Boiler - water from the flue
 

I posted about this a while ago, and the plumber came round and
diagnosed a faulty flue shroud. Water was coming out of the flue and
forming a pond underneath. The shroud has now been redesigned with a
'bubble' to force water/steam back down the flue. I still don't follow
how that volume of water could follow such a convoluted route (1m
vertical, 3m horizontal), but still.

Just been outside and seen this:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers
amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this, but
any opinions welcome.

Rob

Boiler - water from the flue
 

Rob expressed precisely :
Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers amount
of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this, but any
opinions welcome.

My guess would be that all of that water is simply the condensate and
that ice has managed to form in the pipe which has simply pushed the O
ring seal out of the pipe - it is not a flue pipe, it is a condensate
drain pipe. Condensate drains are causing lots of problems due to icing
up in this cold spell.

The length of condensate pipe does seem to be excessive, and it looks
as if it goes up from the point where it emerges from the wall. In
which case the condensate water would need to fill the pipe to be able
to flow down - that cannot be right, is the photo upside down?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Boiler - water from the flue
 

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message . uk...
Rob expressed precisely :
Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know
about this, but any opinions welcome.

My guess would be that all of that water is simply the condensate and that ice has managed to form in the pipe which has simply
pushed the O ring seal out of the pipe - it is not a flue pipe, it is a condensate drain pipe. Condensate drains are causing lots
of problems due to icing up in this cold spell.

The length of condensate pipe does seem to be excessive, and it looks as if it goes up from the point where it emerges from the
wall. In which case the condensate water would need to fill the pipe to be able to flow down - that cannot be right, is the photo
upside down?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

I'd say yes, and no.
No in the sense that the picture shows exactly what the OP saw leaning out
of the window above the pipe with his camera.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Boiler - water from the flue
 

Rob wrote in news:4d123d29$0$5124$c3e8da3
:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

The pipe in the picture is not the flue but a flue management kit attached
to the flue outlet.

At four metres long the water vapour that would be released to the air is
condensing in the pipe and running back and leaking from the faulty joint.

Your description leads me to suspect that the boiler manufactures kit has
not been used but made up from plastic waste/drain fittings.

A flue or flue parts should not be modified without consulting the
manufactures as this could lead to the boiler being in a dangerous
condition.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Boiler - water from the flue
 

In article m,
Rob writes:
I posted about this a while ago, and the plumber came round and
diagnosed a faulty flue shroud. Water was coming out of the flue and
forming a pond underneath. The shroud has now been redesigned with a
'bubble' to force water/steam back down the flue. I still don't follow
how that volume of water could follow such a convoluted route (1m
vertical, 3m horizontal), but still.

Just been outside and seen this:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers
amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this, but
any opinions welcome.

Such a volume is expected from a condensing boiler.

I had a leak in my Keston when I first fitted it. It turned out to
be a faulty flue spiggot and nothing to do with any of my joints,
but I repaired it nevertheless rather than waiting days for another
part. The condensate is corrosive, and to be sure there were no more
leaks, I left the hosepipe trickling into the end of the flue for
20 minutes or so, and checked the water wasn't going anywhere (other
than down the condensate drain). I don't know if that's a safe or
harmless test for your boiler, but it was effective with mine, and
if it had been included in the commissioning instructions, it would
have shown up the leak before it had a chance to corrode anything.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On 22/12/2010 18:41, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Rob expressed precisely :
Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers
amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this,
but any opinions welcome.

My guess would be that all of that water is simply the condensate and
that ice has managed to form in the pipe which has simply pushed the O
ring seal out of the pipe - it is not a flue pipe, it is a condensate
drain pipe. Condensate drains are causing lots of problems due to icing
up in this cold spell.


Yes, I think the water is condensate. There was visible wetness at the
point shown by the arrow. I defer to your knowledge about what that pipe
is called, but it does make me wonder where waste gas goes.

The length of condensate pipe does seem to be excessive, and it looks as
if it goes up from the point where it emerges from the wall. In which
case the condensate water would need to fill the pipe to be able to flow
down - that cannot be right, is the photo upside down?


No, the first photo is me looking up at what I thought was a flue
(extension kit). The second photo is me looking down, at what I've
identified (incorrectly) as the condensate pipe. I wonder what that
diagonal pipe is then?! The picture at the bottom is that (what I
thought was a condensate) pipe continuing on its path and out to a drain.

Curious! I wonder why he installed all of those pipes! And where's the
flue!!

Thanks - the plumber's coming round later today - I'll report back.

Rob

Boiler - water from the flue
 

Rob wrote:

where's the flue!!

That'll be the one with the plume of water vapour streaming out of it
when the boiler is running ...

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On 23/12/2010 08:53, Andy Burns wrote:
Rob wrote:

where's the flue!!

That'll be the one with the plume of water vapour streaming out of it
when the boiler is running ...

Mmm - a few have identified that pipe as the condensate pipe. Plot
thickens, I'll ask the plumber when he comes round.

Rob

Boiler - water from the flue
 

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article m,
Rob writes:
I posted about this a while ago, and the plumber came round and
diagnosed a faulty flue shroud. Water was coming out of the flue and
forming a pond underneath. The shroud has now been redesigned with a
'bubble' to force water/steam back down the flue. I still don't follow
how that volume of water could follow such a convoluted route (1m
vertical, 3m horizontal), but still.

Just been outside and seen this:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers
amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this, but
any opinions welcome.

Such a volume is expected from a condensing boiler.

I had a leak in my Keston when I first fitted it. It turned out to
be a faulty flue spiggot and nothing to do with any of my joints,
but I repaired it nevertheless rather than waiting days for another
part. The condensate is corrosive, and to be sure there were no more
leaks, I left the hosepipe trickling into the end of the flue for
20 minutes or so, and checked the water wasn't going anywhere (other
than down the condensate drain). I don't know if that's a safe or
harmless test for your boiler, but it was effective with mine, and
if it had been included in the commissioning instructions, it would
have shown up the leak before it had a chance to corrode anything.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]




Not a straight forward flue - but a "Plume Management" kit or bodge. (IMHO)

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On Dec 22, 6:02*pm, Rob wrote:
I posted about this a while ago, and the plumber came round and
diagnosed a faulty flue shroud. Water was coming out of the flue and
forming a pond underneath. The shroud has now been redesigned with a
'bubble' to force water/steam back down the flue. I still don't follow
how that volume of water could follow such a convoluted route (1m
vertical, 3m horizontal), but still.

Just been outside and seen this:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers
amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this, but
any opinions welcome.

Rob

The flue through the wall in picture 1 appears to be an Ideal fan flue
version to which someone has added a section of pushfit waste pipe to
extend the flue gas discharge point to where the plume will not create
a mess. I have just googled for ideal plume management kit without
success so there is a distinct possibility that your installer has
invented his own version.

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.

IF it is a manufacturers kit the pipe should run up hill all the way
from boiler to atmosphere and the joints should not leak.
If this pipe is not an ideal product then you need to be contacting
trading standards and gas-safe as only approved flue designs should be
used with any boiler.

The diagonal pipe is quite likely to be the condensate pipe but may
need lagging.

The rabid enthusiasm for installing condensing boilers seems to be
coming unstuck in our present winter conditions when the boilers heat
is most needed.

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On Dec 22, 9:30*pm, Heliotrope Smith wrote:
Rob wrote in news:4d123d29$0$5124$c3e8da3
:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

The pipe in the picture is not the flue but a flue management kit attached
to the flue outlet.

At four metres long the water vapour that would be released to the air is
condensing in the pipe and running back and leaking from the faulty joint..

Your description leads me to suspect that the boiler manufactures kit has
not been used but made up from plastic waste/drain fittings.


You see this kind of thing a lot: a balanced flue has had the (inner)
outlet pipe extended to vent flue gases at some distance from the
inlet. Surely the purpose of a balanced flue is that the outlet and
inlet are close together so that local pressure variations affect both
the same way.

Do manufacturers really make kits to separate two?

Robert

Boiler - water from the flue
 

"RobertL" wrote in message
...

You see this kind of thing a lot: a balanced flue has had the (inner)
outlet pipe extended to vent flue gases at some distance from the
inlet. Surely the purpose of a balanced flue is that the outlet and
inlet are close together so that local pressure variations affect both
the same way.


It isn't a balanced flu.
It is a fanned flu.


Do manufacturers really make kits to separate two?

They do for fanned flus.

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On 23/12/2010 10:40, cynic wrote:
On Dec 22, 6:02 pm, wrote:
I posted about this a while ago, and the plumber came round and
diagnosed a faulty flue shroud. Water was coming out of the flue and
forming a pond underneath. The shroud has now been redesigned with a
'bubble' to force water/steam back down the flue. I still don't follow
how that volume of water could follow such a convoluted route (1m
vertical, 3m horizontal), but still.

Just been outside and seen this:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers
amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this, but
any opinions welcome.

Rob

The flue through the wall in picture 1 appears to be an Ideal fan flue
version to which someone has added a section of pushfit waste pipe to
extend the flue gas discharge point to where the plume will not create
a mess. I have just googled for ideal plume management kit without
success so there is a distinct possibility that your installer has
invented his own version.


I think you're right. He's just been back and said something about
sections of pipe being too short, and he's just (this minute) replaced
it, along with the shroud at the flue exit.

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.


I take your point, but frankly I don't want to drop him in it. and he
does *seem* to know what he's talking about.

IF it is a manufacturers kit the pipe should run up hill all the way
from boiler to atmosphere and the joints should not leak.
If this pipe is not an ideal product then you need to be contacting
trading standards and gas-safe as only approved flue designs should be
used with any boiler.


Mmmm. Again, see where you're going. If I have more bother I will ask
him directly what it is he's fitted/I've paid for, and whether it is
compliant.

The diagonal pipe is quite likely to be the condensate pipe but may
need lagging.


Yes, it is the condensate pipe, and it has a suspiciously horizontal 2m
run. We have both stood and looked at it, and agreed today that it could
be a problem. But it appears unrelated to the current issue.

The rabid enthusiasm for installing condensing boilers seems to be
coming unstuck in our present winter conditions when the boilers heat
is most needed.

These things ought to be working properly in -20, never mind -5.

Thanks for your insights.

rob

Boiler - water from the flue
 

In article ,
cynic writes:
The rabid enthusiasm for installing condensing boilers seems to be
coming unstuck in our present winter conditions when the boilers heat
is most needed.

There seem to be a significant proportion of gas installers who,
although properly registered, actually haven't got the faintest
idea how a modern boiler works, and can't even follow the most
basic step-by-step installation instructions which all boilers
seem to come with (presumably because the manufacturers know a
lot of the installers are clueless).

No disrespect to the installers here, BTW.

The OP might want to sit down with the installation instructions
(which by law, the installer must have left with him), and just
check through how compliant the installation is, just based on
the things you can see without opening up anything.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On Dec 23, 3:34 pm, Rob wrote:

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.

I take your point, but frankly I don't want to drop him in it.

That's an interesting sense of loyalty you've got there - if what he's
fitted is indeed an unauthorised DIY bodge one can only assume he's
probably doing this on other installs too. What if one of these bodges
leads to a situation whereby another owner ends up dying from CO
poisoning due to failure of the flue to vent?

These things ought to be working properly in -20, never mind -5.

They do, but only if installed properly with due consideration for the
effects of persistently-low temperatures.

Mathew

Boiler - water from the flue
 

"Rob" wrote in message
b.com...
On 23/12/2010 10:40, cynic wrote:
On Dec 22, 6:02 pm, wrote:
I posted about this a while ago, and the plumber came round and
diagnosed a faulty flue shroud. Water was coming out of the flue and
forming a pond underneath. The shroud has now been redesigned with a
'bubble' to force water/steam back down the flue. I still don't follow
how that volume of water could follow such a convoluted route (1m
vertical, 3m horizontal), but still.

Just been outside and seen this:

http://www.ifyoucan.org.uk/pages/Boiler.html

Obviously (?) the flue joint has failed, but this seems like a bonkers
amount of water to be ejected? I'll let the plumber know about this, but
any opinions welcome.

Rob

The flue through the wall in picture 1 appears to be an Ideal fan flue
version to which someone has added a section of pushfit waste pipe to
extend the flue gas discharge point to where the plume will not create
a mess. I have just googled for ideal plume management kit without
success so there is a distinct possibility that your installer has
invented his own version.


I think you're right. He's just been back and said something about
sections of pipe being too short, and he's just (this minute) replaced it,
along with the shroud at the flue exit.

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.


I take your point, but frankly I don't want to drop him in it. and he does
*seem* to know what he's talking about.

IF it is a manufacturers kit the pipe should run up hill all the way
from boiler to atmosphere and the joints should not leak.
If this pipe is not an ideal product then you need to be contacting
trading standards and gas-safe as only approved flue designs should be
used with any boiler.


Mmmm. Again, see where you're going. If I have more bother I will ask him
directly what it is he's fitted/I've paid for, and whether it is
compliant.

The diagonal pipe is quite likely to be the condensate pipe but may
need lagging.


Yes, it is the condensate pipe, and it has a suspiciously horizontal 2m
run. We have both stood and looked at it, and agreed today that it could
be a problem. But it appears unrelated to the current issue.

The rabid enthusiasm for installing condensing boilers seems to be
coming unstuck in our present winter conditions when the boilers heat
is most needed.

These things ought to be working properly in -20, never mind -5.

Thanks for your insights.

rob


If the condensate pipe is frozen then won't the flue pipe get waterlogged?

Boiler - water from the flue
 

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article
,
cynic writes:
The rabid enthusiasm for installing condensing boilers seems to be
coming unstuck in our present winter conditions when the boilers heat
is most needed.

There seem to be a significant proportion of gas installers who,
although properly registered, actually haven't got the faintest
idea how a modern boiler works, and can't even follow the most
basic step-by-step installation instructions which all boilers
seem to come with (presumably because the manufacturers know a
lot of the installers are clueless).

No disrespect to the installers here, BTW.

The OP might want to sit down with the installation instructions
(which by law, the installer must have left with him), and just
check through how compliant the installation is, just based on
the things you can see without opening up anything.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


Good tip Andrew. When mine was fitted I was glad I had downloaded a set of
instructions so that I could anticipate was and wasn't possible.

It was just as well I had read the instructions for the RF Thermostat - to
get it tuned to the receiver. (We nearly came to blows!)

Some plumbers are good pipe fitters - a few are good boiler technicians (but
different aptitudes are required IMHO)

Boiler - water from the flue
 

In article
,
Mathew Newton writes
On Dec 23, 3:34 pm, Rob wrote:

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.

I take your point, but frankly I don't want to drop him in it.

That's an interesting sense of loyalty you've got there - if what he's
fitted is indeed an unauthorised DIY bodge one can only assume he's
probably doing this on other installs too. What if one of these bodges
leads to a situation whereby another owner ends up dying from CO
poisoning due to failure of the flue to vent?

Not that I approve but the alternative to going along with it may be a
condemned installation and immediate disconnection. The installation
appears to be in a covered walkway and if it is, I can't see it meeting
the regs.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On Dec 23, 7:56*pm, fred wrote:
In article
,
Mathew Newton writesOn Dec 23, 3:34 pm, Rob wrote:

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.

I take your point, but frankly I don't want to drop him in it.

That's an interesting sense of loyalty you've got there - if what he's
fitted is indeed an unauthorised DIY bodge one can only assume he's
probably doing this on other installs too. What if one of these bodges
leads to a situation whereby another owner ends up dying from CO
poisoning due to failure of the flue to vent?

Not that I approve but the alternative to going along with it may be a
condemned installation and immediate disconnection. The installation
appears to be in a covered walkway and if it is, I can't see it meeting
the regs.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

CORGI were getting very uptight about flues discharging under covered
walkways prior to their demise and the creation of the gas-safe
register. Why did this installer not use a different flue
configuration?

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 02:47:50 -0800 (PST) RobertL wrote :
You see this kind of thing a lot: a balanced flue has had the (inner)
outlet pipe extended to vent flue gases at some distance from the
inlet. Surely the purpose of a balanced flue is that the outlet and
inlet are close together so that local pressure variations affect
both the same way.

Do manufacturers really make kits to separate two?

Yes, Glow-worm do, and Keston boilers have separate inlet and outlet pipes
which can be in different locations (though not opposite sides of the
building)

http://www.glow-worm.co.uk/products/...anagement-kit/

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

Boiler - water from the flue
 

In article , Tony Bryer
writes
On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 02:47:50 -0800 (PST) RobertL wrote :
You see this kind of thing a lot: a balanced flue has had the (inner)
outlet pipe extended to vent flue gases at some distance from the
inlet. Surely the purpose of a balanced flue is that the outlet and
inlet are close together so that local pressure variations affect
both the same way.

Do manufacturers really make kits to separate two?

Yes, Glow-worm do, and Keston boilers have separate inlet and outlet pipes
which can be in different locations (though not opposite sides of the
building)

http://www.glow-worm.co.uk/products/...anagement-kit/

Which, to be fair, looks like a white version of the drainpipe boogie on
the o/p's flue outlet.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On 23/12/2010 16:38, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In ,
writes:
The rabid enthusiasm for installing condensing boilers seems to be
coming unstuck in our present winter conditions when the boilers heat
is most needed.

There seem to be a significant proportion of gas installers who,
although properly registered, actually haven't got the faintest
idea how a modern boiler works, and can't even follow the most
basic step-by-step installation instructions which all boilers
seem to come with (presumably because the manufacturers know a
lot of the installers are clueless).

No disrespect to the installers here, BTW.

The OP might want to sit down with the installation instructions
(which by law, the installer must have left with him), and just
check through how compliant the installation is, just based on
the things you can see without opening up anything.


Yes, that's a good point, will do.

Rob

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On 23/12/2010 16:45, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Dec 23, 3:34 pm, wrote:

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.

I take your point, but frankly I don't want to drop him in it.

That's an interesting sense of loyalty you've got there - if what he's
fitted is indeed an unauthorised DIY bodge one can only assume he's
probably doing this on other installs too. What if one of these bodges
leads to a situation whereby another owner ends up dying from CO
poisoning due to failure of the flue to vent?


Yes - 'if'. I'll check the paperwork, see what I've paid for, see
what's fitted, and see what Ideal recommend.


These things ought to be working properly in -20, never mind -5.

They do, but only if installed properly with due consideration for the
effects of persistently-low temperatures.


Indeed.

Boiler - water from the flue
 

On 23/12/2010 20:51, cynic wrote:
On Dec 23, 7:56 pm, wrote:
In article
,
Mathew writesOn Dec 23, 3:34 pm, wrote:

I would telephone Ideal Boilers in Hull for a definitive answer as to
the authenticity of the kit you have fitted to your boiler.

I take your point, but frankly I don't want to drop him in it.

That's an interesting sense of loyalty you've got there - if what he's
fitted is indeed an unauthorised DIY bodge one can only assume he's
probably doing this on other installs too. What if one of these bodges
leads to a situation whereby another owner ends up dying from CO
poisoning due to failure of the flue to vent?

Not that I approve but the alternative to going along with it may be a
condemned installation and immediate disconnection. The installation
appears to be in a covered walkway and if it is, I can't see it meeting
the regs.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

CORGI were getting very uptight about flues discharging under covered
walkways prior to their demise and the creation of the gas-safe
register. Why did this installer not use a different flue
configuration?

It doesn't discharge under the walkway - the pipe takes it to the
external wall, then up and out.

Rob