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Default Rust treatment

I have some steel car bodywork that's rusty and wants treatment - mostly
exterior edges of wheel arches. I think the metal is good underneath, so
it's just surface rust.

On another car I treated this sort of thing by scraping off the surface
rust, treating with Jenolite, then two coats of Hammerite, then spray
colour. But the rust continued to spread. In that case I can't be sure the
rust wasn't just coming through from the other side, so nothing would stop
it.

I've been sanding off the rust with sandpaper and a sanding block, and some
good metal is coming up, but it's quite pitted and will take an age to sand
off all the good metal to make a flat good surface.

I've been thinking of using a wire brush in a power drill, something like
one of these:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe...ves/d80/sd1920

Can anyone recommend a type? I don't have a lot of space to work in, so
something small would be good - I'm assuming I want one with the wire at
right angles to the drill shank. How quickly do these get used up (ie do I
need to buy ten like I would sheets of sandpaper)?

I obviously need to wear gloves and goggles - is there any other protective
equipment I should wear when flailing? Are these wire strands as
dangerous as the ones you get from angle grinders?

Once I have bare metal, what's best to prime it? Use the Jenolite to treat
the surface? Or straight Hammerite? Or I've heard it suggested using zinc
primer (Zinc 182?), or an epoxy-based primer. I already have some Jenolite
and black Hammerite. This time I'd like to try using the manufacturer's
paint to get a colour match (a few bits are more conspicuous than undersides
of wheel arches, where I might just stick with Hammerite).

And for bits that aren't visible (not cavities), I've heard various
suggestions of using something like penetrating Waxoyl/Dinitrol, or just
engine oil. Anyone any opinions? The underside has already been
undersealed but the underseal is broken in places. I know this is
completely the wrong time of year to do this, but not a lot I can do about
that except copious application of the hairdryer... (or is it better to
leave untreated until summer rather than seal in moisture)?

Thanks
Theo
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Default Rust treatment

On 06/11/2010 19:53, Theo Markettos wrote:
I have some steel car bodywork that's rusty and wants treatment - mostly
exterior edges of wheel arches. I think the metal is good underneath, so
it's just surface rust.

On another car I treated this sort of thing by scraping off the surface
rust, treating with Jenolite, then two coats of Hammerite, then spray
colour. But the rust continued to spread. In that case I can't be sure the
rust wasn't just coming through from the other side, so nothing would stop
it.

I've been sanding off the rust with sandpaper and a sanding block, and some
good metal is coming up, but it's quite pitted and will take an age to sand
off all the good metal to make a flat good surface.

I've been thinking of using a wire brush in a power drill, something like
one of these:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe...ves/d80/sd1920

Can anyone recommend a type? I don't have a lot of space to work in, so
something small would be good - I'm assuming I want one with the wire at
right angles to the drill shank. How quickly do these get used up (ie do I
need to buy ten like I would sheets of sandpaper)?

I obviously need to wear gloves and goggles - is there any other protective
equipment I should wear when flailing? Are these wire strands as
dangerous as the ones you get from angle grinders?

Once I have bare metal, what's best to prime it? Use the Jenolite to treat
the surface? Or straight Hammerite? Or I've heard it suggested using zinc
primer (Zinc 182?), or an epoxy-based primer. I already have some Jenolite
and black Hammerite. This time I'd like to try using the manufacturer's
paint to get a colour match (a few bits are more conspicuous than undersides
of wheel arches, where I might just stick with Hammerite).

And for bits that aren't visible (not cavities), I've heard various
suggestions of using something like penetrating Waxoyl/Dinitrol, or just
engine oil. Anyone any opinions? The underside has already been
undersealed but the underseal is broken in places. I know this is
completely the wrong time of year to do this, but not a lot I can do about
that except copious application of the hairdryer... (or is it better to
leave untreated until summer rather than seal in moisture)?

Thanks
Theo


It's a long time since I did that kind of thing but you would really be
better off with an angle grinder with flexible disc which would do the
initial preparation in minutes. AIUI the best material for reinforcing
and building up the surface for a long term repair is lead rather than
body filler, and the following link may be useful if you decide to go
down that route:

http://www.frost.co.uk/item_detail.a...D=&SubCa tID=

j
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Default Rust treatment

Djornsk wrote:
It's a long time since I did that kind of thing but you would really be
better off with an angle grinder with flexible disc which would do the
initial preparation in minutes. AIUI the best material for reinforcing
and building up the surface for a long term repair is lead rather than
body filler, and the following link may be useful if you decide to go
down that route:


Interesting... I hadn't thought of that approach. Is 'tinning' the surface
the final treatment, or does it need further painting? I have one small
dent that needed filling and I've filled it with 'Isopon' epoxy filler - but
that was easily sandable down to bare metal as it only had light rust.

This surface is upside down, so anything that requires gravity to attach
isn't going to work - solder paste might stay on by surface tension, but
significant blobs of molten solder wouldn't.

Do you need a serious hot air source? I just bought a cheap hairdryer as I
couldn't see the difference between that and a cheapo hot air gun - but I
doubt either would be hot enough to metal solder. Gas torch?

Theo
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Default Rust treatment

On Nov 6, 7:53*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:


I have some steel car bodywork that's rusty and wants treatment - mostly
exterior edges of wheel arches. *I think the metal is good underneath, so
it's just surface rust.

On another car I treated this sort of thing by scraping off the surface
rust, treating with Jenolite, then two coats of Hammerite, then spray
colour. *But the rust continued to spread. *


Scraping rust off isnt thorough, to get it off you want a wire brush
in an angle grinder. For tiny indented areas you can use a little one
in a die grinder. Wire brush in drill should do, but is a lot less
aggressive.

Hammerite is terrible for pinholing, and not whats wanted for
rustproofing.

Finally yes, the other side should get treated if possible, in
whatever effective way you can.


I've been thinking of using a wire brush in a power drill, something like
one of these:http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe...Wire+Abrasives...

Can anyone recommend a type? *I don't have a lot of space to work in, so
something small would be good - I'm assuming I want one with the wire at
right angles to the drill shank.


Yes, for best result. Cheap silverline ones are fine. I'd still prefer
an angle grinder, but it should work.

*How quickly do these get used up (ie do I
need to buy ten like I would sheets of sandpaper)?


no, they last ages


I obviously need to wear gloves and goggles - is there any other protective
equipment I should wear when flailing? *Are these wire strands as
dangerous as the ones you get from angle grinders?


Just tough gloves, indirect vent goggles. Tough footwear & face shield
optional.


NT
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In message , Theo Markettos
writes
Djornsk wrote:
It's a long time since I did that kind of thing but you would really be
better off with an angle grinder with flexible disc which would do the
initial preparation in minutes. AIUI the best material for reinforcing
and building up the surface for a long term repair is lead rather than
body filler, and the following link may be useful if you decide to go
down that route:


Interesting... I hadn't thought of that approach. Is 'tinning' the surface
the final treatment, or does it need further painting? I have one small
dent that needed filling and I've filled it with 'Isopon' epoxy filler - but
that was easily sandable down to bare metal as it only had light rust.

This surface is upside down, so anything that requires gravity to attach
isn't going to work - solder paste might stay on by surface tension, but
significant blobs of molten solder wouldn't.

Do you need a serious hot air source? I just bought a cheap hairdryer as I
couldn't see the difference between that and a cheapo hot air gun - but I
doubt either would be hot enough to metal solder. Gas torch?

Once you've got rust beneath the car, you are better off abandoning
attempts to remove it and painting over.

Except for the parts you can see (around the edges of the wheel arches
etc, which should be painted, if you can), you are better off cleaning
as much of the dirt and rust as you reasonably can (high pressure hose,
wire brush etc), and when it is thoroughly dry (use hot air gun or hair
dyer if necessary), spray with Waxoyl (or similar). Several thinned
coats are better than on thick one. In narrow nooks and crannies, spray
with WD40 first.

Don't worry too much about getting absolutely all the dirt off. Dried-on
dirt soaked and impregnated with Waxoyl is a pretty good anti-rust
protection.

In places where the coating will get a good blasting from road grit and
stones, you could finishing off with your own mixture of Waxoyl and
underseal. [This sticks better than trying to underseal over a Waxoyled
surface.]

Finally, don't forget to top up the Waxoyl spray every six months or so.
--
Ian


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Default Rust treatment

First, check if you have water ingress into the boot (trunk if in
USA!).
Check the behind any lining at the back of the wheel arches for pools
of water - sunroof drain popped out of hole, electric aerial drain
popped out of hole, other leak (can need a hose to find it).

Second, realise you can not solve this except by serious application
of new metal, but you can slow it down to something which is
controlled for about 3-4-5yrs depending on how severe it is. Some cars
do however have a problem in the wheel arch area - a weld in the wrong
place can let moisture in to a seam, a seam may have the
weatherproofing which has failed.

The best way to remove rust without removing metal is to use a 3M
Clean n Strip disc.
These come in black or purple (XT), the latter is simply a faster
version. You can get a version which fits into a cordless drill, or
into an angle grinder. To be honest they are so fast and powerful that
an angle grinder is quite unnecessary - even a sub 12V cordless drill
with a Clean-n-Strip disc will cut through paint, primer/galvanising,
rust and clean it to a surprisingly bright finish and get into the
pores. It will not get deep into the "worm hole pores", but it will
shift the mill-scale leaving pitting.

Then you really want something electrochemical to prevent rust - sadly
most cars do not have galvanised wheel arches, those that do tend to
have very limited micron depth which erodes pretty easily. The problem
is, the more zinc in the treatment a) the more expensive b) the
heavier the can c) the more difficult to get cellulose paint to stick
to it! So generally go for the highest zinc content paint you can, you
then need a primer on top which permits car spray paint to stick to it
(galvanising metal primer). Car trailer people use Zinga or
Galvafroid, but that needs an alkyd paint (IIRC) on top or a
galvanising metal primer which is typically applied with a brush.
Pretty it is not, but it is very effective at slowing down corrosion
even from the other side (as it should be, I think 250ml of Galvafroid
is about £20 these days and weighs like a lump of lead likewise).

The best solution would be a 2pk zinc loaded epoxy mastic, but they
are expensive. Colleague used it on a known atrocious for rust Merc
estate which was hammered (literally) as a "wheelbarrow" in place of a
van, because he wanted a decent automatic. It worked very well, but
was very expensive - or would have been, he actually handles
industrial coatings and thus it was little more than a sample to his
supplier.

Wire brush is a lot of noise and slow, 3M clean-n-strip is very quick
and extremely effective.
There is a "Roloc" version which has a small reverse-thread "stick" in
the middle rather than a proper shaft/spindle, it requires a "Roloc"
adapter which adds to the cost. A cordless drill is plenty powerful
(you are not stripping an entire car).

Rust is a worm, it travels as dark patches under paint - but with a
good very high content zinc primer you can actually slow it down. You
can not stop it, but it is nice to strip a bit off you did 1-2yrs ago
and find the progression is minimal, then 4yrs later you find the
really bad bit has travelled a bit bigger - but 4yrs is a long time.
Some cars are notorious which requires fresh metal and that requires
careful practice with a MIG because car sheet metal is very thin (you
tack it and let the metal cool since you are fighting erosion).

Frost Automotive do various solutions (they carry the 3M Clean n
Strip, but I can not remember which is the cordless drill "pad on a
spindle fit-n-go" part number). They do various primers. POR-15 is a
favourite anti-rust, but you can not weld metal after using it and
frankly since you can only put it on one side of the steel which is
rusting from the other side it seems pointless. You need an
electrochemical solution from experience and comparing just about
everything on the market.
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js.b1 wrote:
First, check if you have water ingress into the boot (trunk if in
USA!).
Check the behind any lining at the back of the wheel arches for pools
of water - sunroof drain popped out of hole, electric aerial drain
popped out of hole, other leak (can need a hose to find it).


I think that's OK... I haven't seen any evidence of it (eg car easily steams
up inside).

Second, realise you can not solve this except by serious application
of new metal, but you can slow it down to something which is
controlled for about 3-4-5yrs depending on how severe it is.


Yes, it's all about control. I realise it's a losing battle eventually.

The best way to remove rust without removing metal is to use a 3M
Clean n Strip disc.


Are they really that much better than the 'wire brush on a drill shank'?
The latter I can buy cheaply locally.

Then you really want something electrochemical to prevent rust - sadly
most cars do not have galvanised wheel arches, those that do tend to
have very limited micron depth which erodes pretty easily. The problem
is, the more zinc in the treatment a) the more expensive b) the
heavier the can c) the more difficult to get cellulose paint to stick
to it! So generally go for the highest zinc content paint you can, you
then need a primer on top which permits car spray paint to stick to it
(galvanising metal primer). Car trailer people use Zinga or
Galvafroid, but that needs an alkyd paint (IIRC) on top or a
galvanising metal primer which is typically applied with a brush.
Pretty it is not, but it is very effective at slowing down corrosion
even from the other side (as it should be, I think 250ml of Galvafroid
is about £20 these days and weighs like a lump of lead likewise).


Thanks, useful to know. As this is only the exterior edges of the wheel
arches and a few scratches on panels, is this really worth doing? Water+mud
is more likely to collect inside. If I underseal the insides I can delay
that, but I think it'll still be the weak spot.

I probably have 100-200cm2 to paint, so this isn't a big job. The rest is
underseal time.

Theo
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Ian Jackson wrote:
In places where the coating will get a good blasting from road grit and
stones, you could finishing off with your own mixture of Waxoyl and
underseal. [This sticks better than trying to underseal over a Waxoyled
surface.]


Thanks, that's really useful. So you'd suggest separate coats of
penetrating light WD40 or Waxoyl, and then mixed Waxoyl+underseal? I have
areas of failing underseal (coming off in lumps) - is it worth pulling this
off (might be a bit like peeling an orange - get more than you bargained
for) or slapping penetrating stuff on it and then underseal mix on top?

Finally, don't forget to top up the Waxoyl spray every six months or so.


I don't have spraying equipment (unless I buy a hundred garden sprayers or
expensive aerosol cans) - is this something that can be done adequately with
a brush?

Theo
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On Nov 7, 8:03*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:
Are they really that much better than the 'wire brush on a drill shank'?
The latter I can buy cheaply locally.


3M clean-n-strip remove less metal than a wire brush.
So if your application is trying to prolong life (say a classic car)
then it is particularly attractive.

If you have rust coming through around the wheel arches it is because
the factory applied seal between the two panels has failed, water &
salt (winter) has penetrated and once in there is little you can do
apart from treat the effect not the cause. Some cars have more than
two panels in the area due to layering of steel.

I probably have 100-200cm2 to paint, so this isn't a big job. *The rest is
underseal time.


Scrape off (heatgun?) underseal around where it has peeled to ensure
water is not getting underneath.

Remember standard automotive spray primer (grey, yellow) is in fact
porous. A near 99% zinc primer is the only way to get electrochemical
protection, so anything less is somewhat marketing.
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Oops, forgot the other reason for clean-n-strip. Firstly they remove
less metal, but secondly the abrasive particle size will get into the
rust pores & pinholes to remove millscale and rust much more
effectively and they leave a very polished surface.

If you are applying an extremely high content zinc coating this is
important as you really need a Sa2.5 finish (walnut/plastic blasting),
but when done it will electrochemically counter corrosion particularly
"pin hole progression". Car metal that is not zinc protected will
pinhole extremely easily and once it does the perforation spreads very
rapidly indeed, it is a down of the very thin yet high strength steel
alloys used.


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In message , Theo Markettos
writes
Ian Jackson wrote:
In places where the coating will get a good blasting from road grit and
stones, you could finishing off with your own mixture of Waxoyl and
underseal. [This sticks better than trying to underseal over a Waxoyled
surface.]


Thanks, that's really useful. So you'd suggest separate coats of
penetrating light WD40 or Waxoyl, and then mixed Waxoyl+underseal? I have
areas of failing underseal (coming off in lumps) - is it worth pulling this
off (might be a bit like peeling an orange - get more than you bargained
for)


Exactly! You could end up by creating a lot of essentially unnecessary
work by removing more of the original underseal than you need to.

or slapping penetrating stuff on it and then underseal mix on top?

Yes. As long as the underseal is generally adhering, it's probably best
to leave most of it in place, and try and squirt plenty of WD40 or well
thinned-down Waxoyl underneath it. Then go over with the
Waxoyl-underseal mixture (again, trying to work it into gaps etc). It
will remain gungey for some time, but eventually it will harden to a
tacky, rubbery layer. Use something like white spirit as the thinner
(both for the underseal and, if necessary, for the Waxoyl).

Finally, don't forget to top up the Waxoyl spray every six months or so.


I don't have spraying equipment (unless I buy a hundred garden sprayers or
expensive aerosol cans) - is this something that can be done adequately with
a brush?

Why would you need 'a hundred garden sprayers'? I have used one
large-ish 8 litre pump-up type - but you need to flush it out well
afterwards - and finally with warm water and washing-up liquid. The
white spirit etc can - and does - knacker the rubber seals.
Alternatively, use a small 'hand-held' one (1 litre or so) - usually
obtainable from pound shops, Homebase, B&Q etc. But if the Waxoyl proves
too thick to spray, by all means use a brush.

[Actually, Waxoyl used to sell a sprayer which looked very similar to a
bicycle pump. It did work, but it was rather tedious having to keep
sucking up the Waxoyl before each squirt. Of course, you could try a
real bicycle pump!]
--
Ian
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On Sat, 06 Nov 2010 19:53:40 +0000, Theo Markettos wrote:

I have some steel car bodywork that's rusty and wants treatment - mostly
exterior edges of wheel arches. I think the metal is good underneath,
so it's just surface rust.


I don't know - most times I've seen that, it's either coming through from
the reverse side, or via the join between inner and outer wheelarch - and
it follows the iceberg principle, where there's always ten times more
than you can actually see :-(

I've been sanding off the rust with sandpaper and a sanding block, and
some good metal is coming up, but it's quite pitted and will take an age
to sand off all the good metal to make a flat good surface.


Yep. You can skim-coat it with filler, and you can get thicker primer
paints that are designed to be sandable and take up some of the slack.

That of find a very large sacrificial anode, PSU, and bath ;-)

I've been thinking of using a wire brush in a power drill, something
like one of these:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe...ire+Abrasives/

d80/sd1920

Problem I found with steel brushes were that they took away as much good
metal as they did rust and paint. Brass is probably better - or go with
some kind of sand-blasting (if you have access to a compressor you can
DIY)
Once I have bare metal, what's best to prime it? Use the Jenolite to
treat the surface? Or straight Hammerite? Or I've heard it suggested
using zinc primer (Zinc 182?), or an epoxy-based primer. I already have
some Jenolite and black Hammerite. This time I'd like to try using the
manufacturer's paint to get a colour match (a few bits are more
conspicuous than undersides of wheel arches, where I might just stick
with Hammerite).


I think I used Hammerite the last time I messed with anything like this.
Then a few coats of thinner primer, then a few coats of top-coat. Mind
you, I was welding in new metal too because some bits were just too far
gone to mess with filler.

And for bits that aren't visible (not cavities), I've heard various
suggestions of using something like penetrating Waxoyl/Dinitrol, or just
engine oil. Anyone any opinions?


I had a huge cannister of waxoyl which came with a pump and spray
attachment, and that worked well. Fiendishly messy stuff, but it did the
job.

The underside has already been
undersealed but the underseal is broken in places.


Do your best to get rid of any broken bits that are flaking - the
waxoyl's going to stick to them, and they're going to eventually fall
off, leaving you with unprotected metal.

I know this is
completely the wrong time of year to do this, but not a lot I can do
about that except copious application of the hairdryer... (or is it
better to leave untreated until summer rather than seal in moisture)?


Are you working indoors or out? If outdoors, well... it's not going to
rust into oblivion in half a year - I think I'd be tempted to just say
sod it and deal with it next year. If indoors though, invest in a
heater...

cheers

Jules
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In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
Thanks, that's really useful. So you'd suggest separate coats of
penetrating light WD40 or Waxoyl, and then mixed Waxoyl+underseal? I
have areas of failing underseal (coming off in lumps) - is it worth
pulling this off (might be a bit like peeling an orange - get more than
you bargained for) or slapping penetrating stuff on it and then
underseal mix on top?


If underseal is peeling off, the rust will have got some way past the
edges of the loose bits. I remove the loose bits then some way round the
edges with a hot air gun. Then sand down to bright steel, apply a zinc
rich primer, then underseal.

Waxoyl is far from the best of those sort of things. Have a look at the
Dinitrol range.

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
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In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
Thanks, that's really useful. So you'd suggest separate coats of
penetrating light WD40 or Waxoyl, and then mixed Waxoyl+underseal? I
have areas of failing underseal (coming off in lumps) - is it worth
pulling this off (might be a bit like peeling an orange - get more than
you bargained for) or slapping penetrating stuff on it and then
underseal mix on top?


If underseal is peeling off, the rust will have got some way past the
edges of the loose bits. I remove the loose bits then some way round the
edges with a hot air gun. Then sand down to bright steel, apply a zinc
rich primer, then underseal.


That's fine if there are only a few, isolated areas of rust. When
there's a lot of it, it's usually less soul-destroying to abandon
attempts to do a 'restoration' job, and concentrate more on damage
limitation, as I have described. If the rust hasn't really got a hold,
it's often better to leave it in place. The WD40, Waxoyl and Dinitrol
(which I haven't used myself) will soak into it and slow its progress -
especially if you can break its surface first (by scraping or using a
wire brush).

Waxoyl is far from the best of those sort of things. Have a look at the
Dinitrol range.

As I've said, I've never tried Dinitrol. I always wondered what it was
like. At my time of life, I no longer drive the rust-buckets we used to
have to make do with in the past. Hopefully, those 'happy hours' of
hacking at the underside of cars are over!
--
Ian
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In article ,
Ian Jackson wrote:
Waxoyl is far from the best of those sort of things. Have a look at the
Dinitrol range.

As I've said, I've never tried Dinitrol. I always wondered what it was
like. At my time of life, I no longer drive the rust-buckets we used to
have to make do with in the past. Hopefully, those 'happy hours' of
hacking at the underside of cars are over!


Practical Classics did a basic set of tests on all the common waxes.

IIRC, they cut bits out of an old but good painted panel, scraped some of
the paint off, applied the wax, sprayed them with a salt solution and left
them outside.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity -- I'm a carrier

Dave Plowman London SW
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