignition to take place.
Ignition should
take place when the casing is proerply sealed.

I assume case is sealed as ignition occurs but then goes out after
a period of time, surely if the case was not sealed it would not go
on for so long a period can be up to 30 minutes.

Heat exchanger scaled ?


With ignition problems it is important to divide the problem into
smaller ones.
Where are the sparks?
No sparks = Electric or Electronic Problem/ Failure with something
else
like the air
flow or its switch/ dead short of HT leads.
Sparks in the worng place: poor insulation on the high tension
leads, electrodes worn in the wrong place.
Sparks in the right place: no gas!, dirt and crud stopping
ignition.

Have cleaned all relevant parts.

The OP may just as easily find that the knock to the boiler
disturbed the air-flow switch as that there is a real problem with
the ignition.
My thoughts are moving towards the APS as I said is there a method
of testing this or do I just replace the part?



A fairly common problem is the build up of dirt around the inlet to
the APS tubes. This can cause the operation of the APS to become
marginal which becomes slightly more so as the boiler heats up (the
density of the flue gases reduce). The tubes are usually found
bewteen the fan and the flue
outlet.

It is quite possible that the jolt to the boiler is able to get the
APS micro-switch to flick over.

As I said before, if the jolt causes a largish click (the gas valve)
to
open then the APS system is centre stage. If the gas valve was already
open then maybe the HT leads etc.