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Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 6th 10, 11:42 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 4,911
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 06/08/2010 10:14, David Robinson wrote:
On 5 Aug, 22:34, wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave
wrote:

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.

I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20...

Sigh.


I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice
is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as
large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be
because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make
"proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the
stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs.
Even so, the advice seems overwhelming.

I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not
much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of
there.

I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a
different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but
he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish
was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't
grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as
being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_
porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For
everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes
longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that
would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of
that, and will see how I get on.

He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would
send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times
out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate.

Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the
tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the
adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise
that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!).

The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most
pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last
6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed
walls, without problems.

It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again.

For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by
Seramiksan.

My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then
when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off
the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES.

I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it
seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my
mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck.

Cheers,
David.


FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement
bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those
buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into.

As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to
any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched
trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack
them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up.
Ads
  #22  
Old August 6th 10, 01:31 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 511
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 6 Aug, 11:42, stuart noble wrote:
On 06/08/2010 10:14, David Robinson wrote:



On 5 Aug, 22:34, wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave
wrote:


It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.


I got shouted down herehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_thread/thread/ecad20...


Sigh.


I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice
is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as
large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be
because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make
"proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the
stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs.
Even so, the advice seems overwhelming.


I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not
much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of
there.


I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a
different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but
he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish
was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't
grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as
being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_
porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For
everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes
longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that
would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of
that, and will see how I get on.


He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would
send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times
out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate.


Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the
tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the
adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise
that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!).


The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most
pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last
6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed
walls, without problems.


It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again.


For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by
Seramiksan.


My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then
when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off
the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES.


I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it
seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my
mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck.


Cheers,
David.


FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement
bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those
buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into.

As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to
any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched
trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack
them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up.


Just to add I've never had a prob with tub adhesives either yet.

Though not done more than 1/2 a dozen jobs I've never had a prob with
tiles falling off unexpectedly.

Used Wickes ready mix (red and blue flavours) on last two jobs respec.
onto plastered and bare plasterboard surfaces - no priming, no PVA,
large format 600X400 ceramics on one, 330X250 ceramics on latter -
absolutely no problem 2 years later.....

Cheers
Jim K
  #23  
Old August 6th 10, 10:40 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 234
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 6 Aug, 13:31, Jim K wrote:
On 6 Aug, 11:42, stuart noble wrote:


FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement
bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those
buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into.


As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to
any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched
trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack
them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up.


Just to add I've never had a prob with tub adhesives either yet.

Though not done more than 1/2 a dozen jobs I've never had a prob with
tiles falling off unexpectedly.

Used Wickes ready mix (red and blue flavours) on last two jobs respec.
onto plastered and *bare plasterboard surfaces - no priming, no PVA,
large format 600X400 ceramics on one, 330X250 ceramics on latter -
absolutely no problem 2 years later.....


Thanks. I suspect this would have dried out quickly if the plaster
hadn't been primed.

It does all seem to be firming up now (over a week later), though I
wouldn't dare drill it yet. I used the proper notched trowel. Tiles at
edges of window openings with exposed have dried quickest, despite
exposed edge being packed solid. Windows are open, which probably
helped.

Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit
gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the
instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency
it's supposed to be!

Cheers,
David.
  #24  
Old August 6th 10, 11:46 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,823
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

In message
,
Bolted writes
On 5 Aug, 13:22, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

It is a bit odd that the adhesive hasn't set, is that sealer rather
to effective in not letting the moisture in the adhesive into the
wall?


It's a well known problem in the trade.

I got shouted down here
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....read/ecad20625
f165e8f/a190ce721ace4b2c?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=large+format+tile s+adhesive#a19
0ce721ace4b2c

It's 'coz you're a 'kin google groupie


--
geoff
  #25  
Old August 7th 10, 09:36 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,911
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting


Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit
gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the
instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency
it's supposed to be!


That's partly why I use ready mixed. These adhesives should ideally be
whipped up like a cake mix, which is beyond the home user.
I think the consistency should be the same as a ready mixed filler or
plaster from a tub i.e. you should be able to stand a screwdriver in it.
Not a very scientific way to describe viscosity :-)
  #26  
Old August 7th 10, 01:30 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 234
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 7 Aug, 09:36, stuart noble wrote:
Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit
gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the
instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency
it's supposed to be!


That's partly why I use ready mixed. These adhesives should ideally be
whipped up like a cake mix, which is beyond the home user.
I think the consistency should be the same as a ready mixed filler or
plaster from a tub i.e. you should be able to stand a screwdriver in it.
Not a very scientific way to describe viscosity :-)


Seems cement based adhesives just are gritty by nature.

It's not too bad mixing it - bucket + wizzy mixer thing powered by a
drill, and it's not too much effort. Now I've figured out the right
quantities it's much quicker - less trial + error!

The tiles I put up last night are now stuck completely solid - you
couldn't get them off without breaking them. Whereas the ones I put up
over a week ago with the tub adhesive could still be prized off in one
piece if you really wanted to.

Cheers,
David.
  #27  
Old August 7th 10, 08:16 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 234
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 7 Aug, 15:14, Tim Watts wrote:

I went by the manufacturer's data sheet and measured the recommended
quantity into X kg of powder. It's more faff and the pro tiler I had for
another job laughed, but if you're not sure what the result is supposed to
look like, it's an easy way to get it right.


The kg pre litre figure might be right, but in the absence of scales,
I used the "2.5 parts powder to 1 part water", measured in measuring
jugs. Didn't work. But 3 parts powder is pretty good. Could maybe do
with even a fraction more.

Anyway, the tiles are still staying up! And it's quite handy that it
starts to set within an hour or so.

Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.

Cheers,
David.
  #28  
Old August 7th 10, 09:14 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 511
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:

Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?

Jim K
  #29  
Old August 9th 10, 09:56 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 234
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote:
On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:

Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?


They cost me just under 7 per square metre. I think the wall and
floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones
I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up.

Focus website shows them 10 now, and out of stock...
http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis

Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were
discontinued 6 months ago at every other store!

Cheers,
David.
  #30  
Old August 9th 10, 03:57 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 511
Default Tiles falling off wall, adhesive not setting

On 9 Aug, 09:56, David Robinson
wrote:
On 7 Aug, 21:14, Jim K wrote:

On 7 Aug, 20:16, David Robinson
wrote:


Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap
though.


how cheap's cheap?


They cost me just under 7 per square metre. I think the wall and
floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones
I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up.

Focus website shows them 10 now, and out of stock...http://www.focusdiy.co.uk/dispatcher?search=memphis

Doesn't surprise me - our local Focus often sells things that were
discontinued 6 months ago at every other store!

Cheers,
David.


do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if
your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile??

Cheers
Jim K
 




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