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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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EPC - diy possible?
As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But
what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all properties in the UK. A set of bands from A to F is produced, rather like those used on a new domestic fridge. These EPCs are only available from an 'accredited energy assessor' at a fee to be paid by the seller. What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes the required software used. I realise that the various factors need loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage. Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special about energy efficiency? David J |
#2
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EPC - diy possible?
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:34:01 +0000 David J wrote :
What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes the required software used. I realise that the various factors need loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage. Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special about energy efficiency? The methodology is in the public domain at http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/ The key issue is that EPCs can only be issued by accredited assessors, and to be an assessor you need to be signed up in one of the schemes ... which, as you've realised, doesn't come cheap. -- Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com |
#3
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EPC - diy possible?
David J wrote:
As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all properties in the UK. A set of bands from A to F is produced, rather like those used on a new domestic fridge. These EPCs are only available from an 'accredited energy assessor' at a fee to be paid by the seller. What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes the required software used. I realise that the various factors need loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage. Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special about energy efficiency? A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling. The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor, should I be buying. Part of the cost is for the liability insurance. If you think it's expensive for domestic premises, you should see the cost for commercial places. I've just had a shop and a flat over it checked, and the shop, which is basically one room and half the size of the flat, cost over twice the amount charged for the flat. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#4
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EPC - diy possible?
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:08:53 +0000 John Williamson wrote :
A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling. The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor, should I be buying. Part of the cost is for the liability insurance. But the reality is that no one cares. I did a lot of work (pointlessly as it turned out) on my UK home before selling - the agent said mine was the first older property he'd seen that had a 'C' rating. Did it make any difference? No. I can't imagine one vendor in a hundred leaning on the assessor to produce a better rating. As to liability, surely all you can sue the assessor for is the difference between what you would have paid had you known that the property had a 'D' versus what you paid because it purportedly had a 'C' rating. A negligible amount compared with what you might be claiming for a defective structural survey. -- Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com |
#5
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EPC - diy possible?
Tony Bryer wrote:
But the reality is that no one cares Too true. Say to a potential buyer: this house will use £10 a year in heating, and they'll say, No! Gimmie that one! It's in the right catchment area!!!! JGH |
#6
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EPC - diy possible?
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:08:53 +0000 John Williamson wrote : A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling. The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor, should I be buying. Part of the cost is for the liability insurance. But the reality is that no one cares. I did a lot of work (pointlessly as it turned out) on my UK home before selling - the agent said mine was the first older property he'd seen that had a 'C' rating. Did it make any difference? No. I can't imagine one vendor in a hundred leaning on the assessor to produce a better rating. As to liability, surely all you can sue the assessor for is the difference between what you would have paid had you known that the property had a 'D' versus what you paid because it purportedly had a 'C' rating. A negligible amount compared with what you might be claiming for a defective structural survey. See the first line of my post. All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by the vendor. That's why I'd be doing my own searches and survey, no matter what it said in a HIP, if they still existed. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#7
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EPC - diy possible?
A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling. Except that taxes get spent on something, perhaps even something useful. Presumably you can't even just declare an F? |
#8
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EPC - diy possible?
On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 00:02:02 +1100, Tony Bryer
wrote: On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:34:01 +0000 David J wrote : What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes the required software used. I realise that the various factors need loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage. Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special about energy efficiency? The methodology is in the public domain at http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/ Thanks for that lead... I couldn't find those details anywhere. It's clear that SAP 2005 is a very complex document, with over 100 boxes to be filled in to reach the final calc. I cannot imagine one of those accredited assessors working their way through all that detail/tables of the house construction, although their s/w obviously reduces this to a manageable level... (interesting refs to your work on steel beams) |
#9
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EPC - diy possible?
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 23:08:39 +0000 David J wrote :
I cannot imagine one of those accredited assessors working their way through all that detail/tables of the house construction, although their s/w obviously reduces this to a manageable level... SAP proper is used for new builds. For EPCs on existing homes, RD [reduced data] SAP is used, with certain broad-brush assumptions made which are appropriate for (say) 90% of homes. You can find these in SAP2005 http://www.bre.co.uk/sap2005 Appendix S. The way in which the actual rating number translates to a band A-G is in Table 15 -- Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com |
#10
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EPC - diy possible?
On 04/01/2011 12:34, David J wrote:
As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all properties in the UK. As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this. The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service. Another Dave |
#11
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EPC - diy possible?
On Jan 6, 10:26*am, Another Dave wrote:
On 04/01/2011 12:34, David J wrote: As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all properties in the UK. As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this. The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service. It's known as "gold plating" and happens with a lot of EU regs as they are passed into UK law. Other countries seem to do the bare minimum to comply, or just ignore them completely. Must be something to do with the British sense of "justice" and "fair play", LOL! MBQ |
#12
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EPC - diy possible?
On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:07:55 +0000 John Rumm wrote :
Most conveyancing solicitors insisted on doing the same for obvious reasons. One of the many ways in which HIPs were fundamentally flawed. Here in Victoria an estate agent is not allowed to accept an offer on a property unless the prospective purchasers has been given what is called a section 32 notice - effectively a HIP. I looked at one property as a potential investment and the s32 revealed outstanding legal action between the Owners Corporation (similar status as UK freeholder of a flat) and the original developer; I took no further action and wasn't out of pocket on survey or legal expenses. I really don't buy the argument that the vendor might have fiddled the contents - it would be bound to come out - and as to the argument that things might have changed since the report was done, they're far more likely to change in the years that you own the property and no one ever worries about this. -- Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com |
#13
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EPC - diy possible?
John Rumm wrote:
On 04/01/2011 22:19, John Williamson wrote: See the first line of my post. All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by the vendor. Indeed, and understandable. However given the choice of paying for your own EPC or not having one at all, which would you choose? As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, I don't have the choice of having one or not. I've never bought a home with one yet, though, so the matter didn't come up, though I did poke my head into the loft and check for insulation amongst other things. Given that, I'd rather have one prepared by an accredited professional than Joe Public. The cost is factored into the house price by the agent anyway, as was the cost of a HIP. I would guess that energy performance as a deciding factor in which house to buy is pretty far down the list for most buyers. Especially as its something you can improve after purchase. A process which the EPC can help you with, unless you do your own full survey before purchase. It comes with notes as to how the energy efficiency can be improved, and a guess as to the result. Knowing what's recommended can also help the purchaser guess how much it's going to cost to update the property and adjust their offer accordingly. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#14
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EPC - diy possible?
John Williamson ) wibbled on Thursday 06
January 2011 12:12: John Rumm wrote: On 04/01/2011 22:19, John Williamson wrote: See the first line of my post. All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by the vendor. Indeed, and understandable. However given the choice of paying for your own EPC or not having one at all, which would you choose? As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, "Marketed", technically. Which means you need one as soon as you advertise the property. enforcement is down to the local council, same dept as do Weights and Measures... -- Tim Watts |
#15
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EPC - diy possible?
On Jan 6, 1:44*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, "Marketed", technically. No, sold. A HIP was needed to market the property. EPC is needed if it's sold. We bought our place (two years ago) direct from the seller who had never marketed it, and had neither HIP nor EPC. We needed to pay for the EPC ourselves before we could complete, as neither party's solicitors would permit completion without. As we were buying from a crazed hippy and we were running out of time on the mortgage offer, the notion that the seller ought to be paying for it became moot. |
#16
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EPC - diy possible?
Andy Dingley ) wibbled on Thursday 06 January 2011
15:02: On Jan 6, 1:44 pm, Tim Watts wrote: As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, "Marketed", technically. No, sold. A HIP was needed to market the property. EPC is needed if it's sold. Ah - OK. Fine. I thought they were part and parcel of the same package... We bought our place (two years ago) direct from the seller who had never marketed it, and had neither HIP nor EPC. We needed to pay for the EPC ourselves before we could complete, as neither party's solicitors would permit completion without. As we were buying from a crazed hippy and we were running out of time on the mortgage offer, the notion that the seller ought to be paying for it became moot. Interesting sounding vendor... -- Tim Watts |
#17
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EPC - diy possible?
On Jan 6, 3:04*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
Interesting sounding vendor... Right PITA to be honest. OTOH, I now have 1,000sq ft of workshop, which is why I was still so keen to buy it. |
#18
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EPC - diy possible?
John Rumm wrote:
On 06/01/2011 12:12, John Williamson wrote: John Rumm wrote: Indeed, and understandable. However given the choice of paying for your own EPC or not having one at all, which would you choose? As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, I don't have the choice of having one or not. I've never bought a home with one yet, I realise that, hence why I said "given the choice". In other words, say there were no EPC provided by the vendor (and no legal requirement for them to do so), would you still commission your own EPC at your expense for a place you were buying? No. But *I* can look at most houses closely and come up with more or less the right answers myself. I do this when I first view the place, carrying a ladder in the car just in case, and a camera with a decent lens on a long stick. Then again, I did a course on building construction as part of a quantity surveying course many years ago, and have seen what goes on on site which isn't necessarily what is on the drawings. I can look for and diagnose things like damp patches round cavity wall ties and such, where the mortar's bridging the cavity. Without that experience, you'd be wanting to pay a professional for a full survey anyway, which should include an energy use check of some sort. though, so the matter didn't come up, though I did poke my head into the loft and check for insulation amongst other things. Given that, I'd rather have one prepared by an accredited professional than Joe Public. The cost is factored into the house price by the agent anyway, as was the cost of a HIP. The cost is factored into the agents fees - not quite the same as the house price. Splitting the odd hair. The price paid for a property is the amount received by the vendor plus all the fees. Either way, the cost is effectively borne by the purchaser, it's just the way it's split. I would guess that energy performance as a deciding factor in which house to buy is pretty far down the list for most buyers. Especially as its something you can improve after purchase. A process which the EPC can help you with, unless you do your own full survey before purchase. It comes with notes as to how the energy efficiency can be improved, and a guess as to the result. Knowing what's recommended can also help the purchaser guess how much it's going to cost to update the property and adjust their offer accordingly. From those that I have seen, I am not convinced. The assessor makes a visual inspection of the property, and when is not able to see something, guesses at the answer, even when information to the contrary is available from the vendor. The result is a work of fantasy that seems to have little foundation in fact in many cases. Most of the suggestions made on the one I had done just before Christmas made good sense for normal use of the flat. It was even more or less right about the payback periods. It didn't take account of the way I use the hot water tank in the airing cupboard as a space heater to warm the bathroom up on cold mornings, then turn the hot water off until the following night, except for top-ups. The jacket that's sitting waiting in the airing cupboard for Spring will be put on before I leave. Where the EPC process could fall down is where the bulding is not of normal tile roof and brick wall construction. It did, or so I've been told, regard a thatched roof as being uninsulated if there wasn't any insulation in the loft space. The suggested remedies are simply a boilerplate list of things that could be done. The only concession being to filter out those not immediately applicable. Yersss.... I'll not argue except to say that the boilerplate list is there for a reason. It was suggested that I replace the convector heaters which run on a timer only when I'm home and an hour or so either side with storage heaters, which store up heat when I'm in and let it out while I'm at work, for instance. If someone's in all day, then they make sense. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#19
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EPC - diy possible?
In article ,
John Rumm writes: That was something I noted with mine. It described the loft as "uninsulated" and quoted the energy efficiency of this as hence "very poor". The fact that I had converted practically all the loft space into habitable rooms, and insulated everything to higher than building regs requirements did not seem to factor. I even gave him the details of the construction. The very small amount of space that remained as "loft" was easily visible by the expedient of opening a cupboard door and looking at the 100mm of PIR foam lining everything, and yet he did not seem to think that was within his remit! The folks doing the EPC are mostly clueless. The government originally thought people with a background in the building trade would come forward to train, but they actually got no one from the building trade and mostly people who were unemployed and unskilled. They had to significantly dumb down the assessment to match the people they got, which is why the EPCs are so inaccurate as to be useless in many cases. Apparently, still a lot of houses sold without one. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#20
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EPC - diy possible?
Andrew Gabriel ) wibbled on Friday 07 January
2011 13:43: Apparently, still a lot of houses sold without one. So is it a legal requirement that an EPC is required to convey - or just something the solicitors are scared to be without in case they get sued? -- Tim Watts |
#21
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EPC - diy possible?
In article ,
"Man at B&Q" writes: On Jan 6, 10:26*am, Another Dave wrote: On 04/01/2011 12:34, David J wrote: As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all properties in the UK. As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this. The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service. It's known as "gold plating" and happens with a lot of EU regs as they are passed into UK law. Other countries seem to do the bare minimum to comply, or just ignore them completely. Must be something to do with the British sense of "justice" and "fair play", LOL! The other thing is that in many other EU countries, even if they had a similar piece of legislation, absolutely no one would take any notice of it. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#22
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EPC - diy possible?
On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 16:55:45 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:
Andrew Gabriel ) wibbled on Friday 07 January 2011 13:43: Apparently, still a lot of houses sold without one. So is it a legal requirement that an EPC is required to convey - or just something the solicitors are scared to be without in case they get sued? A final reference to SAP 2005 on which the EPC is based. There is a clause that enquires what percentage of the light sockets are fitted with low energy lamps. This specification is aimed at new constructions. So how many new houses are sold with all the light fittings installed? |
#23
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EPC - diy possible?
In article ,
David J writes: A final reference to SAP 2005 on which the EPC is based. There is a clause that enquires what percentage of the light sockets are fitted with low energy lamps. This specification is aimed at new constructions. So how many new houses are sold with all the light fittings installed? The two near me were, and all decorated too. I suspect they would find them significantly harder to sell otherwise, or fetch a lower price (significantly lower than the cost of decorating and lights). -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#24
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EPC - diy possible?
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , David J writes: A final reference to SAP 2005 on which the EPC is based. There is a clause that enquires what percentage of the light sockets are fitted with low energy lamps. This specification is aimed at new constructions. So how many new houses are sold with all the light fittings installed? The two near me were, and all decorated too. I suspect they would find them significantly harder to sell otherwise, or fetch a lower price (significantly lower than the cost of decorating and lights). It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply with - 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'. I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet fittings dangling with no bulbs in them. Alan. -- To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'. |
#25
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EPC - diy possible?
In article , alan@darkroom.
+.com says... It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply with - 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'. I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet fittings dangling with no bulbs in them. Since you can get CFLs for 10p or so (dunno why, but I've seen them in all sorts of places at that price) it's hardly a major expense to populate all the pendants. -- Skipweasel - never knowingly understood. |
#26
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EPC - diy possible?
John Rumm wrote:
On 15/01/2011 18:28, Skipweasel wrote: In , alan@darkroom. +.com says... It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply with - 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'. I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet fittings dangling with no bulbs in them. Since you can get CFLs for 10p or so (dunno why, but I've seen them in all sorts of places at that price) it's hardly a major expense to populate all the pendants. Building regs require the *fittings* to be low energy - i.e. they can't be ordinary BC or ES lamp holders, but must be a type that only take low energy bulbs. (hence why many electricians have a set of them to install in new builds to get a house signed off by building control... the fittings can then move onto the next place!) A far greener solution than actually leaving them in the house for the new owners to throw away -- Adam |
#27
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EPC - diy possible?
In article ,
John Rumm writes: On 15/01/2011 18:28, Skipweasel wrote: In , alan@darkroom. +.com says... It's part of the Building Regs now that the installer has to comply with - 75% of new lights have to be 'energy savers'. I'd presume it would be hard to comply if you left plain bayonet fittings dangling with no bulbs in them. Since you can get CFLs for 10p or so (dunno why, but I've seen them in all sorts of places at that price) it's hardly a major expense to populate all the pendants. Building regs require the *fittings* to be low energy - i.e. they can't be ordinary BC or ES lamp holders, but must be a type that only take low energy bulbs. I've seen it suggested that this is being removed from building regs, because of phasing out of filament lamps. (hence why many electricians have a set of them to install in new builds to get a house signed off by building control... the fittings can then move onto the next place!) -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#28
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EPC - diy possible?
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#29
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EPC - diy possible?
Skipweasel wrote:
Talking of building regs - who would we lobby to get FENSA's monopoly on installing windows removed as unnecessary red tape? http://www.hmg.gov.uk/yourfreedom/ Probably as fruitful as the Number 10 petitions website though ... Oh too late, the site seems to have closed already ... |
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