[jgharston]

Listening to the news today multiple references have been
made about the opposition complaining that there's no
national road grit reserve. I'm just an electrician, and I
left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but do they
mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the
air and so "goes off" after a few weeks? That's like
wanting to have a national cement reserve.

JGH

[Frank Erskine]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800 (PST), jgharston
wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been
made about the opposition complaining that there's no
national road grit reserve. I'm just an electrician, and I
left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but do they
mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the
air and so "goes off" after a few weeks? That's like
wanting to have a national cement reserve.

The grit/salt box at the end of our street is unusable - the contents
are frozen solid. The trouble is that people leave the box open after
they've nicked grit for their own drive/path and fresh snow fills the
box and freezes the stuff.

--
Frank Erskine

[Bob Eager]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800, jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made about the
opposition complaining that there's no national road grit reserve. I'm
just an electrician, and I left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but
do they mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the air and
so "goes off" after a few weeks? That's like wanting to have a national
cement reserve.

And of course, such a reserve would need space, planning permission,
infrastructure, etc. All set up since the election..

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[nightjar]

On 19/12/2010 22:08, jgharston wrote:
Listening to the news today multiple references have been
made about the opposition complaining that there's no
national road grit reserve. I'm just an electrician, and I
left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but do they
mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the
air and so "goes off" after a few weeks?

Anti-caking agents are added to allow gritting salt to be stockpiled for
long periods and salt mines can store stock underground, where the air
is very dry.

Colin Bignell

[cynic]

On Dec 20, 2:38*am, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 19/12/2010 22:08, jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been
made about the opposition complaining that there's no
national road grit reserve. I'm just an electrician, and I
left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but do they
mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the
air and so "goes off" after a few weeks?

Anti-caking agents are added to allow gritting salt to be stockpiled for
long periods and salt mines can store stock underground, where the air
is very dry.

Colin Bignell

Just like it is in its unextracted and dense form?

[mark]

On Dec 20, 9:24*am, cynic wrote:
On Dec 20, 2:38*am, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 19/12/2010 22:08, jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been
made about the opposition complaining that there's no
national road grit reserve. I'm just an electrician, and I
left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but do they
mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the
air and so "goes off" after a few weeks?

Anti-caking agents are added to allow gritting salt to be stockpiled for
long periods and salt mines can store stock underground, where the air
is very dry.

Colin Bignell

Just like it is in its unextracted and dense form?

Around the Lothians they have several stores,ranging from concrete
framed sheds to concrete igloos.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800 (PST), jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made about the
opposition complaining that there's no national road grit reserve.

Spin. There is *huge* amount of rock salt under Cheshire, demand may
out strip the abilty to extract, process and deliver but that isn't
quite the same. Is a central national reserve a sensible idea if the
roads are blocked? The rock salt needs to be in position at the
council depots before the weather closes in.

There may be an argument that the councils are not ensuring their
stocks of rock salt are suffcient to carry them through a normal
winter and to be honest this one (and last) is what I would call
"normal". Tt's just that for the last ten years or so we have had
mild/wet winters and the councils have become complacent.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Tim Streater wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800 (PST), jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made about
the opposition complaining that there's no national road grit reserve.
Spin. There is *huge* amount of rock salt under Cheshire, demand may
out strip the abilty to extract, process and deliver but that isn't
quite the same. Is a central national reserve a sensible idea if the
roads are blocked? The rock salt needs to be in position at the
council depots before the weather closes in.

Exactly.

There may be an argument that the councils are not ensuring their
stocks of rock salt are suffcient to carry them through a normal
winter and to be honest this one (and last) is what I would call
"normal". Tt's just that for the last ten years or so we have had
mild/wet winters and the councils have become complacent.

I'd say it's more the everyone has become complacent. What council in
the last ten years would not be pilloried if it was found to be "wasting
money" building huge "unnecessary" salt stockpiles?


It more that no one is used to doing anything off their own bat without
a month of risk assement evaluations and a hint from the Nanny state ..

I meann, how about a load of otherwise unemployed people and £15
shovels being given a reasonable days wage to get digging?


Anyone list to R4 this morning? The "Thought for the Day" chap was
gently chiding all those who appear to demand the weather they want,
when they want it, and are surprised that the world is not ordered to
suit them. Quite apt, I thought.

There was also a piece, yesterday IIRC, on Today saying that 90% of
drivers think they are better than average. So they all go out, block
the roads and then the gritters etc can't get through.


Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

But its bitterly cold.

There also seems to be an assumption that when 2ft of snow falls
anywhere else in the world, life continues as normal, whereas this is
not the case by any means.

Yup. Paris airports closed as well.

It really is exceptional conditions.


My advice? test the conditions, only drive if you are sure you can make
it, take sensible precautions, watch for outside pipes and be prepared
for bursts.

It isn't quite 1962-3 yet, and its earlier, but we spent three months
adapting to that one..lots of disruption, places completely cut off for
weeks on end. Heavy loss of livestock outside, or starving inside with
no feed.

Lots of people died from cold.

Just to make a point, my CH sytem was sized for -5C no one reckoned that
temps ever go much below that. W are seeing -8 at the moment. Worst I
have seen in England is -15 + windchill to -45. That's utterly brutal-
life threatening = we are not there yet, but its getting close.

In short, this is an Event. and as far as the last 50 years go, a really
bad and unusual one. You cannot expect things to be normal. What one
would have expected is that people adapt to it rather than moaning about
how someone should have Done Something.

In the 60s, our parents ahd lived through military service, the blitz
and intense privation post war with food rationing austerity and of
course a labour government that bankrupted the nation. A bit of -15C ad
two foot of snow was not the worst that could happen, by any means.

Just imagine if we still had Brown and Prescott..it could be worse, much
worse.

On 19 Dec,
Bob Eager wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800, jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made about the
opposition complaining that there's no national road grit reserve. I'm
just an electrician, and I left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but
do they mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the air and
so "goes off" after a few weeks? That's like wanting to have a national
cement reserve.

And of course, such a reserve would need space, planning permission,
infrastructure, etc. All set up since the election..

I thought the last lot set up a reserve after last winter's fiasco.

It's all down to national gibberment of all persuasions squeezing council
spending on their strategic reserves, as one ex PM said some years ago,
'selling the family silver'.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

On 20 Dec,
Tim Streater wrote:

There was also a piece, yesterday IIRC, on Today saying that 90% of
drivers think they are better than average. So they all go out, block
the roads and then the gritters etc can't get through.

At one time gritters were out in the night before the traffic built up. Now
(in my area at least) it seems to be a M-F 8-4 operation. Certainly very
little done on weekends.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

[dennis@home]

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


It isn't quite 1962-3 yet, and its earlier, but we spent three months
adapting to that one..lots of disruption, places completely cut off for
weeks on end. Heavy loss of livestock outside, or starving inside with no
feed.

I had little trouble driving to work then.
It took two days to dig through the snow drift outside my house to get to
the main road but once that was done it was OK.
Its OK out there now, but only because so many have decided to stay at home,
if they were out there getting stuck it would be grid lock, again!
I find it hard to imagine how many get stuck as I have never got stuck on
the roads and I never drive a 4x4.

[BartC]

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

It isn't quite 1962-3 yet, and its earlier, but we spent three months
adapting to that one..lots of disruption, places completely cut off for
weeks on end. Heavy loss of livestock outside, or starving inside with no
feed.

I had little trouble driving to work then.
It took two days to dig through the snow drift outside my house to get to
the main road but once that was done it was OK.
Its OK out there now, but only because so many have decided to stay at
home, if they were out there getting stuck it would be grid lock, again!
I find it hard to imagine how many get stuck as I have never got stuck on
the roads and I never drive a 4x4.

I find that traffic is the best way of keeping roads clear (that's why main
roads are much easier to drive on).

So we have to thank all those who ignored the advice to stay home, and
ventured out first..

--
Bartc

[Jules Richardson]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800, jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made about the
opposition complaining that there's no national road grit reserve. I'm
just an electrician, and I left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but
do they mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the air and
so "goes off" after a few weeks? That's like wanting to have a national
cement reserve.

Also a question of whether it's the "right type of grit" :-) I know over
here they add different chemicals in different regions according to
expected levels of ice and/or temperatures, and there isn't really a one
size fits all.

(I've wondered before if the UK could have some program that relied on
farmers or other folk with suitable equipment to receive compensation for
helping to keep the roads clear, but I suppose it'd be too open to abuse,
not to mention liability issues. It must be extremely expensive to
maintain a fleet of gritters / ploughs on standby though when you don't
even know if they'll be required)

cheers

Jules

[Bob Eager]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:13:31 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


It isn't quite 1962-3 yet, and its earlier, but we spent three months
adapting to that one..lots of disruption, places completely cut off for
weeks on end. Heavy loss of livestock outside, or starving inside with
no feed.

I had little trouble driving to work then. It took two days to dig
through the snow drift outside my house to get to the main road but once
that was done it was OK. Its OK out there now, but only because so many
have decided to stay at home, if they were out there getting stuck it
would be grid lock, again! I find it hard to imagine how many get stuck
as I have never got stuck on the roads and I never drive a 4x4.

Yes, yes, Dennis. We know you're perfect. There, there.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Jules Richardson wrote:
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800, jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made about the
opposition complaining that there's no national road grit reserve. I'm
just an electrician, and I left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but
do they mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the air and
so "goes off" after a few weeks? That's like wanting to have a national
cement reserve.

Also a question of whether it's the "right type of grit" :-) I know over
here they add different chemicals in different regions according to
expected levels of ice and/or temperatures, and there isn't really a one
size fits all.

(I've wondered before if the UK could have some program that relied on
farmers or other folk with suitable equipment to receive compensation for
helping to keep the roads clear, but I suppose it'd be too open to abuse,
not to mention liability issues. It must be extremely expensive to
maintain a fleet of gritters / ploughs on standby though when you don't
even know if they'll be required)


farmers are subcontracted but pettifogging regulation make it hard.

Round here, they tend to just do it anyway. Ive been involved in
chainsawing up tree branches across the road and clearing blocked road
drains. No one asked me. I just did it.


Wife just phoned to say 'road blocked, fire engine and crane trying to
lift horse with broken leg out of frozen pond: been running around
telling people the road is blocked. Off to do shopping by different road'

Oh iots a merry game.

Right, bread should have risen, time for some man on oven action..


cheers

Jules

[chris French]

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Tim Streater wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800 (PST), jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made
about
the opposition complaining that there's no national road grit
reserve.
Spin. There is *huge* amount of rock salt under Cheshire, demand may
out strip the abilty to extract, process and deliver but that isn't
quite the same. Is a central national reserve a sensible idea if the
roads are blocked? The rock salt needs to be in position at the
council depots before the weather closes in.
Exactly.

There may be an argument that the councils are not ensuring their
stocks of rock salt are suffcient to carry them through a normal
winter and to be honest this one (and last) is what I would call
"normal". Tt's just that for the last ten years or so we have had
mild/wet winters and the councils have become complacent.
I'd say it's more the everyone has become complacent. What council
in the last ten years would not be pilloried if it was found to be
"wasting money" building huge "unnecessary" salt stockpiles?


It more that no one is used to doing anything off their own bat without
a month of risk assement evaluations and a hint from the Nanny state ..

I meann, how about a load of otherwise unemployed people and £15
shovels being given a reasonable days wage to get digging?


Anyone list to R4 this morning? The "Thought for the Day" chap was
gently chiding all those who appear to demand the weather they want,
when they want it, and are surprised that the world is not ordered to
suit them. Quite apt, I thought.
There was also a piece, yesterday IIRC, on Today saying that 90% of
drivers think they are better than average. So they all go out, block
the roads and then the gritters etc can't get through.


Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

But its bitterly cold.


In this bit of EA we have about 1-2cm :-), but yes cold. We do seem to
be ina bit of a 'snow hole' here, it's the second winter where there
has been lots of snow else where, and everywhere else seems to have had
more than us. :-)


Out of interest, me and the eldest daughter (9) were pondering in the
car today about hoar frost all over the grass, trees etc. which we had
today. We were wondering about the conditions required to produce it. It
must be more than just temp related as I'm sure it wasn't any colder
last night that it has been on other nights when it hasn't occured.
--
Chris French

[tony sayer]

In article , dennis@home
scribeth thus


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


It isn't quite 1962-3 yet, and its earlier, but we spent three months
adapting to that one..lots of disruption, places completely cut off for
weeks on end. Heavy loss of livestock outside, or starving inside with no
feed.

I had little trouble driving to work then.
It took two days to dig through the snow drift outside my house to get to
the main road but once that was done it was OK.
Its OK out there now, but only because so many have decided to stay at home,
if they were out there getting stuck it would be grid lock, again!
I find it hard to imagine how many get stuck as I have never got stuck on
the roads and I never drive a 4x4.



Seem to remember getting to school .. that was open every day even if
the heating packed up which meant keep yer coats on and run on the spot
if you were cold..

Course there was a differing service ethic then...
--
Tony Sayer

[Mike Humphrey]

jgharston wrote:
Listening to the news today multiple references have been
made about the opposition complaining that there's no
national road grit reserve. I'm just an electrician, and I
left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but do they
mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the
air and so "goes off" after a few weeks? That's like
wanting to have a national cement reserve.

There is a "national road grit reserve" of sorts - it's located in New
Road, WInsford, Cheshire, outside the Salt Union mine. There's some
pictures in this article -
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...salt-mine.html
- although you can't really see the scale of it from them. I can't seem
to find a better picture. The stockpiles are known locally as the
"Winsford Alps".
But how do you get it to where you want it when the roads are blocked by
snow?

Mike

[Jules Richardson]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:51:25 -0600, Mike Humphrey wrote:
But how do you get it to where you want it when the roads are blocked by
snow?

We get days out here where the only things moving are snowmobiles - most
of the roads have big ditches which serve as designated snowmobile
trails.

Maybe that's the answer. Or rail. Or giant trebuchet. ;-)

[Andy Champ[_2_]]

On 20/12/2010 12:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

"Only"? Sure you don't mean mm? 40cm will stop most vehicles; the
ground clearance on a discovery is only 24cm, and I suspect it would
struggle with 40cm, even with 4wd and proper tyres.

Unless of course rolled flat, which can happen with the right traffic.
In which case depth is immaterial.

Andy

[Tim Watts]

On 20/12/10 19:28, tony sayer wrote:

Course there was a differing


service

You said a naughty word.... Can't have that.




ethic then...


--
Tim Watts

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:37:02 +0000, chris French wrote:

Out of interest, me and the eldest daughter (9) were pondering in the
car today about hoar frost all over the grass, trees etc. which we had
today. We were wondering about the conditions required to produce it.

Was it foggy last night? Freezing fog will encase things in thick
layer of hoar frost:

http://www.howhill.com/weather/images/winter/

Scroll down to below the TV camera ones for rather large examples
taken on Hartside.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:00:15 -0000, BartC wrote:

I find that traffic is the best way of keeping roads clear (that's why
main roads are much easier to drive on).

You need traffic to mix the salt but many places are so near capacity
under normal conditions if everything has to slow down to sub 30mph
it just stops. Once it' has stopped the gritters can't get out
either, bit of a Catch 22.

Think what happens if there is a prang on a busy road during the rush
hour under good weather conditions. Have poor conditions, drivers
that think the way to drive on snow is to have as many wheels
spinning as possible and lots of small "incidents" it's no wonder it
ends up in grid lock.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:36:42 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson wrote:

Also a question of whether it's the "right type of grit" :-) I know over
here they add different chemicals in different regions according to
expected levels of ice and/or temperatures, and there isn't really a one
size fits all.

Well I guess different chemicals are needed in your part of the world
as it gets below 0F... That very rarely happens here so most of the
time good 'ole salt is enough. They do adjust how much they lay down
depending on the expected conditions.

(I've wondered before if the UK could have some program that relied on
farmers or other folk with suitable equipment to receive compensation
for helping to keep the roads clear, but I suppose it'd be too open to
abuse, not to mention liability issues.

Around here there are at least two "farmers" who have plough and grit
attachments for their tractors and are subcontracted by the council,
but is after lessons learnt last winter. The snow blower is also
privately owned.

There are also numerous ancient JCBs, particulary at places with long
private drives/tracks, but I expect they are all SORN'd so not
allowed on the public highway and probably fuelled by red diesel so
another hurdle to jump through for road use.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:10:13 GMT, wrote:

Now (in my area at least) it seems to be a M-F 8-4 operation. Certainly
very little done on weekends.

24/7 operation available here. Mind you they have to if it starts to
drift in any sort of meaningful manner otherwise it'll build up so
the ploughs can't get through, even with the pointy plough rather
than the shove to the side type.

When it's drifting badly they just keep driving around and around
trying to keep some semblance of a route open. They'll come past us
about every hour but by the time they are due to pass again you'd
hardly be able to tell they had been through just an hour before as
the previous track would be filled back in. We are talking 2' or more
depths as well.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:30 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

"Only"? Sure you don't mean mm?

40 mm is just a heavy frost. B-) Shouldn't stop any vehicle, that
has decent "all season" tyres. Slow 'em down certainly as stopping
distances will be some what longer but not stop.

40cm will stop most vehicles; the ground clearance on a discovery is
only 24cm, and I suspect it would struggle with 40cm, even with 4wd and
proper tyres.

A lot depends on the snow. I flumphed through several drifts around
100cm the other day but that was fresh, dry powder, very light and
flows almost like water.

Conversely I have been stopped by just an inch or so of firm snow on
the central hump catching the bottom of the front valance. That is
higher than the bottom of the diff housings which is what the quoted
ground clearance measures to. The diffs can be can be pushed through
snow but not rocks... Disco II (permenant 4WD) with winter tyres.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsort...et-72157623194
502480/

Has float over explanatory notes.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 20 Dec,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:10:13 GMT, wrote:

Now (in my area at least) it seems to be a M-F 8-4 operation. Certainly
very little done on weekends.

24/7 operation available here. Mind you they have to if it starts to
drift in any sort of meaningful manner otherwise it'll build up so
the ploughs can't get through, even with the pointy plough rather
than the shove to the side type.

When it's drifting badly they just keep driving around and around
trying to keep some semblance of a route open. They'll come past us
about every hour but by the time they are due to pass again you'd
hardly be able to tell they had been through just an hour before as
the previous track would be filled back in. We are talking 2' or more
depths as well.

Yes, I know your area well from the 70s when your TV relay started. The local
council is an urban area so they think. Next door in N yorks they do actually
plough the roads. locally they only seem to grit most of the time, even with
plough equipped lorries, despite having some rural black (or is it white)
spots.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

On 20 Dec,
Jules Richardson wrote:

(I've wondered before if the UK could have some program that relied on
farmers or other folk with suitable equipment to receive compensation for
helping to keep the roads clear, but I suppose it'd be too open to abuse,
not to mention liability issues.

A lot of areas (used to) do that. government constraints on local councuilss
and several warm winters have caused them to reduce the contracts with
farmers. Often they did more than was required, which also helped their milk
tankers get through.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

[Jules Richardson]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 00:00:39 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:
40cm will stop most vehicles; the ground clearance on a discovery is
only 24cm, and I suspect it would struggle with 40cm, even with 4wd and
proper tyres.

A lot depends on the snow. I flumphed through several drifts around
100cm the other day but that was fresh, dry powder, very light and flows
almost like water.

I can do 30cm of heavy stuff with the car and snow tyres *just* - but
it's a lot of back-and-forth to try and compact the snow and drive over
the top of it as much as possible, rather than driving through it. I've
only bothered for the sakes of getting the car from one end of the
driveway to the other when it's like that, and I'm not sure I'd fancy
chances with 40cm at all :-)

cheers

Jules

[nightjar]

On 20/12/2010 09:24, cynic wrote:
On Dec 20, 2:38 am, "Nightjar\"cpb\"@""insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 19/12/2010 22:08, jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been
made about the opposition complaining that there's no
national road grit reserve. I'm just an electrician, and I
left chemistry behind some 20 years ago, but do they
mean grit salt? ie, stuff that absorbs moisture from the
air and so "goes off" after a few weeks?

Anti-caking agents are added to allow gritting salt to be stockpiled for
long periods and salt mines can store stock underground, where the air
is very dry.

Colin Bignell

Just like it is in its unextracted and dense form?

There is that, of course, but with over 170 miles of tunnels, the main
supplier does have a fair bit of room to store mined and graded salt in
ideal conditions.

Colin Bignell

[Mark[_30_]]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:40:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:08:41 -0800 (PST), jgharston wrote:

Listening to the news today multiple references have been made about
the opposition complaining that there's no national road grit reserve.
Spin. There is *huge* amount of rock salt under Cheshire, demand may
out strip the abilty to extract, process and deliver but that isn't
quite the same. Is a central national reserve a sensible idea if the
roads are blocked? The rock salt needs to be in position at the
council depots before the weather closes in.

Exactly.

There may be an argument that the councils are not ensuring their
stocks of rock salt are suffcient to carry them through a normal
winter and to be honest this one (and last) is what I would call
"normal". Tt's just that for the last ten years or so we have had
mild/wet winters and the councils have become complacent.

I'd say it's more the everyone has become complacent. What council in
the last ten years would not be pilloried if it was found to be "wasting
money" building huge "unnecessary" salt stockpiles?


It more that no one is used to doing anything off their own bat without
a month of risk assement evaluations and a hint from the Nanny state ..

I meann, how about a load of otherwise unemployed people and £15
shovels being given a reasonable days wage to get digging?

Then they wouldn't be unemployed. But I agree with the idea.

Anyone list to R4 this morning? The "Thought for the Day" chap was
gently chiding all those who appear to demand the weather they want,
when they want it, and are surprised that the world is not ordered to
suit them. Quite apt, I thought.

There was also a piece, yesterday IIRC, on Today saying that 90% of
drivers think they are better than average. So they all go out, block
the roads and then the gritters etc can't get through.

Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

But you don't have any hills there? I guess we have had about the
same amount of snow but many roads are impassable, even by 4x4s.

The fact that they haven't gritted most of the roads is also a factor.

But its bitterly cold.

Same here.

There also seems to be an assumption that when 2ft of snow falls
anywhere else in the world, life continues as normal, whereas this is
not the case by any means.

Yup. Paris airports closed as well.

It really is exceptional conditions.


My advice? test the conditions, only drive if you are sure you can make
it, take sensible precautions, watch for outside pipes and be prepared
for bursts.

It isn't quite 1962-3 yet, and its earlier, but we spent three months
adapting to that one..lots of disruption, places completely cut off for
weeks on end. Heavy loss of livestock outside, or starving inside with
no feed.

Lots of people died from cold.

Just to make a point, my CH sytem was sized for -5C no one reckoned that
temps ever go much below that. W are seeing -8 at the moment. Worst I
have seen in England is -15 + windchill to -45. That's utterly brutal-
life threatening = we are not there yet, but its getting close.

In short, this is an Event. and as far as the last 50 years go, a really
bad and unusual one. You cannot expect things to be normal. What one
would have expected is that people adapt to it rather than moaning about
how someone should have Done Something.

In the 60s, our parents ahd lived through military service, the blitz
and intense privation post war with food rationing austerity and of
course a labour government that bankrupted the nation. A bit of -15C ad
two foot of snow was not the worst that could happen, by any means.

Just imagine if we still had Brown and Prescott..it could be worse, much
worse.

Don't worry the Eton twins are well on their way to make it much
worse.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

[Mark[_30_]]

On 20 Dec 2010 16:40:04 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2010-12-20, Jules Richardson wrote:

(I've wondered before if the UK could have some program that relied on
farmers or other folk with suitable equipment to receive compensation for
helping to keep the roads clear, but I suppose it'd be too open to abuse,
not to mention liability issues.

Yep. There was a farmer on the TV here a couple of days ago saying that
by the time he'd complied with the Health and Safety, liability
insurance and taxation (HMRC won't let them use agricultural diesel for
road clearing) requirements, it wasn't worth the hassle.

I wonder why he takes any notice of these regulations. There's no
Police in the country anyway.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

[The Other Mike[_3_]]

On 20 Dec 2010 16:40:04 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2010-12-20, Jules Richardson wrote:

(I've wondered before if the UK could have some program that relied on
farmers or other folk with suitable equipment to receive compensation for
helping to keep the roads clear, but I suppose it'd be too open to abuse,
not to mention liability issues.

Yep. There was a farmer on the TV here a couple of days ago saying that
by the time he'd complied with the Health and Safety, liability
insurance and taxation (HMRC won't let them use agricultural diesel for
road clearing) requirements, it wasn't worth the hassle.

HMRC *will* let them use red diesel for snow clearing (not gritting if
the gritter isn't a permanant part of the vehicle)

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...164#P229_22322



--

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Andy Champ wrote:
On 20/12/2010 12:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

"Only"? Sure you don't mean mm?


My mistake. Yes. less than 2"

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

wrote:
On 20 Dec,
Jules Richardson wrote:

(I've wondered before if the UK could have some program that relied on
farmers or other folk with suitable equipment to receive compensation for
helping to keep the roads clear, but I suppose it'd be too open to abuse,
not to mention liability issues.

A lot of areas (used to) do that. government constraints on local councuilss
and several warm winters have caused them to reduce the contracts with
farmers. Often they did more than was required, which also helped their milk
tankers get through.

If you ant milk, its YOUR milk tanker as well.

[Andy Dingley]

On Dec 21, 1:10*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
On 20/12/2010 12:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

"Only"? *Sure you don't mean mm? *

My mistake. Yes. less than 2"

Still a real problem when you're trying to bring the ant herd in for
milking.

[Jules Richardson]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:21:39 -0800, Andy Dingley wrote:
Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care. Only 20-40cm of
snow.

"Only"? Â*Sure you don't mean mm?

My mistake. Yes. less than 2"

Still a real problem when you're trying to bring the ant herd in for
milking.

At least you can find them by listening for the little ant bells that
they wear around their necks.

[Frank Erskine]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:10:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:
On 20/12/2010 12:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care.
Only 20-40cm of snow.

"Only"? Sure you don't mean mm?


My mistake. Yes. less than 2"

Whatever's happened to the good old inch? Weather people never ever
refer to it nowadays, even though It's a much more practical unit for
snow depth.

Beside, cm aren't SI units and are to be deprecated.

--
Frank Erskine

[Jules Richardson]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:12:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If you ant milk, its YOUR milk tanker as well.

elk tanker!

[Bob Eager]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:52:26 +0000, Frank Erskine wrote:

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:10:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:
On 20/12/2010 12:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Roads round here (East Anglia) are usable with care. Only 20-40cm of
snow.

"Only"? Sure you don't mean mm?


My mistake. Yes. less than 2"

Whatever's happened to the good old inch? Weather people never ever
refer to it nowadays, even though It's a much more practical unit for
snow depth.

Beside, cm aren't SI units and are to be deprecated.

We should use nanoparsecs... 30mm or so.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor