Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
Disaster!
Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the instructions) Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub) I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain, so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a mistake? ... I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!) I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off, one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came off. Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile - except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive, where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now 1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so the squashing was uneven, but even so...! The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked. In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them (due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well pressed down into the first lot. What have I done wrong? I've found this thread elsewhere... http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371 ....which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles. They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job. Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it says in that thread?! Any help / advice greatly appreciated. I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it, but it doesn't look very hopeful now. Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
David Robinson wrote:
Disaster! Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the instructions) Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub) I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain, so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a mistake? ... I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!) I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off, one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came off. Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile - except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive, where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now 1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so the squashing was uneven, but even so...! The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked. In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them (due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well pressed down into the first lot. What have I done wrong? I've found this thread elsewhere... http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371 ...which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles. They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job. Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it says in that thread?! Any help / advice greatly appreciated. I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it, but it doesn't look very hopeful now. Cheers, David. my kitchen tiles are bigger than these, about 400 X 200, but they're not ceramic. Mine took over a week before they had set, and even then, I managed to pull a piece off underneath a window cill. Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva, best thing to do is get some air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on low (radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March) and put an oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few windows overnight too -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
David Robinson wrote:
Disaster! Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the instructions) Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub) I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain, so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a mistake? ... I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!) I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off, one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came off. Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile - except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive, where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now 1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so the squashing was uneven, but even so...! The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked. In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them (due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well pressed down into the first lot. What have I done wrong? I've found this thread elsewhere... http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371 ...which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles. They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job. Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it says in that thread?! Any help / advice greatly appreciated. I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it, but it doesn't look very hopeful now. Cheers, David. I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat. Leave the batten up for a couple of weeks. It takes a LOT of time to dry through the cracks. I have personally found that Evostik waterproof DOES set faster than simple air dying cements. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
Phil L wrote:
David Robinson wrote: Disaster! Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the instructions) Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub) I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain, so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a mistake? ... I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!) I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off, one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came off. Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile - except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive, where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now 1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so the squashing was uneven, but even so...! The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked. In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them (due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well pressed down into the first lot. What have I done wrong? I've found this thread elsewhere... http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371 ...which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles. They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job. Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it says in that thread?! Any help / advice greatly appreciated. I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it, but it doesn't look very hopeful now. Cheers, David. my kitchen tiles are bigger than these, about 400 X 200, but they're not ceramic. Mine took over a week before they had set, and even then, I managed to pull a piece off underneath a window cill. Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva, stupidest thing to do, ever. And the cause of the problem. best thing to do is get some air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on low (radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March) and put an oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few windows overnight too Best thing is not shove stupid PVA on new plaster when you are going to tile it. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Phil L wrote: Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva, stupidest thing to do, ever. And the cause of the problem. adhesive dries out immediately if the plaster is left raw, it's like drying mortar in the sun, it dries before the setting process has completed best thing to do is get some air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on low (radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March) and put an oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few windows overnight too Best thing is not shove stupid PVA on new plaster when you are going to tile it. What do you suggest instead? -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 4 Aug, 21:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat. blockwork, dot-n-dab, 12.5mm standard plasterboard, skimmed, left a couple of weeks, sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (NOT PVA!), then tiled a few days afterwards (primer dries in an hour) Leave the batten up for a couple of weeks. It takes a LOT of time to dry through the cracks. That might be a solution, but I can't imagine most people leave battens up for a couple of weeks. Typical advice seems to be to grout after a day or two! FWIW I've just tried to pull off the first tile, applied Thursday (i.e. 6 days ago), and managed to get it off just by pulling firmly at the exposed edge with my fingers. Adhesive behind this one is slightly damp (or dry-ish!) and crumbly, not solid at all. I have personally found that Evostik waterproof DOES set faster than simple air dying cements. I have Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES for the rest of it (i.e. the porcelain tiles + floor tiles) - I might just try it with these ceramics. As it's stuff you mix up, I don't suppose it needs air to dry. Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Phil L wrote: Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva, stupidest thing to do, ever. And the cause of the problem. adhesive dries out immediately if the plaster is left raw, it's like drying mortar in the sun, it dries before the setting process has completed Exactly,. Just what you want. Tiles grab fast and stick like ****. Remember nearly ALL wall adhesives don't SET, they DRY. They are not cement or plaster based, especially if ready mixed..how could they be? So let em dry ! Simples! best thing to do is get some air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on low (radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March) and put an oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few windows overnight too Best thing is not shove stupid PVA on new plaster when you are going to tile it. What do you suggest instead? Not using PVA. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
David Robinson wrote:
On 4 Aug, 21:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote: I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat. blockwork, dot-n-dab, 12.5mm standard plasterboard, skimmed, left a couple of weeks, sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (NOT PVA!), then tiled a few days afterwards (primer dries in an hour) see you got suckered as well. Why seal? Trade doesn't and I dont. My tiles stay up! Leave the batten up for a couple of weeks. It takes a LOT of time to dry through the cracks. That might be a solution, but I can't imagine most people leave battens up for a couple of weeks. Typical advice seems to be to grout after a day or two! Thats cos most people don't buy unnecessary sealers either. FWIW I've just tried to pull off the first tile, applied Thursday (i.e. 6 days ago), and managed to get it off just by pulling firmly at the exposed edge with my fingers. Adhesive behind this one is slightly damp (or dry-ish!) and crumbly, not solid at all. I have personally found that Evostik waterproof DOES set faster than simple air dying cements. I have Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES for the rest of it (i.e. the porcelain tiles + floor tiles) - I might just try it with these ceramics. As it's stuff you mix up, I don't suppose it needs air to dry. If its a mixed floor adhesive, its a bloody strong cement based one. It sounds like whoever sold you this lot unloaded all the stuff he couldn't sell cos it doesn't work, on you. :-( I tried several wall tile adhesives, most went damp and crimbly, and then dry and crumbly, and had all et problems you have, teh first one I tried that really worked was the Evostik. It looks sort of a like sticks like ****, and it was twice the price, but it just 'did what it said ion the tin' so I never went further than that. Life's to short. Floors all done with ardurit rapid and ardurit flexible.**ING exopensive, but wonderful. Grout is all Bal. Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
Tim Watts wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wibbled on Wednesday 04 August 2010 21:52 stupidest thing to do, ever. I agree WRT PVA - if water gets in there it may soften - but if the application isn't a shower it will be OK. If it is a shower, I suggest the OP gets some really good water resistant grout. PVA has it's uses, but it is rather overused, especially in applications where it is not suited. Mostly by thicko "builders" (no offense to the OP - but "professionals" ought to know better). However, BAL *tell* you to use SBR on polished new plaster prior to Greenstar which, whilst that will not fail, it will reduce the water dispersion from the adhesive and probably give rise to a similar issue. If its a setting cement, no problems You dont want the wall to dry the cement prematurely. But if its a DRYING cement, its disaster... I found no issues with Greenstar - though with 10cm tiles it's hard to go wrong. I did notice today though, that some Mapei flexible adhesive I am using for tiling onto ply is a rather different beast. Bugger all grab and takes ages to set, especially as it rained outside today (was under a tarp, but the air was humid). Glad I was doing those on a bench rather than with the ply in its final vertical fitting - I could see the latter being a tad of a bitch. And the cause of the problem. Nothing to do now but let the air sort it out - but it should in time - may take days or a week, but it will get there. Make sure it's had plenty of time before grouting. Agreed. It WILL dry as well as its ever likely to. If a cement grout is used that is mildly porous, that's enough to hold tiles in place. Cheers Tim BTW: I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain, so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a mistake? ... BAL Bluestar (very much like Greenstar) is 14 quid per massive tub from Screwfix. Even with delivery it's a fraction of the cost of the rest of the job. water mixed or pre-mixed? Topps Tiles sell Greenstar. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
David Robinson wrote: On 4 Aug, 21:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote: I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat. blockwork, dot-n-dab, 12.5mm standard plasterboard, skimmed, left a couple of weeks, sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (NOT PVA!), then tiled a few days afterwards (primer dries in an hour) see you got suckered as well. Why seal? Trade doesn't and I dont. My tiles stay up! I always PVA and my tiles stay up perfectly using Wickes bog standard ready mix tile goo. Ready to grout next day. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
David Robinson wrote:
I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!) I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off, one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came off. It happens. If they are not disturbed, then they'll stay in place, if you pull/push them, then you break the bond and they'll move/fall off. Thick tile cement can take a week to dry completely. Bigger tiles are more prone to it, as there is such a big area to dry out. Mostly, the moisture escapes around the edge of the tile. Alan. -- To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
Tim Watts wrote:
BAL Bluestar (very much like Greenstar) is 14 quid per massive tub from Screwfix. Even with delivery it's a fraction of the cost of the rest of the job. Topps Tiles sell Greenstar. I pay £6 for Greenstar from Topps. I use it for all walls/tiles, and have never had a problem with it. It pays to have a Trade Account! Alan. -- To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 05/08/2010 07:45, A.Lee wrote:
David wrote: I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!) I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off, one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came off. It happens. If they are not disturbed, then they'll stay in place, if you pull/push them, then you break the bond and they'll move/fall off. Thick tile cement can take a week to dry completely. Bigger tiles are more prone to it, as there is such a big area to dry out. Mostly, the moisture escapes around the edge of the tile. Alan. Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which allows air to pass between the ridges. Moving a tile with your finger tips should become virtually impossible within five minutes, by which time it is being held by suction. But if you did manage to move it, you would have broken the bond and, although it may not fall off there and then, it would never stick properly. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 5 Aug, 09:51, stuart noble wrote:
Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which allows air to pass between the ridges. eh? shurely the "slight twisting motion" as you press on firmly is going to flatten those ridges down into a full bed?? that's the point of the ridged applicator/trowel i.e. to achieve a consistent ideal depth of adhesive on the "ideal" flat wall.. Jim K |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 05/08/2010 11:03, Jim K wrote:
On 5 Aug, 09:51, stuart wrote: Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which allows air to pass between the ridges. eh? shurely the "slight twisting motion" as you press on firmly is going to flatten those ridges down into a full bed?? that's the point of the ridged applicator/trowel i.e. to achieve a consistent ideal depth of adhesive on the "ideal" flat wall.. Jim K But the twisting motion is only slight. If you take old tiles off you can usually still see the grooves in the adhesive. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:54:27 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
It *will* be OK. Even those that sound hollow when tapped? It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the wall? It may also be technique when offering the tile to the wall and setting it into position. Place it in the right place the finally push into position with a slight twisting motion, final small (much less than 1mm) tweaks onto the spacers (if using) without the twist. A tile should be firm onto the adhesive and be very reluctant to move after a very few minutes. -- Cheers Dave. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 5 Aug, 12:25, stuart noble wrote:
On 05/08/2010 11:03, Jim K wrote: On 5 Aug, 09:51, stuart wrote: Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which allows air to pass between the ridges. eh? shurely the "slight twisting motion" as you press on firmly is going to flatten those ridges down into a full bed?? that's the point of the ridged applicator/trowel i.e. to achieve a consistent ideal depth of adhesive on the "ideal" flat wall.. Jim K But the twisting motion is only slight. If you take old tiles off you can usually still see the grooves in the adhesive. sometimes maybe (I thought that was just crap tiling ;) I still don't think some air trapped between ridges is going to do anything to help the adhesive dry what bits of air there may be will soon be saturated and unable to move and take moisture elsewhere... Jim K |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the wall? It's a well known problem in the trade. I got shouted down here http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....90ce721ace4b2c Sigh. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 5 Aug, 22:34, Bolted wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the wall? It's a well known problem in the trade. I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20... Sigh. oh yeah ;)))))))) (don't let it take over your life...) Jim K |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 5 Aug, 22:34, Bolted wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the wall? It's a well known problem in the trade. I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20... Sigh. I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make "proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs. Even so, the advice seems overwhelming. I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of there. I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_ porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of that, and will see how I get on. He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate. Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!). The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last 6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed walls, without problems. It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again. For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by Seramiksan. My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES. I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck. Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 06/08/2010 10:14, David Robinson wrote:
On 5 Aug, 22:34, wrote: On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave wrote: It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the wall? It's a well known problem in the trade. I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20... Sigh. I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make "proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs. Even so, the advice seems overwhelming. I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of there. I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_ porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of that, and will see how I get on. He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate. Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!). The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last 6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed walls, without problems. It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again. For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by Seramiksan. My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES. I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck. Cheers, David. FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into. As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 6 Aug, 11:42, stuart noble wrote:
On 06/08/2010 10:14, David Robinson wrote: On 5 Aug, 22:34, wrote: On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave wrote: It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the wall? It's a well known problem in the trade. I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20... Sigh. I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make "proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs. Even so, the advice seems overwhelming. I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of there. I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_ porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of that, and will see how I get on. He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate. Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!). The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last 6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed walls, without problems. It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again. For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by Seramiksan. My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES. I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck. Cheers, David. FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into. As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up. Just to add I've never had a prob with tub adhesives either yet. Though not done more than 1/2 a dozen jobs I've never had a prob with tiles falling off unexpectedly. Used Wickes ready mix (red and blue flavours) on last two jobs respec. onto plastered and bare plasterboard surfaces - no priming, no PVA, large format 600X400 ceramics on one, 330X250 ceramics on latter - absolutely no problem 2 years later..... Cheers Jim K |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 6 Aug, 13:31, Jim K wrote:
On 6 Aug, 11:42, stuart noble wrote: FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into. As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up. Just to add I've never had a prob with tub adhesives either yet. Though not done more than 1/2 a dozen jobs I've never had a prob with tiles falling off unexpectedly. Used Wickes ready mix (red and blue flavours) on last two jobs respec. onto plastered and *bare plasterboard surfaces - no priming, no PVA, large format 600X400 ceramics on one, 330X250 ceramics on latter - absolutely no problem 2 years later..... Thanks. I suspect this would have dried out quickly if the plaster hadn't been primed. It does all seem to be firming up now (over a week later), though I wouldn't dare drill it yet. I used the proper notched trowel. Tiles at edges of window openings with exposed have dried quickest, despite exposed edge being packed solid. Windows are open, which probably helped. Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency it's supposed to be! Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
In message
, Bolted writes On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the wall? It's a well known problem in the trade. I got shouted down here http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....read/ecad20625 f165e8f/a190ce721ace4b2c?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=large+format+tile s+adhesive#a19 0ce721ace4b2c It's 'coz you're a 'kin google groupie -- geoff |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency it's supposed to be! That's partly why I use ready mixed. These adhesives should ideally be whipped up like a cake mix, which is beyond the home user. I think the consistency should be the same as a ready mixed filler or plaster from a tub i.e. you should be able to stand a screwdriver in it. Not a very scientific way to describe viscosity :-) |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 7 Aug, 09:36, stuart noble wrote:
Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency it's supposed to be! That's partly why I use ready mixed. These adhesives should ideally be whipped up like a cake mix, which is beyond the home user. I think the consistency should be the same as a ready mixed filler or plaster from a tub i.e. you should be able to stand a screwdriver in it. Not a very scientific way to describe viscosity :-) Seems cement based adhesives just are gritty by nature. It's not too bad mixing it - bucket + wizzy mixer thing powered by a drill, and it's not too much effort. Now I've figured out the right quantities it's much quicker - less trial + error! The tiles I put up last night are now stuck completely solid - you couldn't get them off without breaking them. Whereas the ones I put up over a week ago with the tub adhesive could still be prized off in one piece if you really wanted to. Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 7 Aug, 15:14, Tim Watts wrote:
I went by the manufacturer's data sheet and measured the recommended quantity into X kg of powder. It's more faff and the pro tiler I had for another job laughed, but if you're not sure what the result is supposed to look like, it's an easy way to get it right. The kg pre litre figure might be right, but in the absence of scales, I used the "2.5 parts powder to 1 part water", measured in measuring jugs. Didn't work. But 3 parts powder is pretty good. Could maybe do with even a fraction more. Anyway, the tiles are still staying up! And it's quite handy that it starts to set within an hour or so. Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap though. Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote: Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap though. how cheap's cheap? Jim K |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote:
On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson wrote: Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap though. how cheap's cheap? They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up. Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock... http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were discontinued 6 months ago at every other store! Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 9 Aug, 09:56, David Robinson
wrote: On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote: On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson wrote: Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap though. how cheap's cheap? They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up. Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock...http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were discontinued 6 months ago at every other store! Cheers, David. do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile?? Cheers Jim K |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 9 Aug, 15:57, Jim K wrote:
On 9 Aug, 09:56, David Robinson wrote: On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote: On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson wrote: Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap though. how cheap's cheap? They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up. Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock...http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were discontinued 6 months ago at every other store! Cheers, David. do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile?? A tiny bit, but I brushed most of it off, and they weren't "covered" anyway. It could have been another factor, but the new adhesive doesn't seem to mind! Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 9 Aug, 15:57, Jim K wrote:
On 9 Aug, 09:56, David Robinson wrote: On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote: On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson wrote: Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap though. how cheap's cheap? They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up. Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock...http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were discontinued 6 months ago at every other store! Cheers, David. do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile?? A tiny bit, but I brushed most of it off, and they weren't "covered" anyway. It could have been another factor, but the new adhesive doesn't seem to mind! Cheers, David. |
Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting
On 9 Aug, 16:55, David Robinson
wrote: [snip] Two weeks later, and I think I have some answers. Focus Memphis Tiles + UltraTile ProGrip HG adhesive + UltraTile Prime IT FP surface primer + plaster skim + plasterboard + dot-and-dab + blockwork = adhesive not setting properly, crumbly at best, still workable at worst; tiles easily prized off by putting 5mm of screw driver under one corner of tile and turning it! _All_ tiles come off easily in one piece. Focus Memphis Tiles + UltraTile ProGrip HG adhesive + UltraTile Prime IT FP surface primer (which soaked in without a trace) + bare plasterboard = adhesive set, trying to prize tiles off causes them to snap - only come off in pieces of a few cm I think we can assume that, with _some_ tiles at least, the first combination would have worked perfectly as well - after all, new plaster + primer + that adhesive is exactly what is recommended ("ideal") on the tub itself! So my adhesive failed because of the combination of the tiles I chose _and_ priming the wall. Between those two surfaces, it just couldn't set. Using Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES instead, I have no problems at all. Sets like a rock in a few hours. Not quite so convenient though - and once it's set, if you've missed cleaning a chunk off, it's a beggar to remove! I hope this info helps someone in the future - pulling the tiles off, scraping the crumbly adhesive off the wall (it doesn't stick to the tiles), scraping the last dusty bit off that's stuck to the primer (bringing the primer with it), re-priming the wall, and doing the whole ****** lot all over again, is a bit heart breaking. Glad it's just one wall!!! Cheers, David. |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:29 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter