[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

Sigh. Having sanded and varnished most of my downstairs floors
(suspended over a space too small to access), fitted new skirtings, a
hearth and a fireplace (which seemed like quite enough work at the
time), I'm now wishing that I'd really bitten the bullet, taken up the
floorboards and insulated underneath. Even if I'd demolished most of
the tongues in the process, I could have ripped them into straight-
edged boards.

I have one room to go, and might go the whole hog there (ironically
it's a spare room). But for the rest of the ground floor, the idea of
pulling off all the skirtings (how else to remove the T&G boards whose
ends go under them, and are fixed with brads an inch from the wall?),
and doing the floors again, is heartbreaking, though I might just bite
the bullet when I've completed all the other jobs. Or I'll content
myself with lots of rugs.

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Cheers
Richard

[Jim K[_3_]]

On 4 Oct, 10:03, geraldthehamster wrote:
snip

I have one room to go, and might go the whole hog there (ironically
it's a spare room). But for the rest of the ground floor, the idea of
pulling off all the skirtings (how else to remove the T&G boards whose
ends go under them, and are fixed with brads an inch from the wall?),

how and with what would you propose to insulate? can't you bodge
*something* for the last (5inch?) board upto the skirts?

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

voodoo? ;)

Jim K

[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

On 4 Oct, 11:45, Owain wrote:
On Oct 4, 10:03*am, geraldthehamster *wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Could you cut an access through an external wall?

Or squirty foam.

Owain

Even if I did cut such an access, there's not enough room for anyone
other than an unskilled very small child, and the dwarf walls that
support the joists at intervals would necessitate many such holes.

Helium-based squirty foam,that would rise and stick to the underside
of the floorboards?

;-)

Oh come on, there must be a way we haven't thought of.

Cheers
Richard

[Martin Bonner]

On Oct 4, 11:51*am, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Oct, 11:45, Owain wrote:

On Oct 4, 10:03*am, geraldthehamster *wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Could you cut an access through an external wall?

Or squirty foam.

Owain

Even if I did cut such an access, there's not enough room for anyone
other than an unskilled very small child, and the dwarf walls that
support the joists at intervals would necessitate many such holes.

Helium-based squirty foam,that would rise and stick to the underside
of the floorboards?

;-)

Oh come on, there must be a way we haven't thought of.

*LOTS* of squirty foam to entirely fill the underfloor void?

Ventilation for your joists? Why would you want ventilation?

[Spamlet]

"geraldthehamster" wrote in message
...
Sigh. Having sanded and varnished most of my downstairs floors
(suspended over a space too small to access), fitted new skirtings, a
hearth and a fireplace (which seemed like quite enough work at the
time), I'm now wishing that I'd really bitten the bullet, taken up the
floorboards and insulated underneath. Even if I'd demolished most of
the tongues in the process, I could have ripped them into straight-
edged boards.

I have one room to go, and might go the whole hog there (ironically
it's a spare room). But for the rest of the ground floor, the idea of
pulling off all the skirtings (how else to remove the T&G boards whose
ends go under them, and are fixed with brads an inch from the wall?),
and doing the floors again, is heartbreaking, though I might just bite
the bullet when I've completed all the other jobs. Or I'll content
myself with lots of rugs.

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Cheers
Richard

Rats; mice; and wasps seem to be pretty good at filling up under floors with
insulation.

Otherwise: foam through the knotholes. The cavity wall insulation people
very quickly filled up the walls in my old house. Sure they could quote for
floors if you asked.

S

[Phil L]

geraldthehamster wrote:


Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.

You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.

You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around



--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

On 4 Oct, 21:03, "Phil L" wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.

You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.

You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

These have been my conclusions, every time I've thought about it :-(

I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust, and stains from
coffee, wine and mouse blood. Or ripping the lot out and replacing
with concrete, which would be stupid and unnecessary ;-)

One is to remove my skirtings, prise up the floorboards, insulate,
tidy up the boards on a table saw, refit, fit new skirtings and
decorate. In three rooms and a hallway.

The other is to continue to collect relatively inexpensive Persian
rugs, and attach Tri-Iso insulation to the backs of them. That way
much of the heat loss would be eliminated.

Hence my reference to the Holy Grail - don't bring me common sense,
bring me solutions ;-)

Cheers
Richard

[Phil]

On 5 Oct, 12:04, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Oct, 21:03, "Phil L" wrote:



geraldthehamster wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.

You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.

You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

These have been my conclusions, every time I've thought about it :-(

I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust, and stains from
coffee, wine and mouse blood. Or ripping the lot out and replacing
with concrete, which would be stupid and unnecessary ;-)

One is to remove my skirtings, prise up the floorboards, insulate,
tidy up the boards on a table saw, refit, fit new skirtings and
decorate. In three rooms and a hallway.

The other is to continue to collect relatively inexpensive Persian
rugs, and attach Tri-Iso insulation to the backs of them. That way
much of the heat loss would be eliminated.

Hence my reference to the Holy Grail - don't bring me common sense,
bring me solutions ;-)

Cheers
Richard

Surely only one or two long boards removed would provide access to
blow insulation under?
Even if you wanted to remove ALL the boards, sawing through the tongue
on one with insert favourite sawing device here would release them
all (once skirtings off).

[Adam Aglionby]

On 5 Oct, 12:04, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Oct, 21:03, "Phil L" wrote:



geraldthehamster wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.

You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.

You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

These have been my conclusions, every time I've thought about it :-(

I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust, and stains from
coffee, wine and mouse blood. Or ripping the lot out and replacing
with concrete, which would be stupid and unnecessary ;-)

One is to remove my skirtings, prise up the floorboards, insulate,
tidy up the boards on a table saw, refit, fit new skirtings and
decorate. In three rooms and a hallway.

The other is to continue to collect relatively inexpensive Persian
rugs, and attach Tri-Iso insulation to the backs of them. That way
much of the heat loss would be eliminated.

Hence my reference to the Holy Grail - don't bring me common sense,
bring me solutions ;-)

Cheers
Richard

Do wonder about insulating under floor voids, roof voids have air and
draughts deliberately introduced to stop rot, concerned that creating
static air under floor timbers might introduce a rot encouraging
enviroment?

Cheers
Adam

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Oct, 21:03, "Phil L" wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.
Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.

You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.

You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

These have been my conclusions, every time I've thought about it :-(

I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust, and stains from
coffee, wine and mouse blood. Or ripping the lot out and replacing
with concrete, which would be stupid and unnecessary ;-)

One is to remove my skirtings, prise up the floorboards, insulate,
tidy up the boards on a table saw, refit, fit new skirtings and
decorate. In three rooms and a hallway.

The other is to continue to collect relatively inexpensive Persian
rugs, and attach Tri-Iso insulation to the backs of them. That way
much of the heat loss would be eliminated.

Hence my reference to the Holy Grail - don't bring me common sense,
bring me solutions ;-)


Bite the bullet Richard, and lift the floor.

Then wedge 60-100mm celotex between the joists, tape over with the
approved tape. seal any edges with expanding foam till its completely
airtight, and re-lay the floor.


Cheers
Richard

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Adam Aglionby wrote:
On 5 Oct, 12:04, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Oct, 21:03, "Phil L" wrote:



geraldthehamster wrote:
Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.
Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.
You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.
You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around
--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008
These have been my conclusions, every time I've thought about it :-(

I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust, and stains from
coffee, wine and mouse blood. Or ripping the lot out and replacing
with concrete, which would be stupid and unnecessary ;-)

One is to remove my skirtings, prise up the floorboards, insulate,
tidy up the boards on a table saw, refit, fit new skirtings and
decorate. In three rooms and a hallway.

The other is to continue to collect relatively inexpensive Persian
rugs, and attach Tri-Iso insulation to the backs of them. That way
much of the heat loss would be eliminated.

Hence my reference to the Holy Grail - don't bring me common sense,
bring me solutions ;-)

Cheers
Richard

Do wonder about insulating under floor voids, roof voids have air and
draughts deliberately introduced to stop rot, concerned that creating
static air under floor timbers might introduce a rot encouraging
enviroment?


That's why you should use the same system as for rooves. Celotex and
leave the air circulation alone.

Cheers
Adam

[Adrian C]

On 05/10/2010 12:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Bite the bullet Richard, and lift the floor.

Then wedge 60-100mm celotex between the joists, tape over with the
approved tape. seal any edges with expanding foam till its completely
airtight, and re-lay the floor.

One of the issues I have procrastinating about doing a DIY job is
overestimating the effort and potential problems I may encounter.
Sometimes it turns out easier than I first thought, but getting started
is hard.

The OP has the training run-up available to do the undecorated room
first. Press on!!

Now, reading these posts is making me wish that we'd done the same for
the floors as well as the external walls (which we did Celotex) prior to
our recent whole house replastering. But that would be messy now, take
effort, I'd have to clean up, price of fish could rise...

See ;-)

--
Adrian C

[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

On Oct 5, 12:16*pm, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On 5 Oct, 12:04, geraldthehamster wrote:





On 4 Oct, 21:03, "Phil L" wrote:

geraldthehamster wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.

You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.

You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

These have been my conclusions, every time I've thought about it :-(

I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust, and stains from
coffee, wine and mouse blood. Or ripping the lot out and replacing
with concrete, which would be stupid and unnecessary ;-)

One is to remove my skirtings, prise up the floorboards, insulate,
tidy up the boards on a table saw, refit, fit new skirtings and
decorate. In three rooms and a hallway.

The other is to continue to collect relatively inexpensive Persian
rugs, and attach Tri-Iso insulation to the backs of them. That way
much of the heat loss would be eliminated.

Hence my reference to the Holy Grail - don't bring me common sense,
bring me solutions ;-)

Cheers
Richard

Do wonder about insulating under floor voids, roof voids have air and
draughts deliberately introduced to stop rot, concerned that creating
static air under floor timbers might introduce a rot encouraging
enviroment?

Cheers
Adam- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Absolutely - it's important not to interfere with the ventilation,
which is why you can't simply fill the void through a hole.

cheers
Richard

[Jules Richardson]

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 03:51:37 -0700, geraldthehamster wrote:

On 4 Oct, 11:45, Owain wrote:
On Oct 4, 10:03Â*am, geraldthehamster Â*wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Could you cut an access through an external wall?

Or squirty foam.

Owain

Even if I did cut such an access, there's not enough room for anyone
other than an unskilled very small child, and the dwarf walls that
support the joists at intervals would necessitate many such holes.

How much space are we talking about? It's surprising how small a space a
human can fit into. Insulating probably doesn't need a lot of clearance,
either - no messing with power tools, no need to swing a hammer etc.

cheers

Jules

[robgraham]

On 5 Oct, 12:04, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Oct, 21:03, "Phil L" wrote:









geraldthehamster wrote:

Which leaves the Holy Grail, discussed on here before - how to
insulate under a suspended timber floor, with no access from
underneath, without removing the floor.

Filling the entire void is not an option, unless you want your joists to rot
away within a few short years.

You can't get access under the floor and you don't want to take the entire
floor up? - then it cannot be insulated, end of story.

You could insulate above the existing floor, with 75mm celotex or similar,
then put a floating floor above that, but then you'd lose about 90mm of room
height (and your internal doors would be 90mm shorter too) plus you'd have
to put new skirtings all the way around

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

These have been my conclusions, every time I've thought about it :-(

I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust, and stains from
coffee, wine and mouse blood. Or ripping the lot out and replacing
with concrete, which would be stupid and unnecessary ;-)

One is to remove my skirtings, prise up the floorboards, insulate,
tidy up the boards on a table saw, refit, fit new skirtings and
decorate. In three rooms and a hallway.

The other is to continue to collect relatively inexpensive Persian
rugs, and attach Tri-Iso insulation to the backs of them. That way
much of the heat loss would be eliminated.

Hence my reference to the Holy Grail - don't bring me common sense,
bring me solutions ;-)

Cheers
Richard

Don't tell me about it !! Mine is an 18th Century stone cottage - in
the 1920's it was upgraded and the original earth /stone slab? floor
(where did the slabs go?) was replaced by a well ventilated suspended
wood floor throughout, plus the white-washed stone walls were covered
over with lath and plaster. Our first winters were awful (but we were
young and in love!!) as the underfloor winds funnelled up between the
plasterwork and the 3 ft thick stone walls into the roof space - we
huddled round a small coal fire with a massive heatsink all round us.

The walls were all dealt with - stripped off, insulated and re-
boarded, but I didn't do the floors. Wish I had but really too old
now !

Rob

[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

On Oct 5, 12:50*pm, Adrian C wrote:
On 05/10/2010 12:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bite the bullet Richard, and lift the floor.

Then wedge 60-100mm celotex between the joists, tape over with the
approved tape. seal any edges with expanding foam till its completely
airtight, and re-lay the floor.

One of the issues I have procrastinating about doing a DIY job is
overestimating the effort and potential problems I may encounter.
Sometimes it turns out easier than I first thought, but getting started
is hard.

The OP has the training run-up available to do the undecorated room
first. Press on!!

Now, reading these posts is making me wish that we'd done the same for
the floors as well as the external walls (which we did Celotex) prior to
our recent whole house replastering. But that would be messy now, take
effort, I'd have to clean up, price of fish could rise...

See ;-)

--
Adrian C

I think perhaps when the memory of having just *finished* the rooms in
question has faded (after a couple of years, perhaps), and when I've
done all the other, not inconsiderable jobs (like building an
extension), I must just be able to come to terms with ripping this out
and doing it. I know how to do it, technically, but thanks for all the
advice.

I admit to being slightly disappointed that nobody seems to be better
at thinking outside the box than I am ;-)

Cheers
Richard

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

geraldthehamster wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Adrian C wrote:
On 05/10/2010 12:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bite the bullet Richard, and lift the floor.
Then wedge 60-100mm celotex between the joists, tape over with the
approved tape. seal any edges with expanding foam till its completely
airtight, and re-lay the floor.
One of the issues I have procrastinating about doing a DIY job is
overestimating the effort and potential problems I may encounter.
Sometimes it turns out easier than I first thought, but getting started
is hard.

The OP has the training run-up available to do the undecorated room
first. Press on!!

Now, reading these posts is making me wish that we'd done the same for
the floors as well as the external walls (which we did Celotex) prior to
our recent whole house replastering. But that would be messy now, take
effort, I'd have to clean up, price of fish could rise...

See ;-)

--
Adrian C

I think perhaps when the memory of having just *finished* the rooms in
question has faded (after a couple of years, perhaps), and when I've
done all the other, not inconsiderable jobs (like building an
extension), I must just be able to come to terms with ripping this out
and doing it. I know how to do it, technically, but thanks for all the
advice.

I admit to being slightly disappointed that nobody seems to be better
at thinking outside the box than I am ;-)


When the box has no holes, its not worth thinking outside it if you cant
get to the outside to do the work..;-)

I am perpetually surprised how much LESS works it is to do a strip down
ad rebuild than to tinker..

Watdching American Hot Rod last night..no oil pressure. Manager says
'engine out, strip, sort' and they find that in fact, the oil pickup is
jammed against the sump. Nothing less than a total strip to get to that
anyway.

I had a bit of architrave to make. Curved moulding. I sent three weeks
agonising, and acquiring router table and bits, half an hour jigsawing
and hand sanding curve, and 15 seconds machining the moulding with the
help of SWMBO.

Use to spend all day bashing at break drums on MGBS in the mud. One day,
brainwave. Remove rear axle complete, in vice with blowlamp and angle
grinder, replace all corroded bits in warm, refit axle, bleed brakes. 3
hours.

It probably takes less than a day to rip up a floor, fit Celotex and put
it back down.




Cheers
Richard

[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

On 5 Oct, 17:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Adrian C wrote:
On 05/10/2010 12:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bite the bullet Richard, and lift the floor.
Then wedge 60-100mm celotex between the joists, tape over with the
approved tape. seal any edges with expanding foam till its completely
airtight, and re-lay the floor.
One of the issues I have procrastinating about doing a DIY job is
overestimating the effort and potential problems I may encounter.
Sometimes it turns out easier than I first thought, but getting started
is hard.

The OP has the training run-up available to do the undecorated room
first. Press on!!

Now, reading these posts is making me wish that we'd done the same for
the floors as well as the external walls (which we did Celotex) prior to
our recent whole house replastering. But that would be messy now, take
effort, I'd have to clean up, price of fish could rise...

See ;-)

--
Adrian C

I think perhaps when the memory of having just *finished* the rooms in
question has faded (after a couple of years, perhaps), and when I've
done all the other, not inconsiderable jobs (like building an
extension), I must just be able to come to terms with ripping this out
and doing it. I know how to do it, technically, but thanks for all the
advice.

I admit to being slightly disappointed that nobody seems to be better
at thinking outside the box than I am ;-)

When the box has no holes, its not worth thinking outside it if you cant
get to the outside to do the work..;-)

I am perpetually surprised how much LESS works it is to do a strip down
* ad rebuild than to tinker..

Watdching American Hot Rod last night..no oil pressure. Manager says
'engine out, strip, sort' and they find that in fact, the oil pickup is
jammed against the sump. Nothing less than a total strip to get to that
anyway.

I had a bit of architrave to make. Curved moulding. I sent three weeks
agonising, and acquiring router table and bits, half an hour jigsawing
and hand sanding curve, and 15 seconds machining the moulding with the
help of SWMBO.

Use to spend all day bashing at break drums on MGBS in the mud. One day,
brainwave. Remove rear axle complete, in vice with blowlamp and angle
grinder, replace all corroded bits in warm, refit axle, bleed brakes. 3
hours.

It probably takes less than a day to rip up a floor, fit Celotex and put
it back down.



Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree with you in principle, though my experience with floors leads
me to question your timescale ;-) The last floor I laid took several
evenings just to get the floorboards down, though admittedly that
involved a lot of measuring and cutting that wouldn't be needed if you
were re-laying boards in their original position. Subject to the
condition you managed to pull them up in, and any remedial work on a
table saw, given that they're already sanded and varnished... And
you're not allowing for cutting, fixing, caulking and decorating new
skirting ...

Thicker socks, there's another.

Cheers
Richard

On 5 Oct,
Jules Richardson wrote:

How much space are we talking about? It's surprising how small a space a
human can fit into. Insulating probably doesn't need a lot of clearance,
either - no messing with power tools, no need to swing a hammer etc.

Flat panel insulation needs a big hole in the floor to fit if there is no
depth, particularly if thick. Flexible insulation is generally an irritant, I
don't like getting too close.

I'm toying with pulling through spaceblanket (mineral wool (or is it
recycled bottles) wrapped in a plastic film, much less irritating than bare
stuff.--

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

[jgharston]

geraldthehamster wrote:
I can only see two ways to make the floor warmer, short of a detested
fitted carpet, with its propensity to collect dust,

There's this invention that's been around for, ooo, only about 150
years,
called a va-cuum clean-er.

JGH
--
People who want decking should be.

[Jules Richardson]

On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 00:21:10 +0100, me9 wrote:

On 5 Oct,
Jules Richardson wrote:

How much space are we talking about? It's surprising how small a space
a human can fit into. Insulating probably doesn't need a lot of
clearance, either - no messing with power tools, no need to swing a
hammer etc.

Flat panel insulation needs a big hole in the floor to fit if there is
no depth, particularly if thick. Flexible insulation is generally an
irritant, I don't like getting too close.

I'm toying with pulling through spaceblanket (mineral wool (or is it
recycled bottles) wrapped in a plastic film, much less irritating than
bare stuff.--

If only you can get in there, you could probably attach some form of fine
netting to the underside of the joists and then use blown-in insulation
to fill the gaps between the joists.

cheers

Jules

[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

On 6 Oct, 00:21, wrote:
On 5 Oct, *
* * *Jules Richardson wrote:

How much space are we talking about? It's surprising how small a space a
human can fit into. Insulating probably doesn't need a lot of clearance,
either - no messing with power tools, no need to swing a hammer etc.

Flat panel insulation needs a big hole in the floor to fit if there is no
depth, particularly if thick. Flexible insulation is generally an irritant, I
don't like getting too close.

I'm toying with pulling through spaceblanket (mineral wool (or is it
recycled bottles) wrapped in a plastic film, much less irritating than bare
stuff.--

--
* B Thumbs
* Change lycos to yahoo to reply

PROGRESS! There's a solution here, it just needs a bit of fine tuning.

To lay the access thing to bed - I haven't measured the depth of my
void (so to speak), but it's no more than 18 inches. Joists are 4x2 at
16 in. centres. Every couple of feet or so is a block dwarf wall which
supports the joists, and therefore runs parallel to the boards. You'd
have to do so much taking up to get in there, that you might as well
take up the whole floor. There is negligible height to work in, and I
don't do confined spaces.

Now then - yes, you could pull through spaceblanket, and you'd only
need to take up maybe four boards across the room. I like this.
However - without taking up numerous boards, how are you going to
eliminate sagging, and ensure that it's tight up between the joists?

In my own case, I would also need to feed each run of space blanket
through the four-inch gaps where the joists sit on the dwarf walls.
This might be doable with stick and bits of wire, but again, needs a
bit of finesse.

I can't help thinking that a very small child is part of the solution.
I never thought to fabricate any.

Cheers
Richard








Cheers
Richard

[Jules Richardson]

On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 01:54:46 -0700, geraldthehamster wrote:
PROGRESS! There's a solution here, it just needs a bit of fine tuning.

To lay the access thing to bed - I haven't measured the depth of my void
(so to speak), but it's no more than 18 inches.

If that's 18 inches below the joists, you have no problem. If it's 18
inches including joist depth then it's tight, but probably still do-able.
People often under-estimate how small a space they can squeeze into - but
I note your point about not liking small spaces :-)

We did a partial house rewire the other week and that was around 9" of
void below the joists - but the horizontal space was larger (around 4'
between supporting structure). The major pain with that one was the
discarded lumps of jagged concrete from some previous structure which
were littered around on the ground. Oh, and getting in's a lot easier
than getting back out :-)

re. spaceblankets, maybe you need a couple of metal straps holding the
blanket tight against the joists? Couple of nails/screws on the side
faces of the end joists would do it I'd think - if it's a big room then
it might still sag an inch or two in the middle, but I wouldn't expect
that to be a problem as the insulation layer would still be tight against
the joists at the ends, so heat would still be retained above the blanket
layer.

In my own case, I would also need to feed each run of space blanket
through the four-inch gaps where the joists sit on the dwarf walls. This
might be doable with stick and bits of wire, but again, needs a bit of
finesse.

Is the ground below reasonably flat? If so, small RC car to pull a rope
or two through, then tie the rope to the blanket to pull that through?

cheers

Jules

[geraldthehamster[_2_]]

On 6 Oct, 13:34, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 01:54:46 -0700, geraldthehamster wrote:
PROGRESS! There's a solution here, it just needs a bit of fine tuning.

To lay the access thing to bed - I haven't measured the depth of my void
(so to speak), but it's no more than 18 inches.

If that's 18 inches below the joists, you have no problem. If it's 18
inches including joist depth then it's tight, but probably still do-able.
People often under-estimate how small a space they can squeeze into - but
I note your point about not liking small spaces :-) *

We did a partial house rewire the other week and that was around 9" of
void below the joists - but the horizontal space was larger (around 4'
between supporting structure). The major pain with that one was the
discarded lumps of jagged concrete from some previous structure which
were littered around on the ground. Oh, and getting in's a lot easier
than getting back out :-)

re. spaceblankets, maybe you need a couple of metal straps holding the
blanket tight against the joists? Couple of nails/screws on the side
faces of the end joists would do it I'd think - if it's a big room then
it might still sag an inch or two in the middle, but I wouldn't expect
that to be a problem as the insulation layer would still be tight against
the joists at the ends, so heat would still be retained above the blanket
layer.

In my own case, I would also need to feed each run of space blanket
through the four-inch gaps where the joists sit on the dwarf walls. This
might be doable with stick and bits of wire, but again, needs a bit of
finesse.

Is the ground below reasonably flat? If so, small RC car to pull a rope
or two through, then tie the rope to the blanket to pull that through?

cheers

Jules

Thanks Jules. I was thinking along the lines of a couple of straps
running longitudinally each side of the batt of encapsulated space
blanket, which could be pulled tight and fixed at each end. If the
space blanket were quite thick, and slightly wider than the gap
between joists, that might pull it in nicely. I'd maybe aim to remove
a board every 3 feet or so, and do it in 3 foot chunks.

I'll measure the depth of the void tonight, just for interest. You
won't catch me trying to get in and out of it; besides which I'd need
to take up more adjacent boards to get in, than I would separate
boards to try the thing with the batts. And you're right about the
getting out; I'm not as limber as once I was, though I have lost a
fair amount of weight lately.

Cheers
Richard

Otherwise, I like idea of the the radio-controlled car ;-)

On 6 Oct,
geraldthehamster wrote:

On 6 Oct, 00:21, wrote:

Flat panel insulation needs a big hole in the floor to fit if there is no
depth, particularly if thick. Flexible insulation is generally an
irritant, I don't like getting too close.

I'm toying with pulling through spaceblanket (mineral wool (or is it
recycled bottles) wrapped in a plastic film, much less irritating than
bare stuff.--

PROGRESS! There's a solution here, it just needs a bit of fine tuning.

To lay the access thing to bed - I haven't measured the depth of my
void (so to speak), but it's no more than 18 inches. Joists are 4x2 at
16 in. centres. Every couple of feet or so is a block dwarf wall which
supports the joists, and therefore runs parallel to the boards. You'd
have to do so much taking up to get in there, that you might as well
take up the whole floor. There is negligible height to work in, and I
don't do confined spaces.

Now then - yes, you could pull through spaceblanket, and you'd only
need to take up maybe four boards across the room. I like this.
However - without taking up numerous boards, how are you going to
eliminate sagging, and ensure that it's tight up between the joists?

In my own case, I would also need to feed each run of space blanket
through the four-inch gaps where the joists sit on the dwarf walls.
This might be doable with stick and bits of wire, but again, needs a
bit of finesse.

I had thought of using tile lath to lay over te dwarf walls to support the
spaceblanket


I can't help thinking that a very small child is part of the solution.

I have used that method in the past.

I never thought to fabricate any.

Mine are now much larger than me.


--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember geraldthehamster
saying something like:

Oh come on, there must be a way we haven't thought of.

Easy - peasy.

Flood the underfloor space with wotter and on it float a carpet of
sticky foam pellets that will stick to the underside of the joists and
floorboards. Drain away the moisture, and there y'go.

It's so good I might just patent it - or I might not bother.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember geraldthehamster
saying something like:

I admit to being slightly disappointed that nobody seems to be better
at thinking outside the box than I am ;-)

You'd be surprised at the perceived difference to the tootsies that a
simple 12mm layer of Celotex topped with hardboard makes. Wouldn't cost
much to find out in one room.

[Jules Richardson]

On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 01:12:58 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember geraldthehamster
saying something like:

Oh come on, there must be a way we haven't thought of.

Easy - peasy.

Flood the underfloor space with wotter and on it float a carpet of
sticky foam pellets that will stick to the underside of the joists and
floorboards. Drain away the moisture, and there y'go.

:-) Oddly enough, I almost suggested the same approach, but with
expanding foam - but then I got to wondering if that stuff actually
floats in water before it's done its expanding and set, and I didn't have
any around to test with. Didn't want to give poor advice, so kept quiet.

;-)