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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

EPC - diy possible?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 4th 11, 12:34 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 115
Default EPC - diy possible?

As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK. A set of bands from A to F is produced, rather
like those used on a new domestic fridge.

These EPCs are only available from an 'accredited energy assessor' at
a fee to be paid by the seller.

What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about 2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?

David J
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  #2  
Old January 4th 11, 01:02 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 143
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:34:01 +0000 David J wrote :
What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about 2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?


The methodology is in the public domain at
http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/

The key issue is that EPCs can only be issued by accredited assessors,
and to be an assessor you need to be signed up in one of the schemes ...
which, as you've realised, doesn't come cheap.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

  #3  
Old January 4th 11, 01:08 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 3,668
Default EPC - diy possible?

David J wrote:
As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK. A set of bands from A to F is produced, rather
like those used on a new domestic fridge.

These EPCs are only available from an 'accredited energy assessor' at
a fee to be paid by the seller.

What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about 2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?

A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.

The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in theory,
impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I would
certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor, should I be buying.

Part of the cost is for the liability insurance. If you think it's
expensive for domestic premises, you should see the cost for commercial
places. I've just had a shop and a flat over it checked, and the shop,
which is basically one room and half the size of the flat, cost over
twice the amount charged for the flat.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #4  
Old January 4th 11, 10:09 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 143
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:08:53 +0000 John Williamson wrote :
A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.

The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in
theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I
would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor,
should I be buying.

Part of the cost is for the liability insurance.


But the reality is that no one cares. I did a lot of work
(pointlessly as it turned out) on my UK home before selling - the
agent said mine was the first older property he'd seen that had a 'C'
rating. Did it make any difference? No. I can't imagine one vendor in
a hundred leaning on the assessor to produce a better rating.

As to liability, surely all you can sue the assessor for is the
difference between what you would have paid had you known that the
property had a 'D' versus what you paid because it purportedly had a
'C' rating. A negligible amount compared with what you might be
claiming for a defective structural survey.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

  #5  
Old January 4th 11, 10:15 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 848
Default EPC - diy possible?

Tony Bryer wrote:
But the reality is that no one cares


Too true. Say to a potential buyer: this house will use 10
a year in heating, and they'll say, No! Gimmie that one!
It's in the right catchment area!!!!

JGH
  #6  
Old January 4th 11, 10:19 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 3,668
Default EPC - diy possible?

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:08:53 +0000 John Williamson wrote :
A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.

The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in
theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I
would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor,
should I be buying.

Part of the cost is for the liability insurance.


But the reality is that no one cares. I did a lot of work
(pointlessly as it turned out) on my UK home before selling - the
agent said mine was the first older property he'd seen that had a 'C'
rating. Did it make any difference? No. I can't imagine one vendor in
a hundred leaning on the assessor to produce a better rating.

As to liability, surely all you can sue the assessor for is the
difference between what you would have paid had you known that the
property had a 'D' versus what you paid because it purportedly had a
'C' rating. A negligible amount compared with what you might be
claiming for a defective structural survey.

See the first line of my post.

All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by
the vendor.

That's why I'd be doing my own searches and survey, no matter what it
said in a HIP, if they still existed.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #7  
Old January 4th 11, 10:47 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 2,112
Default EPC - diy possible?



A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.


Except that taxes get spent on something, perhaps even something useful.

Presumably you can't even just declare an F?
  #8  
Old January 4th 11, 11:08 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 115
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 00:02:02 +1100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:34:01 +0000 David J wrote :
What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about 2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?


The methodology is in the public domain at
http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/


Thanks for that lead... I couldn't find those details anywhere.

It's clear that SAP 2005 is a very complex document, with over 100
boxes to be filled in to reach the final calc.

I cannot imagine one of those accredited assessors working their way
through all that detail/tables of the house construction, although
their s/w obviously reduces this to a manageable level...

(interesting refs to your work on steel beams)



  #9  
Old January 4th 11, 11:53 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 143
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 23:08:39 +0000 David J wrote :
I cannot imagine one of those accredited assessors working their way
through all that detail/tables of the house construction, although
their s/w obviously reduces this to a manageable level...


SAP proper is used for new builds. For EPCs on existing homes, RD
[reduced data] SAP is used, with certain broad-brush assumptions made
which are appropriate for (say) 90% of homes. You can find these in
SAP2005 http://www.bre.co.uk/sap2005 Appendix S. The way in which the
actual rating number translates to a band A-G is in Table 15

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

  #10  
Old January 6th 11, 10:26 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 250
Default EPC - diy possible?

On 04/01/2011 12:34, David J wrote:
As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK.


As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires
that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock
but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this.
The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service.

Another Dave


 




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