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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

Disaster!

Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles
Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with
Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the
instructions)
Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub)

I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack
of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain,
so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be
good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a
mistake? ...

I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on
Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!)

I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that
wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off,
one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came
off.

Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite
soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile -
except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive,
where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the
tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the
tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now
1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so
the squashing was uneven, but even so...!

The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air
at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked.
In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them
(due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those
off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well
pressed down into the first lot.

What have I done wrong?

I've found this thread elsewhere...
http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371
....which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles.
They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap
diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this
tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for
them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for
which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job.

Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it
says in that thread?!

Any help / advice greatly appreciated.

I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it,
but it doesn't look very hopeful now.

Cheers,
David.
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

David Robinson wrote:
Disaster!

Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles
Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with
Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the
instructions)
Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub)

I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack
of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain,
so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be
good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a
mistake? ...

I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on
Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!)

I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that
wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off,
one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came
off.

Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite
soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile -
except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive,
where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the
tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the
tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now
1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so
the squashing was uneven, but even so...!

The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air
at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked.
In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them
(due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those
off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well
pressed down into the first lot.

What have I done wrong?

I've found this thread elsewhere...
http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371
...which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles.
They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap
diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this
tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for
them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for
which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job.

Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it
says in that thread?!

Any help / advice greatly appreciated.

I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it,
but it doesn't look very hopeful now.

Cheers,
David.


my kitchen tiles are bigger than these, about 400 X 200, but they're not
ceramic.
Mine took over a week before they had set, and even then, I managed to pull
a piece off underneath a window cill.

Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva, best thing to do is get some
air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on low
(radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March) and put an
oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few windows overnight too

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008


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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

David Robinson wrote:
Disaster!

Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles
Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with
Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the
instructions)
Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub)

I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack
of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain,
so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be
good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a
mistake? ...

I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on
Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!)

I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that
wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off,
one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came
off.

Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite
soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile -
except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive,
where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the
tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the
tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now
1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so
the squashing was uneven, but even so...!

The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air
at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked.
In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them
(due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those
off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well
pressed down into the first lot.

What have I done wrong?

I've found this thread elsewhere...
http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371
...which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles.
They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap
diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this
tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for
them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for
which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job.

Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it
says in that thread?!

Any help / advice greatly appreciated.

I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it,
but it doesn't look very hopeful now.

Cheers,
David.



I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat.

Leave the batten up for a couple of weeks. It takes a LOT of time to dry
through the cracks.

I have personally found that Evostik waterproof DOES set faster than
simple air dying cements.




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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

Phil L wrote:
David Robinson wrote:
Disaster!

Focus Seramiksan 33cm x 25cm ceramic tiles
Newly (a few weeks ago now) plastered walls, which I've sealed with
Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (mixed with water according to the
instructions)
Ultra Tile ProGrip HG (purple top tub)

I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack
of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain,
so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be
good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a
mistake? ...

I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on
Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!)

I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that
wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off,
one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came
off.

Behind the tile, the adhesive wasn't set at all! It was still quite
soft. It was stuck OK to the wall, but came completely off the tile -
except where I'd packed the corner of one tile with extra adhesive,
where it was even softer (not dried at all) and stuck a bit of the
tile. The adhesive on the wall has clearly been squashed down by the
tile - maybe squashed by 50-70% i.e. the original 5mm ridges are now
1-3mm. The wall isn't particularly flat (not the best plasterer) so
the squashing was uneven, but even so...!

The adhesive seems to only to have set where it's exposed to the air
at the edge of tiles. Many of the tiles sound "hollow" when knocked.
In fact it's only the ones where I added extra adhesive to pack them
(due to uneven wall) that _don't_ sound hollow - but when I took those
off to add that extra adhesive, I could see the tile had been well
pressed down into the first lot.

What have I done wrong?

I've found this thread elsewhere...
http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7371
...which sounds very similar - but mine are supposedly ceramic tiles.
They say they're ceramic. They cut nice and easily with a cheap
diamond wheel cutter. The man at the adhesive shop recommended this
tile adhesive for them - in fact he recommended this tile adhesive for
them only - the other tiles I've got are porcelain (supposedly), for
which he sold me a mix-it-yourself job.

Is it true that tubs of adhesive don't dry on A4 sized tiles, like it
says in that thread?!

Any help / advice greatly appreciated.

I'm supposed to be finishing this job by having a full weekend at it,
but it doesn't look very hopeful now.

Cheers,
David.


my kitchen tiles are bigger than these, about 400 X 200, but they're not
ceramic.
Mine took over a week before they had set, and even then, I managed to pull
a piece off underneath a window cill.

Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva,


stupidest thing to do, ever.

And the cause of the problem.


best thing to do is get some
air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on low
(radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March) and put an
oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few windows overnight too


Best thing is not shove stupid PVA on new plaster when you are going to
tile it.
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Phil L wrote:


Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva,


stupidest thing to do, ever.

And the cause of the problem.



adhesive dries out immediately if the plaster is left raw, it's like drying
mortar in the sun, it dries before the setting process has completed


best thing to do is get some
air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on
low (radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March)
and put an oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few
windows overnight too


Best thing is not shove stupid PVA on new plaster when you are going
to tile it.


What do you suggest instead?

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008




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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 4 Aug, 21:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat.


blockwork, dot-n-dab, 12.5mm standard plasterboard, skimmed, left a
couple of weeks, sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (NOT PVA!), then
tiled a few days afterwards (primer dries in an hour)

Leave the batten up for a couple of weeks. It takes a LOT of time to dry
through the cracks.


That might be a solution, but I can't imagine most people leave
battens up for a couple of weeks. Typical advice seems to be to grout
after a day or two!

FWIW I've just tried to pull off the first tile, applied Thursday
(i.e. 6 days ago), and managed to get it off just by pulling firmly at
the exposed edge with my fingers. Adhesive behind this one is slightly
damp (or dry-ish!) and crumbly, not solid at all.

I have personally found that Evostik waterproof DOES set faster than
simple air dying cements.


I have Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES for the rest of it (i.e. the
porcelain tiles + floor tiles) - I might just try it with these
ceramics. As it's stuff you mix up, I don't suppose it needs air to
dry.

Cheers,
David.
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Phil L wrote:


Same as yours, new plaster, sealed with pva,

stupidest thing to do, ever.

And the cause of the problem.



adhesive dries out immediately if the plaster is left raw, it's like drying
mortar in the sun, it dries before the setting process has completed


Exactly,. Just what you want. Tiles grab fast and stick like ****.

Remember nearly ALL wall adhesives don't SET, they DRY. They are not
cement or plaster based, especially if ready mixed..how could they be?

So let em dry !

Simples!


best thing to do is get some
air movement in there, I left one ring of the gas cooker burning on
low (radiator was removed for decoration purposes and it was March)
and put an oscilating fan on the floor, might want to open a few
windows overnight too

Best thing is not shove stupid PVA on new plaster when you are going
to tile it.


What do you suggest instead?

Not using PVA.

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David Robinson wrote:
On 4 Aug, 21:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat.


blockwork, dot-n-dab, 12.5mm standard plasterboard, skimmed, left a
couple of weeks, sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (NOT PVA!), then
tiled a few days afterwards (primer dries in an hour)


see you got suckered as well. Why seal?

Trade doesn't and I dont. My tiles stay up!


Leave the batten up for a couple of weeks. It takes a LOT of time to dry
through the cracks.


That might be a solution, but I can't imagine most people leave
battens up for a couple of weeks. Typical advice seems to be to grout
after a day or two!


Thats cos most people don't buy unnecessary sealers either.

FWIW I've just tried to pull off the first tile, applied Thursday
(i.e. 6 days ago), and managed to get it off just by pulling firmly at
the exposed edge with my fingers. Adhesive behind this one is slightly
damp (or dry-ish!) and crumbly, not solid at all.

I have personally found that Evostik waterproof DOES set faster than
simple air dying cements.


I have Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES for the rest of it (i.e. the
porcelain tiles + floor tiles) - I might just try it with these
ceramics. As it's stuff you mix up, I don't suppose it needs air to
dry.


If its a mixed floor adhesive, its a bloody strong cement based one.

It sounds like whoever sold you this lot unloaded all the stuff he
couldn't sell cos it doesn't work, on you.

:-(

I tried several wall tile adhesives, most went damp and crimbly, and
then dry and crumbly, and had all et problems you have, teh first one I
tried that really worked was the Evostik. It looks sort of a like sticks
like ****, and it was twice the price, but it just 'did what it said ion
the tin' so I never went further than that. Life's to short.

Floors all done with ardurit rapid and ardurit flexible.**ING
exopensive, but wonderful.

Grout is all Bal.





Cheers,
David.

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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

Tim Watts wrote:
The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Wednesday 04 August 2010 21:52


stupidest thing to do, ever.


I agree WRT PVA - if water gets in there it may soften - but if the
application isn't a shower it will be OK. If it is a shower, I suggest the
OP gets some really good water resistant grout.

PVA has it's uses, but it is rather overused, especially in applications
where it is not suited. Mostly by thicko "builders" (no offense to the OP -
but "professionals" ought to know better).

However, BAL *tell* you to use SBR on polished new plaster prior to
Greenstar which, whilst that will not fail, it will reduce the water
dispersion from the adhesive and probably give rise to a similar issue.


If its a setting cement, no problems You dont want the wall to dry the
cement prematurely.

But if its a DRYING cement, its disaster...


I found no issues with Greenstar - though with 10cm tiles it's hard to go
wrong.

I did notice today though, that some Mapei flexible adhesive I am using for
tiling onto ply is a rather different beast. Bugger all grab and takes ages
to set, especially as it rained outside today (was under a tarp, but the air
was humid). Glad I was doing those on a bench rather than with the ply in
its final vertical fitting - I could see the latter being a tad of a bitch.

And the cause of the problem.


Nothing to do now but let the air sort it out - but it should in time - may
take days or a week, but it will get there. Make sure it's had plenty of
time before grouting.


Agreed. It WILL dry as well as its ever likely to. If a cement grout is
used that is mildly porous, that's enough to hold tiles in place.


Cheers

Tim

BTW:

I looked at the "good stuff" (BAL and Mapei), but due to cost and lack
of local availability, for these tiles only (the others are porcelain,
so needed something better), I was advised the ProGrip HG would be
good enough to stick 30cm tiles to nice solid walls. Was this a
mistake? ...


BAL Bluestar (very much like Greenstar) is 14 quid per massive tub from
Screwfix. Even with delivery it's a fraction of the cost of the rest of the
job.


water mixed or pre-mixed?


Topps Tiles sell Greenstar.


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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
David Robinson wrote:
On 4 Aug, 21:51, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
I bet you have a waterproofed wall or summat.


blockwork, dot-n-dab, 12.5mm standard plasterboard, skimmed, left a
couple of weeks, sealed with Ultra Tile Prime IT FP (NOT PVA!), then
tiled a few days afterwards (primer dries in an hour)


see you got suckered as well. Why seal?

Trade doesn't and I dont. My tiles stay up!


I always PVA and my tiles stay up perfectly using Wickes bog standard ready
mix tile goo. Ready to grout next day.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk






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David Robinson wrote:

I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on
Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!)

I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that
wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off,
one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came
off.


It happens.
If they are not disturbed, then they'll stay in place, if you pull/push
them, then you break the bond and they'll move/fall off.
Thick tile cement can take a week to dry completely.

Bigger tiles are more prone to it, as there is such a big area to dry
out. Mostly, the moisture escapes around the edge of the tile.

Alan.
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Tim Watts wrote:


BAL Bluestar (very much like Greenstar) is 14 quid per massive tub from
Screwfix. Even with delivery it's a fraction of the cost of the rest of the
job.

Topps Tiles sell Greenstar.


I pay £6 for Greenstar from Topps. I use it for all walls/tiles, and
have never had a problem with it.
It pays to have a Trade Account!
Alan.
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On 05/08/2010 07:45, A.Lee wrote:
David wrote:

I started putting the tiles on last Thursday. I finished one wall on
Sunday (not doing it full time! + lots of cuts! + I'm not very fast!)

I went in tonight to remove the wooden batten at the bottom of that
wall, ready to start another one. When I pulled the wooden batten off,
one tile came off. The one next to it also seemed lose and easily came
off.


It happens.
If they are not disturbed, then they'll stay in place, if you pull/push
them, then you break the bond and they'll move/fall off.
Thick tile cement can take a week to dry completely.

Bigger tiles are more prone to it, as there is such a big area to dry
out. Mostly, the moisture escapes around the edge of the tile.

Alan.


Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of
other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due
to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which
allows air to pass between the ridges. Moving a tile with your finger
tips should become virtually impossible within five minutes, by which
time it is being held by suction. But if you did manage to move it, you
would have broken the bond and, although it may not fall off there and
then, it would never stick properly.
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On 5 Aug, 09:51, stuart noble wrote:

Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of
other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due
to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which


allows air to pass between the ridges.


eh? shurely the "slight twisting motion" as you press on firmly is
going to flatten those ridges down into a full bed?? that's the point
of the ridged applicator/trowel i.e. to achieve a consistent ideal
depth of adhesive on the "ideal" flat wall..

Jim K
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On 05/08/2010 11:03, Jim K wrote:
On 5 Aug, 09:51, stuart wrote:

Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of
other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due
to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which


allows air to pass between the ridges.


eh? shurely the "slight twisting motion" as you press on firmly is
going to flatten those ridges down into a full bed?? that's the point
of the ridged applicator/trowel i.e. to achieve a consistent ideal
depth of adhesive on the "ideal" flat wall..

Jim K


But the twisting motion is only slight. If you take old tiles off you
can usually still see the grooves in the adhesive.


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On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:54:27 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

It *will* be OK.


Even those that sound hollow when tapped?

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?

It may also be technique when offering the tile to the wall and
setting it into position. Place it in the right place the finally
push into position with a slight twisting motion, final small (much
less than 1mm) tweaks onto the spacers (if using) without the twist.
A tile should be firm onto the adhesive and be very reluctant to move
after a very few minutes.

--
Cheers
Dave.



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On 5 Aug, 12:25, stuart noble wrote:
On 05/08/2010 11:03, Jim K wrote:

On 5 Aug, 09:51, stuart wrote:


Tile adhesive sticks to virtually anything from the glazed surface of
other tiles to old lath and plaster finishes. Failures are usually due
to too much adhesive and/or not combing it with the spreader, which


allows air to pass between the ridges.


eh? shurely the "slight twisting motion" as you press on firmly is
going to flatten those ridges down into a full bed?? that's the point
of the ridged applicator/trowel i.e. to achieve a consistent ideal
depth of adhesive on the "ideal" flat wall..


Jim K


But the twisting motion is only slight. If you take old tiles off you
can usually still see the grooves in the adhesive.


sometimes maybe (I thought that was just crap tiling ;)

I still don't think some air trapped between ridges is going to do
anything to help the adhesive dry
what bits of air there may be will soon be saturated and unable to
move and take moisture elsewhere...

Jim K
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On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.

I got shouted down here
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....90ce721ace4b2c

Sigh.
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On 5 Aug, 22:34, Bolted wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.

I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20...

Sigh.


oh yeah ;))))))))

(don't let it take over your life...)

Jim K
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 5 Aug, 22:34, Bolted wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.

I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20...

Sigh.


I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice
is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as
large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be
because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make
"proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the
stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs.
Even so, the advice seems overwhelming.

I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not
much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of
there.

I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a
different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but
he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish
was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't
grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as
being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_
porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For
everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes
longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that
would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of
that, and will see how I get on.

He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would
send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times
out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate.

Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the
tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the
adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise
that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!).

The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most
pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last
6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed
walls, without problems.

It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again.

For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by
Seramiksan.

My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then
when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off
the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES.

I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it
seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my
mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck.

Cheers,
David.


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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 06/08/2010 10:14, David Robinson wrote:
On 5 Aug, 22:34, wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave
wrote:

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.

I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20...

Sigh.


I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice
is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as
large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be
because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make
"proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the
stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs.
Even so, the advice seems overwhelming.

I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not
much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of
there.

I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a
different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but
he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish
was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't
grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as
being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_
porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For
everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes
longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that
would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of
that, and will see how I get on.

He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would
send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times
out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate.

Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the
tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the
adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise
that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!).

The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most
pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last
6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed
walls, without problems.

It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again.

For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by
Seramiksan.

My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then
when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off
the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES.

I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it
seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my
mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck.

Cheers,
David.


FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement
bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those
buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into.

As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to
any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched
trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack
them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up.
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 6 Aug, 11:42, stuart noble wrote:
On 06/08/2010 10:14, David Robinson wrote:



On 5 Aug, 22:34, wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave
wrote:


It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.


I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20...


Sigh.


I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice
is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as
large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be
because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make
"proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the
stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs.
Even so, the advice seems overwhelming.


I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not
much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of
there.


I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a
different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but
he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish
was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't
grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as
being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_
porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For
everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes
longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that
would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of
that, and will see how I get on.


He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would
send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times
out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate.


Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the
tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the
adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise
that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!).


The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most
pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last
6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed
walls, without problems.


It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again.


For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by
Seramiksan.


My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then
when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off
the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES.


I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it
seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my
mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck.


Cheers,
David.


FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement
bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those
buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into.

As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to
any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched
trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack
them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up.


Just to add I've never had a prob with tub adhesives either yet.

Though not done more than 1/2 a dozen jobs I've never had a prob with
tiles falling off unexpectedly.

Used Wickes ready mix (red and blue flavours) on last two jobs respec.
onto plastered and bare plasterboard surfaces - no priming, no PVA,
large format 600X400 ceramics on one, 330X250 ceramics on latter -
absolutely no problem 2 years later.....

Cheers
Jim K
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 6 Aug, 13:31, Jim K wrote:
On 6 Aug, 11:42, stuart noble wrote:


FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement
bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those
buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into.


As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to
any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched
trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack
them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up.


Just to add I've never had a prob with tub adhesives either yet.

Though not done more than 1/2 a dozen jobs I've never had a prob with
tiles falling off unexpectedly.

Used Wickes ready mix (red and blue flavours) on last two jobs respec.
onto plastered and *bare plasterboard surfaces - no priming, no PVA,
large format 600X400 ceramics on one, 330X250 ceramics on latter -
absolutely no problem 2 years later.....


Thanks. I suspect this would have dried out quickly if the plaster
hadn't been primed.

It does all seem to be firming up now (over a week later), though I
wouldn't dare drill it yet. I used the proper notched trowel. Tiles at
edges of window openings with exposed have dried quickest, despite
exposed edge being packed solid. Windows are open, which probably
helped.

Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit
gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the
instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency
it's supposed to be!

Cheers,
David.
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

In message
,
Bolted writes
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.

I got shouted down here
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....read/ecad20625
f165e8f/a190ce721ace4b2c?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=large+format+tile s+adhesive#a19
0ce721ace4b2c

It's 'coz you're a 'kin google groupie


--
geoff
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Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting


Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit
gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the
instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency
it's supposed to be!


That's partly why I use ready mixed. These adhesives should ideally be
whipped up like a cake mix, which is beyond the home user.
I think the consistency should be the same as a ready mixed filler or
plaster from a tub i.e. you should be able to stand a screwdriver in it.
Not a very scientific way to describe viscosity :-)


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On 7 Aug, 09:36, stuart noble wrote:
Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit
gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the
instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency
it's supposed to be!


That's partly why I use ready mixed. These adhesives should ideally be
whipped up like a cake mix, which is beyond the home user.
I think the consistency should be the same as a ready mixed filler or
plaster from a tub i.e. you should be able to stand a screwdriver in it.
Not a very scientific way to describe viscosity :-)


Seems cement based adhesives just are gritty by nature.

It's not too bad mixing it - bucket + wizzy mixer thing powered by a
drill, and it's not too much effort. Now I've figured out the right
quantities it's much quicker - less trial + error!

The tiles I put up last night are now stuck completely solid - you
couldn't get them off without breaking them. Whereas the ones I put up
over a week ago with the tub adhesive could still be prized off in one
piece if you really wanted to.

Cheers,
David.
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On 7 Aug, 15:14, Tim Watts wrote:

I went by the manufacturer's data sheet and measured the recommended
quantity into X kg of powder. It's more faff and the pro tiler I had for
another job laughed, but if you're not sure what the result is supposed to
look like, it's an easy way to get it right.


The kg pre litre figure might be right, but in the absence of scales,
I used the "2.5 parts powder to 1 part water", measured in measuring
jugs. Didn't work. But 3 parts powder is pretty good. Could maybe do
with even a fraction more.

Anyway, the tiles are still staying up! And it's quite handy that it
starts to set within an hour or so.

Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.

Cheers,
David.
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On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:

Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?

Jim K
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On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote:
On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:

Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?


They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and
floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones
I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up.

Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock...
http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis

Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were
discontinued 6 months ago at every other store!

Cheers,
David.
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On 9 Aug, 09:56, David Robinson
wrote:
On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote:

On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:


Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?


They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and
floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones
I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up.

Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock...http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis

Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were
discontinued 6 months ago at every other store!

Cheers,
David.


do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if
your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile??

Cheers
Jim K


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On 9 Aug, 15:57, Jim K wrote:
On 9 Aug, 09:56, David Robinson
wrote:





On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote:


On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:


Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?


They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and
floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones
I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up.


Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock...http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis


Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were
discontinued 6 months ago at every other store!


Cheers,
David.


do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if
your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile??


A tiny bit, but I brushed most of it off, and they weren't "covered"
anyway. It could have been another factor, but the new adhesive
doesn't seem to mind!

Cheers,
David.
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On 9 Aug, 15:57, Jim K wrote:
On 9 Aug, 09:56, David Robinson
wrote:





On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote:


On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:


Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?


They cost me just under £7 per square metre. I think the wall and
floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones
I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up.


Focus website shows them £10 now, and out of stock...http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis


Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were
discontinued 6 months ago at every other store!


Cheers,
David.


do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if
your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile??


A tiny bit, but I brushed most of it off, and they weren't "covered"
anyway. It could have been another factor, but the new adhesive
doesn't seem to mind!

Cheers,
David.
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On 9 Aug, 16:55, David Robinson
wrote:

[snip]

Two weeks later, and I think I have some answers.

Focus Memphis Tiles
+ UltraTile ProGrip HG adhesive
+ UltraTile Prime IT FP surface primer
+ plaster skim
+ plasterboard
+ dot-and-dab
+ blockwork
= adhesive not setting properly, crumbly at best, still workable at
worst; tiles easily prized off by putting 5mm of screw driver under
one corner of tile and turning it! _All_ tiles come off easily in one
piece.

Focus Memphis Tiles
+ UltraTile ProGrip HG adhesive
+ UltraTile Prime IT FP surface primer (which soaked in without a
trace)
+ bare plasterboard
= adhesive set, trying to prize tiles off causes them to snap - only
come off in pieces of a few cm

I think we can assume that, with _some_ tiles at least, the first
combination would have worked perfectly as well - after all, new
plaster + primer + that adhesive is exactly what is recommended
("ideal") on the tub itself!


So my adhesive failed because of the combination of the tiles I chose
_and_ priming the wall. Between those two surfaces, it just couldn't
set.

Using Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES instead, I have no problems at all.
Sets like a rock in a few hours. Not quite so convenient though - and
once it's set, if you've missed cleaning a chunk off, it's a beggar to
remove!

I hope this info helps someone in the future - pulling the tiles off,
scraping the crumbly adhesive off the wall (it doesn't stick to the
tiles), scraping the last dusty bit off that's stuck to the primer
(bringing the primer with it), re-priming the wall, and doing the
whole ****** lot all over again, is a bit heart breaking. Glad it's
just one wall!!!

Cheers,
David.
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