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Default Grand Designs (again)

So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was being
built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release in the
winter!

How does that work then? Surely for there to be enough heat put into the
walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house would be
unbearably warm in the summer!

Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! What a great
investment that was.

tim


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On 14 Oct, 11:26, "tim...." wrote:
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was being
built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release in the
winter!


Then he's just wrong. Those dense bricks will hold heat overnight, but
not for much longer.

I like trombe walls and we're thinking of building one here (if we
demolish the kitchen and conservatory). However the simple form in
that house requires line-of-sight (i.e. no intervening furniture) onto
the blocks and you end up with the "prison cell" look. If you allow
circulation fans during the day, you can achieve a better looking
system by placing the blocks in lattice stacks lower down, or even in
a basement.

How does that work then?


Read a Dutch trade magazine like "Tomatoes and Tomato News" (there are
such things). It's a very big topic in the Netherlands at present,
and beginning to be one in Lancashire. Commercial glasshouses have
been using water-sourced heat pumps for winter heating for some years,
but now they're also starting to run them in reverse over the Summer.
It's not only coooling, it provides a source of heat over the Winter
season.


Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! *What a great
investment that was.


Less than 40 grand, I thought? I thought 40 was for the one he had
wanted (maybe a QR5?, as 40k is the usual quote for them) and so
presumably the clumsy lumper they bought instead had been cheaper. It
just shows that not all turbines are equal, not even vertical axis
machines, and two-bladers are far more visually intrusive. What a
great Nelson's Column of a tower that thing needed too!
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In article ,
tim.... wrote:
Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! What a great
investment that was.


Indeed. But buying number one of anything has its risks. I did wonder
about the super efficient gearbox. That would have applications for
anything - so smelt of hype.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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"tim...." wrote in message
...
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was
being built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release in
the winter!

How does that work then? Surely for there to be enough heat put into the
walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house would be
unbearably warm in the summer!

Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! What a great
investment that was.

tim


The probable answer is that it wont work. There is no way you could store
enough heat energy in this way for an entire winter.

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On 14 Oct, 11:26, "tim...." wrote:
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was being
built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release in the
winter!

How does that work then? *Surely for there to be enough heat put into the
walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house would be
unbearably warm in the summer!

Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! *What a great
investment that was.

tim


I think we can conclude that it's a failure
I have a similar house, except it looks like a normal house. I have
about three times the insulation and insulated shutters on the window
together with active heat collection.
In a normal Winter I can get to Christmas before the heat's leaking
out faster than the TV and refrigerator can put it back. I have a
small woodburing stove.
The design was stupid, his solar windows were shaded out by adjacent
trees and by the curve. It would have been better if the convex curve
had faced South and had the big windows.
He seemed to have no insulation under the floors either.
As for the turbine, he needs to get a refund.

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T wrote:
"tim...." wrote in message
...
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was
being built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release
in the winter!

How does that work then? Surely for there to be enough heat put into
the walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house
would be unbearably warm in the summer!

Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! What a great
investment that was.

tim


The probable answer is that it wont work. There is no way you could
store enough heat energy in this way for an entire winter.



Although as I calculated here, a meter deep insulated pool of boiling
water under the house, could.

As with most grand designs,. long on imagination, short on basic
engineering mathematics.

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In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:
T wrote:
"tim...." wrote in message
...
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was
being built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release
in the winter!

How does that work then? Surely for there to be enough heat put into
the walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house
would be unbearably warm in the summer!

[...]

The probable answer is that it wont work. There is no way you could
store enough heat energy in this way for an entire winter.


Although as I calculated here, a meter deep insulated pool of boiling
water under the house, could.


Even better if you can use molten salt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasona...thermal_stores
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal...alt_technology

I've not seen the program yet, but "being built of materials which stored
heat" enough for seasonal storage, not just day/night storage, sounds pretty
implausible. Phase change materials let you pump heat in without raising the
temperature, but even now Google tells me there are ones designed for use
in building materials, I can't see it working for a _seasonal_ store.
http://www2.basf.us/corporate/080204_micronal.htm

(If you can fill a basement with an insulated pool of boiling water, then
phase change materials might be a more efficient way of doing the same thing.
http://www.capzo.nl/index.asp?CategorieID=2&Taal=EN
But building out of materials which will act as a store isn't the same as
designing a building around a huge store.)
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Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:
T wrote:
"tim...." wrote in message
...
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was
being built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release
in the winter!

How does that work then? Surely for there to be enough heat put into
the walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house
would be unbearably warm in the summer!

[...]
The probable answer is that it wont work. There is no way you could
store enough heat energy in this way for an entire winter.

Although as I calculated here, a meter deep insulated pool of boiling
water under the house, could.


Even better if you can use molten salt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasona...thermal_stores
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal...alt_technology

I've not seen the program yet, but "being built of materials which stored
heat" enough for seasonal storage, not just day/night storage, sounds pretty
implausible. Phase change materials let you pump heat in without raising the
temperature, but even now Google tells me there are ones designed for use
in building materials, I can't see it working for a _seasonal_ store.
http://www2.basf.us/corporate/080204_micronal.htm

(If you can fill a basement with an insulated pool of boiling water, then
phase change materials might be a more efficient way of doing the same thing.


the insulation requirements for hot water are a lot less demanding than
molten salt :-)


As are the heat exchangers.


It was a thought experiment, but it essentially showed that a tank of
almost boiling water could hold a ****load of heat.

hat counts is, once its big enough, the rate of heat loss. Again boiling
water is not so hot that its gonna radiate much, and insulation would
keep it cosy.


http://www.capzo.nl/index.asp?CategorieID=2&Taal=EN


Neat link. I bet it isnt as cheap as water tho :-)

But building out of materials which will act as a store isn't the same as
designing a building around a huge store.)


No..which was my point

The house here is pretty massive, but even so its time constant is 3
days, not three months...


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On 14 Oct, 19:12, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

the insulation requirements for hot water are a lot less demanding than
molten salt :-)


That depends on the salt.
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In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Alan Braggins wrote:

the insulation requirements for hot water are a lot less demanding than
molten salt :-)


That depends. The microencapsulated salt hydrate:
http://www.capzo.nl/index.asp?CategorieID=2&Taal=EN

has a melting temperature of 35C.

(But yes, molten sodium chloride isn't likely to be a domestic application.)


Neat link. I bet it isnt as cheap as water tho :-)


I'm sure it isn't. Potentially a lot easier to use than a tank of boiling
water though, and so cheaper overall.
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Andy Dingley wrote:
On 14 Oct, 19:12, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

the insulation requirements for hot water are a lot less demanding than
molten salt :-)


That depends on the salt.


Ah. I assmued you meant salt, not salt ;-)
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"tim...." wrote in message
...
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was
being built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release in
the winter!

How does that work then? Surely for there to be enough heat put into the
walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house would be
unbearably warm in the summer!

Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! What a great
investment that was.

tim

One point that never seems to considered by builders on Grand Designs is
that if you build a house that looks like an aircraft departure lounge or a
nuclear bunker, will it be saleable if they ever want to move?

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"T" wrote in message
...
"tim...." wrote in message
...
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was
being built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release in
the winter!

How does that work then? Surely for there to be enough heat put into the
walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house would
be unbearably warm in the summer!

Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! What a great
investment that was.

tim

One point that never seems to considered by builders on Grand Designs is
that if you build a house that looks like an aircraft departure lounge or
a nuclear bunker, will it be saleable if they ever want to move?


If it really meets it's (net) zero electricity usage then I'm sure it will.

But it probably wont

tim




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On 15 Oct, 11:08, "tim...." wrote:
"T" wrote in message

...





"tim...." wrote in message
...
So, according to Kevin's voiceover, the house the guy was building was
being built of materials which stored heat from the summer to release in
the winter!


How does that work then? *Surely for there to be enough heat put into the
walls for there to be any left at the end of the winter the house would
be unbearably warm in the summer!


Oh and 40 grand for a wind turbine that doesn't work! *What a great
investment that was.


tim


One point that never seems to considered by builders on Grand Designs is
that if you build a house that looks like an aircraft departure lounge or
a nuclear bunker, will it be saleable if they ever want to move?


If it really meets it's (net) zero electricity usage then I'm sure it will.

But it probably wont

tim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I think with the subsidy now offered electricity sellback, you could
easily do it. I am considering it myself. What puts me off is the
damage they do to the roof to attach these things (PV panels). But
you get more money than storing it in the bank for zero interest.
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"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 14 Oct, 19:12, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

the insulation requirements for hot water are a lot less demanding than
molten salt :-)


That depends on the salt.


Molten sodium is the stuff to use.
Then you can add water and use the hydrogen in an emergency. ;-)

I remember the trials of aluminium and sodium hydroxide as emergency
batteries for exchanges if anyone has scrap aluminium around.

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On 15/10/2010 17:07, harry wrote:

I think with the subsidy now offered electricity sellback, you could
easily do it. I am considering it myself. What puts me off is the
damage they do to the roof to attach these things (PV panels). But
you get more money than storing it in the bank for zero interest.


The people who did a couple of my friend's installations did a nice tidy
job, so I guess the damage to the roof depends somewhat on your installers.
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On 14 Oct, 19:12, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The house here is pretty massive, but even so its time constant is 3
days, not three months...


can't resist...

I expect the bluster counteracts the hot air somewhat ;))

Jim K
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On 15 Oct, 08:47, (Alan Braggins) wrote:

I'm sure it isn't. Potentially a lot easier to use than a tank of boiling
water though, and so cheaper overall.


You let the salt go cold to ambient temperature afterwards. The energy
is stored in it purely as the phase change, not as sensible heat.


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On 14 Oct, 14:40, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Indeed. But buying number one of anything has its risks. I did wonder
about the super efficient gearbox. That would have applications for
anything - so smelt of hype.


Most vertical axis turbines (actually most domestic scale turbines,
either way) have a 100% efficient gearbox by simple virtue of not
needing one - just drive the generator directly. TNP seems to think
that a gearbox and model aircraft motor is the way to go, so what more
evidence do you need?

The turbine on Grand Designs looked like a Skyrota, the bunch out
Londonderry way.
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Andy Dingley wrote:
On 14 Oct, 14:40, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Indeed. But buying number one of anything has its risks. I did wonder
about the super efficient gearbox. That would have applications for
anything - so smelt of hype.


Most vertical axis turbines (actually most domestic scale turbines,
either way) have a 100% efficient gearbox by simple virtue of not
needing one - just drive the generator directly. TNP seems to think
that a gearbox and model aircraft motor is the way to go, so what more
evidence do you need?

The turbine on Grand Designs looked like a Skyrota, the bunch out
Londonderry way.

Most gearboxes are pretty efficient..90-95% is typical of a decent setup.

Depends on torque loading though - a drive train tends to look like a
the frictional device, so the more power you put through it, the more
efficient it gets.


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In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 14 Oct, 14:40, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:


Indeed. But buying number one of anything has its risks. I did wonder
about the super efficient gearbox. That would have applications for
anything - so smelt of hype.


Most vertical axis turbines (actually most domestic scale turbines,
either way) have a 100% efficient gearbox by simple virtue of not
needing one - just drive the generator directly. TNP seems to think
that a gearbox and model aircraft motor is the way to go, so what more
evidence do you need?


The turbine on Grand Designs looked like a Skyrota, the bunch out
Londonderry way.


I spent the whole weekend a couple ago in the middle of a wind farm in the
NE of Scotland. Was surprised just how slow they turned. Have those no
gearbox too?

--
*I speak fluent patriarchy but it's not my mother tongue

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On 15 Oct, 23:23, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

I spent the whole weekend a couple ago in the middle of a wind farm in the
NE of Scotland. Was surprised just how slow they turned. Have those no
gearbox too?


They have gearboxes. They also have 3MW generators and masts you can
climb up the inside of for maintenance.
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In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 15 Oct, 23:23, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:


I spent the whole weekend a couple ago in the middle of a wind farm in
the NE of Scotland. Was surprised just how slow they turned. Have
those no gearbox too?


They have gearboxes. They also have 3MW generators and masts you can
climb up the inside of for maintenance.


Indeed. Being a townie, I'd never been close to one before so didn't
realise just how big they are.
Some complain about the noise, but despite sleeping in a caravan very
close to one I didn't really notice it. Just a gentle swish.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I spent the whole weekend a couple ago in the middle of a wind farm


[...]

Being a townie, I'd never been close to one before so didn't
realise just how big they are.


Not for nothing were they referred to previously as "jumbo jets on
sticks" ...

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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 14 Oct, 14:40, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:


Indeed. But buying number one of anything has its risks. I did wonder
about the super efficient gearbox. That would have applications for
anything - so smelt of hype.


Most vertical axis turbines (actually most domestic scale turbines,
either way) have a 100% efficient gearbox by simple virtue of not
needing one - just drive the generator directly. TNP seems to think
that a gearbox and model aircraft motor is the way to go, so what more
evidence do you need?


The turbine on Grand Designs looked like a Skyrota, the bunch out
Londonderry way.


I spent the whole weekend a couple ago in the middle of a wind farm in the
NE of Scotland. Was surprised just how slow they turned. Have those no
gearbox too?

Full size ones have gearboxes.

The blade tips although slow, get up to a couple of hundred MPH.

about the most efficient place really. Any more and they start to get
near transonic..



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On 16/10/2010 5:10 a.m., dennis@home wrote:

Molten sodium is the stuff to use.
Then you can add water and use the hydrogen in an emergency. ;-)


"Jimmy, it's getting a bit chilly, go and throw a bucket of water on the sodium,
will you?"
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On 15 Oct, 17:36, Clive George wrote:
On 15/10/2010 17:07, harry wrote:

I think with the subsidy now offered *electricity sellback, you could
easily do it. *I am considering it myself. What puts me off is the
damage they do to the roof to attach these things (PV panels). *But
you get more money than storing it in the bank for zero interest.


The people who did a couple of my friend's installations did a nice tidy
job, so I guess the damage to the roof depends somewhat on your installers.


They make lots of holes through the slates/tiles to secure a massive
aluminium frame against getting blown away by wind with brackets.
There are lead/plastic weathering sleeves on these brackets (which are
attached to the rafters). The cost of removing/changing the setup
would exceed the cost of putting it in. Makes me a bit twitchy, the
thought if it all went tits up.
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On 15 Oct, 23:23, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* *Andy Dingley wrote:

On 14 Oct, 14:40, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Indeed. But buying number one of anything has its risks. I did wonder
about the super efficient gearbox. That would have applications for
anything - so smelt of hype.

Most vertical axis turbines (actually most domestic scale turbines,
either way) have a 100% efficient gearbox by simple virtue of not
needing one - just drive the generator directly. TNP seems to think
that a gearbox and model aircraft motor is the way to go, so what more
evidence do you need?
The turbine on Grand Designs looked like a Skyrota, the bunch out
Londonderry way.


I spent the whole weekend a couple ago in the middle of a wind farm in the
NE of Scotland. Was surprised just how slow they turned. Have those no
gearbox too?

--
*I speak fluent patriarchy but it's not my mother tongue

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.


They do have a gearbox. Assuming they have synchronous generators,
they only have two speeds. Stop and go.
The torque generated varies with wind speed.
Most designs have variable pitch "propellors".


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On 16 Oct, 00:22, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* *Andy Dingley wrote:

On 15 Oct, 23:23, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
I spent the whole weekend a couple ago in the middle of a wind farm in
the NE of Scotland. Was surprised just how slow they turned. Have
those no gearbox too?

They have gearboxes. They also have 3MW generators and masts you can
climb up the inside of for maintenance.


Indeed. Being a townie, I'd never been close to one before so didn't
realise just how big they are.
Some complain about the noise, but despite sleeping in a caravan very
close to one I didn't really notice it. Just a gentle swish.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.


The noise varies with windspeed.
I notice the one on the programme seemed to have no easy access to the
top of the pole. Yet another problem as it was so high(33m?)
How was it maintained?
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harry wrote:

I notice the one on the programme seemed to have no easy access to the
top of the pole. Yet another problem as it was so high(33m?)
How was it maintained?


The same way it was erected - it pivots at the bottom of the
mast.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
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On 16 Oct, 02:42, Gib Bogle wrote:
On 16/10/2010 5:10 a.m., dennis@home wrote:



Molten sodium is the stuff to use.
Then you can add water and use the hydrogen in an emergency. ;-)


"Jimmy, it's getting a bit chilly, go and throw a bucket of water on the sodium,
will you?"


.....and go riddle the uranium pile while you're in there....

Jim(my) K
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harry wrote:

They make lots of holes through the slates/tiles to secure a massive
aluminium frame against getting blown away by wind with brackets.
There are lead/plastic weathering sleeves on these brackets (which are
attached to the rafters). The cost of removing/changing the setup
would exceed the cost of putting it in. Makes me a bit twitchy, the
thought if it all went tits up.


Not the only way to do it.

Most firms use fixings which are accommodated by simply sliding a
few tiles up out of the way, screwing the brackets to the roof
timbers, and replacing the tiles. Simples!

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
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On 16 Oct, 09:05, Chris J Dixon wrote:
harry wrote:
They make lots of holes through the slates/tiles to secure a massive
aluminium frame against getting blown away by wind with brackets.
There are lead/plastic weathering sleeves on these brackets (which are
attached to the rafters). * The cost of removing/changing the setup
would exceed the cost of putting it in. *Makes me a bit twitchy, the
thought if it all went tits up.


Not the only way to do it.

Most firms use fixings which are accommodated by simply sliding a
few tiles up out of the way, screwing the brackets to the roof
timbers, and replacing the tiles. Simples!

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon *Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.


Slates don't just slide out of the way. And niether do most tiles.
Some interlocking tiles might silde up.
The sort of thing you'fe talking about works for a single small panel.
But if you're going to cover the roof in panels than somthing far more
substantial is needed.


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Default Grand Designs (again)

harry wrote:

Slates don't just slide out of the way. And niether do most tiles.
Some interlocking tiles might silde up.
The sort of thing you'fe talking about works for a single small panel.
But if you're going to cover the roof in panels than somthing far more
substantial is needed.


My tiles slide fine, none will be drilled. The planned
installation is large. As I said, brackets are affixed, these
support rails onto which the panels are fastened.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
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Default Grand Designs (again)

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes
harry wrote:

Slates don't just slide out of the way. And niether do most tiles.
Some interlocking tiles might silde up.
The sort of thing you'fe talking about works for a single small panel.
But if you're going to cover the roof in panels than somthing far more
substantial is needed.


My tiles slide fine, none will be drilled. The planned
installation is large. As I said, brackets are affixed, these
support rails onto which the panels are fastened.


Sounds like our friends recent installation. About 10 Panels IIRC.

AFAICR, the brackets have been fitted to the roof without any need for
flashing etc. (they have modern-ish tiles so easy to slide, our
Vicrorian slate roof would be a bit more of a fiddle maybe).

There is a sort of slotted square aluminium section rail fixed to the
brackets running along the roof - top and bottom of the panels. The
panels are fixed to the rails with clips/clamps
--
Chris French

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Default Grand Designs (again)

On 18 Oct, 10:03, chris French
wrote:
In message , Chris J Dixon
writes

harry wrote:


Slates don't just slide out of the way. And niether do most tiles.
Some interlocking tiles might silde up.
The sort of thing you'fe talking about works for a single small panel.
But if you're going to cover the roof in panels than somthing far more
substantial is needed.


My tiles slide fine, none will be drilled. The planned
installation is large. As I said, brackets are affixed, these
support rails onto which the panels are fastened.


Sounds like our friends recent installation. About 10 Panels IIRC.

AFAICR, the brackets have been fitted to the roof without any need for
flashing etc. (they have modern-ish tiles so easy to slide, our
Vicrorian slate roof would be *a bit more of a fiddle maybe).

There is a sort of slotted square aluminium section rail fixed to the
brackets running along the roof - top and bottom of the panels. The
panels are fixed to the rails with clips/clamps
--
Chris French


I called in at a manufacturer's shop. They has massive brackets on
these particular ones. I don't see how you could achieve a good fix
without some disruption to the slates/tiles.
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