UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default EPC - diy possible?

As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK. A set of bands from A to F is produced, rather
like those used on a new domestic fridge.

These EPCs are only available from an 'accredited energy assessor' at
a fee to be paid by the seller.

What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?

David J
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:34:01 +0000 David J wrote :
What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?


The methodology is in the public domain at
http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/

The key issue is that EPCs can only be issued by accredited assessors,
and to be an assessor you need to be signed up in one of the schemes ...
which, as you've realised, doesn't come cheap.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

  #3   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,842
Default EPC - diy possible?

David J wrote:
As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK. A set of bands from A to F is produced, rather
like those used on a new domestic fridge.

These EPCs are only available from an 'accredited energy assessor' at
a fee to be paid by the seller.

What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?

A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.

The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in theory,
impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I would
certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor, should I be buying.

Part of the cost is for the liability insurance. If you think it's
expensive for domestic premises, you should see the cost for commercial
places. I've just had a shop and a flat over it checked, and the shop,
which is basically one room and half the size of the flat, cost over
twice the amount charged for the flat.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #4   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:08:53 +0000 John Williamson wrote :
A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.

The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in
theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I
would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor,
should I be buying.

Part of the cost is for the liability insurance.


But the reality is that no one cares. I did a lot of work
(pointlessly as it turned out) on my UK home before selling - the
agent said mine was the first older property he'd seen that had a 'C'
rating. Did it make any difference? No. I can't imagine one vendor in
a hundred leaning on the assessor to produce a better rating.

As to liability, surely all you can sue the assessor for is the
difference between what you would have paid had you known that the
property had a 'D' versus what you paid because it purportedly had a
'C' rating. A negligible amount compared with what you might be
claiming for a defective structural survey.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

  #5   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 848
Default EPC - diy possible?

Tony Bryer wrote:
But the reality is that no one cares


Too true. Say to a potential buyer: this house will use £10
a year in heating, and they'll say, No! Gimmie that one!
It's in the right catchment area!!!!

JGH


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,842
Default EPC - diy possible?

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:08:53 +0000 John Williamson wrote :
A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.

The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in
theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I
would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor,
should I be buying.

Part of the cost is for the liability insurance.


But the reality is that no one cares. I did a lot of work
(pointlessly as it turned out) on my UK home before selling - the
agent said mine was the first older property he'd seen that had a 'C'
rating. Did it make any difference? No. I can't imagine one vendor in
a hundred leaning on the assessor to produce a better rating.

As to liability, surely all you can sue the assessor for is the
difference between what you would have paid had you known that the
property had a 'D' versus what you paid because it purportedly had a
'C' rating. A negligible amount compared with what you might be
claiming for a defective structural survey.

See the first line of my post.

All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by
the vendor.

That's why I'd be doing my own searches and survey, no matter what it
said in a HIP, if they still existed.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,112
Default EPC - diy possible?



A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.


Except that taxes get spent on something, perhaps even something useful.

Presumably you can't even just declare an F?
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 00:02:02 +1100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:34:01 +0000 David J wrote :
What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only
available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes
the required software used. I realise that the various factors need
loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public
domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special
about energy efficiency?


The methodology is in the public domain at
http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/


Thanks for that lead... I couldn't find those details anywhere.

It's clear that SAP 2005 is a very complex document, with over 100
boxes to be filled in to reach the final calc.

I cannot imagine one of those accredited assessors working their way
through all that detail/tables of the house construction, although
their s/w obviously reduces this to a manageable level...

(interesting refs to your work on steel beams)



  #9   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 23:08:39 +0000 David J wrote :
I cannot imagine one of those accredited assessors working their way
through all that detail/tables of the house construction, although
their s/w obviously reduces this to a manageable level...


SAP proper is used for new builds. For EPCs on existing homes, RD
[reduced data] SAP is used, with certain broad-brush assumptions made
which are appropriate for (say) 90% of homes. You can find these in
SAP2005 http://www.bre.co.uk/sap2005 Appendix S. The way in which the
actual rating number translates to a band A-G is in Table 15

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

  #10   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 460
Default EPC - diy possible?

On 04/01/2011 12:34, David J wrote:
As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK.


As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires
that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock
but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this.
The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service.

Another Dave




  #11   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,235
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Jan 6, 10:26*am, Another Dave wrote:
On 04/01/2011 12:34, David J wrote:

As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK.


As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires
that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock
but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this.
The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service.


It's known as "gold plating" and happens with a lot of EU regs as they
are passed into UK law. Other countries seem to do the bare minimum to
comply, or just ignore them completely. Must be something to do with
the British sense of "justice" and "fair play", LOL!

MBQ

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:07:55 +0000 John Rumm wrote :
Most conveyancing solicitors insisted on doing the same for obvious
reasons. One of the many ways in which HIPs were fundamentally flawed.


Here in Victoria an estate agent is not allowed to accept an offer on a
property unless the prospective purchasers has been given what is called
a section 32 notice - effectively a HIP. I looked at one property as a
potential investment and the s32 revealed outstanding legal action
between the Owners Corporation (similar status as UK freeholder of a
flat) and the original developer; I took no further action and wasn't
out of pocket on survey or legal expenses.

I really don't buy the argument that the vendor might have fiddled the
contents - it would be bound to come out - and as to the argument that
things might have changed since the report was done, they're far more
likely to change in the years that you own the property and no one ever
worries about this.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

  #13   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,842
Default EPC - diy possible?

John Rumm wrote:
On 04/01/2011 22:19, John Williamson wrote:

See the first line of my post.

All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by
the vendor.


Indeed, and understandable. However given the choice of paying for your
own EPC or not having one at all, which would you choose?

As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, I don't have the
choice of having one or not. I've never bought a home with one yet,
though, so the matter didn't come up, though I did poke my head into the
loft and check for insulation amongst other things.

Given that, I'd rather have one prepared by an accredited professional
than Joe Public. The cost is factored into the house price by the agent
anyway, as was the cost of a HIP.

I would guess that energy performance as a deciding factor in which
house to buy is pretty far down the list for most buyers. Especially as
its something you can improve after purchase.

A process which the EPC can help you with, unless you do your own full
survey before purchase. It comes with notes as to how the energy
efficiency can be improved, and a guess as to the result. Knowing what's
recommended can also help the purchaser guess how much it's going to
cost to update the property and adjust their offer accordingly.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,360
Default EPC - diy possible?

John Williamson ) wibbled on Thursday 06
January 2011 12:12:

John Rumm wrote:
On 04/01/2011 22:19, John Williamson wrote:

See the first line of my post.

All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by
the vendor.


Indeed, and understandable. However given the choice of paying for your
own EPC or not having one at all, which would you choose?

As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold,


"Marketed", technically.

Which means you need one as soon as you advertise the property. enforcement
is down to the local council, same dept as do Weights and Measures...

--
Tim Watts
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,175
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Jan 6, 1:44*pm, Tim Watts wrote:

As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold,


"Marketed", technically.


No, sold.

A HIP was needed to market the property. EPC is needed if it's
sold.

We bought our place (two years ago) direct from the seller who had
never marketed it, and had neither HIP nor EPC. We needed to pay for
the EPC ourselves before we could complete, as neither party's
solicitors would permit completion without. As we were buying from a
crazed hippy and we were running out of time on the mortgage offer,
the notion that the seller ought to be paying for it became moot.



  #16   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,360
Default EPC - diy possible?

Andy Dingley ) wibbled on Thursday 06 January 2011
15:02:

On Jan 6, 1:44 pm, Tim Watts wrote:

As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold,


"Marketed", technically.


No, sold.

A HIP was needed to market the property. EPC is needed if it's
sold.


Ah - OK. Fine.

I thought they were part and parcel of the same package...

We bought our place (two years ago) direct from the seller who had
never marketed it, and had neither HIP nor EPC. We needed to pay for
the EPC ourselves before we could complete, as neither party's
solicitors would permit completion without. As we were buying from a
crazed hippy and we were running out of time on the mortgage offer,
the notion that the seller ought to be paying for it became moot.


Interesting sounding vendor...

--
Tim Watts
  #17   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,175
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Jan 6, 3:04*pm, Tim Watts wrote:

Interesting sounding vendor...


Right PITA to be honest.

OTOH, I now have 1,000sq ft of workshop, which is why I was still so
keen to buy it.
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,842
Default EPC - diy possible?

John Rumm wrote:
On 06/01/2011 12:12, John Williamson wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Indeed, and understandable. However given the choice of paying for
your own EPC or not having one at all, which would you choose?

As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, I don't have the
choice of having one or not. I've never bought a home with one yet,


I realise that, hence why I said "given the choice". In other words, say
there were no EPC provided by the vendor (and no legal requirement for
them to do so), would you still commission your own EPC at your expense
for a place you were buying?

No. But *I* can look at most houses closely and come up with more or
less the right answers myself. I do this when I first view the place,
carrying a ladder in the car just in case, and a camera with a decent
lens on a long stick. Then again, I did a course on building
construction as part of a quantity surveying course many years ago, and
have seen what goes on on site which isn't necessarily what is on the
drawings. I can look for and diagnose things like damp patches round
cavity wall ties and such, where the mortar's bridging the cavity.

Without that experience, you'd be wanting to pay a professional for a
full survey anyway, which should include an energy use check of some sort.

though, so the matter didn't come up, though I did poke my head into the
loft and check for insulation amongst other things.

Given that, I'd rather have one prepared by an accredited professional
than Joe Public. The cost is factored into the house price by the agent
anyway, as was the cost of a HIP.


The cost is factored into the agents fees - not quite the same as the
house price.

Splitting the odd hair. The price paid for a property is the amount
received by the vendor plus all the fees. Either way, the cost is
effectively borne by the purchaser, it's just the way it's split.

I would guess that energy performance as a deciding factor in which
house to buy is pretty far down the list for most buyers. Especially
as its something you can improve after purchase.

A process which the EPC can help you with, unless you do your own full
survey before purchase. It comes with notes as to how the energy
efficiency can be improved, and a guess as to the result. Knowing what's
recommended can also help the purchaser guess how much it's going to
cost to update the property and adjust their offer accordingly.


From those that I have seen, I am not convinced. The assessor makes a
visual inspection of the property, and when is not able to see
something, guesses at the answer, even when information to the contrary
is available from the vendor. The result is a work of fantasy that seems
to have little foundation in fact in many cases.

Most of the suggestions made on the one I had done just before Christmas
made good sense for normal use of the flat. It was even more or less
right about the payback periods. It didn't take account of the way I use
the hot water tank in the airing cupboard as a space heater to warm the
bathroom up on cold mornings, then turn the hot water off until the
following night, except for top-ups. The jacket that's sitting waiting
in the airing cupboard for Spring will be put on before I leave. Where
the EPC process could fall down is where the bulding is not of normal
tile roof and brick wall construction. It did, or so I've been told,
regard a thatched roof as being uninsulated if there wasn't any
insulation in the loft space.

The suggested remedies are simply a boilerplate list of things that
could be done. The only concession being to filter out those not
immediately applicable.

Yersss....

I'll not argue except to say that the boilerplate list is there for a
reason.

It was suggested that I replace the convector heaters which run on a
timer only when I'm home and an hour or so either side with storage
heaters, which store up heat when I'm in and let it out while I'm at
work, for instance. If someone's in all day, then they make sense.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,175
Default EPC - diy possible?

In article ,
John Rumm writes:

That was something I noted with mine. It described the loft as
"uninsulated" and quoted the energy efficiency of this as hence "very
poor". The fact that I had converted practically all the loft space into
habitable rooms, and insulated everything to higher than building regs
requirements did not seem to factor. I even gave him the details of the
construction. The very small amount of space that remained as "loft" was
easily visible by the expedient of opening a cupboard door and looking
at the 100mm of PIR foam lining everything, and yet he did not seem to
think that was within his remit!


The folks doing the EPC are mostly clueless. The government originally
thought people with a background in the building trade would come forward
to train, but they actually got no one from the building trade and mostly
people who were unemployed and unskilled. They had to significantly dumb
down the assessment to match the people they got, which is why the EPCs
are so inaccurate as to be useless in many cases.

Apparently, still a lot of houses sold without one.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
  #20   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,360
Default EPC - diy possible?

Andrew Gabriel ) wibbled on Friday 07 January
2011 13:43:


Apparently, still a lot of houses sold without one.


So is it a legal requirement that an EPC is required to convey - or just
something the solicitors are scared to be without in case they get sued?

--
Tim Watts


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,175
Default EPC - diy possible?

In article ,
"Man at B&Q" writes:
On Jan 6, 10:26*am, Another Dave wrote:
On 04/01/2011 12:34, David J wrote:

As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance
Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all
properties in the UK.


As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires
that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock
but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this.
The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service.

It's known as "gold plating" and happens with a lot of EU regs as they
are passed into UK law. Other countries seem to do the bare minimum to
comply, or just ignore them completely. Must be something to do with
the British sense of "justice" and "fair play", LOL!


The other thing is that in many other EU countries, even if they had
a similar piece of legislation, absolutely no one would take any notice
of it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default EPC - diy possible?

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 16:55:45 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

Andrew Gabriel ) wibbled on Friday 07 January
2011 13:43:


Apparently, still a lot of houses sold without one.


So is it a legal requirement that an EPC is required to convey - or just
something the solicitors are scared to be without in case they get sued?



A final reference to SAP 2005 on which the EPC is based.

There is a clause that enquires what percentage of the light sockets
are fitted with low energy lamps.

This specification is aimed at new constructions. So how many new
houses are sold with all the light fittings installed?
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,175
Default EPC - diy possible?

In article ,
David J writes:

A final reference to SAP 2005 on which the EPC is based.

There is a clause that enquires what percentage of the light sockets
are fitted with low energy lamps.

This specification is aimed at new constructions. So how many new
houses are sold with all the light fittings installed?


The two near me were, and all decorated too. I suspect they would
find them significantly harder to sell otherwise, or fetch a lower
price (significantly lower than the cost of decorating and lights).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,307
Default EPC - diy possible?

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
David J writes:

A final reference to SAP 2005 on which the EPC is based.

There is a clause that enquires what percentage of the light sockets
are fitted with low energy lamps.

This specification is aimed at new constructions. So how many new
houses are sold with all the light fittings installed?


The two near me were, and all decorated too. I suspect they would
find them significantly harder to sell otherwise, or fetch a lower
price (significantly lower than the cost of decorating and lights).


It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply with
- 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'.
I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet
fittings dangling with no bulbs in them.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 295
Default EPC - diy possible?

In article , alan@darkroom.
+.com says...
It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply with
- 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'.
I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet
fittings dangling with no bulbs in them.


Since you can get CFLs for 10p or so (dunno why, but I've seen them in
all sorts of places at that price) it's hardly a major expense to
populate all the pendants.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,688
Default EPC - diy possible?

John Rumm wrote:
On 15/01/2011 18:28, Skipweasel wrote:
In ,
alan@darkroom. +.com says...
It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply
with - 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'.
I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet
fittings dangling with no bulbs in them.


Since you can get CFLs for 10p or so (dunno why, but I've seen them
in all sorts of places at that price) it's hardly a major expense to
populate all the pendants.


Building regs require the *fittings* to be low energy - i.e. they
can't be ordinary BC or ES lamp holders, but must be a type that only
take low energy bulbs.

(hence why many electricians have a set of them to install in new
builds to get a house signed off by building control... the fittings
can then move onto the next place!)


A far greener solution than actually leaving them in the house for the new
owners to throw away

--
Adam


  #27   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,175
Default EPC - diy possible?

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 15/01/2011 18:28, Skipweasel wrote:
In , alan@darkroom.
+.com says...
It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply with
- 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'.
I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet
fittings dangling with no bulbs in them.


Since you can get CFLs for 10p or so (dunno why, but I've seen them in
all sorts of places at that price) it's hardly a major expense to
populate all the pendants.


Building regs require the *fittings* to be low energy - i.e. they can't
be ordinary BC or ES lamp holders, but must be a type that only take low
energy bulbs.


I've seen it suggested that this is being removed from building regs,
because of phasing out of filament lamps.

(hence why many electricians have a set of them to install in new builds
to get a house signed off by building control... the fittings can then
move onto the next place!)


--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
  #29   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,688
Default EPC - diy possible?

Skipweasel wrote:

Talking of building regs - who would we lobby to get FENSA's monopoly on
installing windows removed as unnecessary red tape?


http://www.hmg.gov.uk/yourfreedom/

Probably as fruitful as the Number 10 petitions website though ... Oh
too late, the site seems to have closed already ...

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"