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Paul[_28_] December 27th 09 11:52 AM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
We are in the course of some fairly substantial building works. At the
start of November, we had some drains installed across the lounge
floor. Trenches were dug, drains installed, the trench filled with
shingle, and then concrete added on top of that to a depth of about
100mm below floor level. This was then blackjacked and another layer
of cement added to build it up to floor level.

Not knowing any better, we covered this with carpet, and a week ago
carpet layers were unable to lay a new carpet because it was
(unsurprisingly) too damp. Since then we have, of course, exposed it,
but it has not dried as quickly as expected.

If we have an ordinary fan play across it all night, it appears to
dry. But when the fan is removed, within 60 minutes it is damp again.
Oddly (or perhaps not), it is bone dry at the ends. Last night we
dried it with a hair drier, and the damp doesn't appear to have come
back so fast.

It is as if we can dry the top (say) 1mm, and then the damp comes back
from underneath.

If left to its own devices, how long will it take to dry please, and
how can we speed it up substantially please?

Many thanks,

Paul.

Phil L[_2_] December 27th 09 01:09 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Paul wrote:
We are in the course of some fairly substantial building works. At the
start of November, we had some drains installed across the lounge
floor. Trenches were dug, drains installed, the trench filled with
shingle, and then concrete added on top of that to a depth of about
100mm below floor level. This was then blackjacked and another layer
of cement added to build it up to floor level.

Not knowing any better, we covered this with carpet, and a week ago
carpet layers were unable to lay a new carpet because it was
(unsurprisingly) too damp. Since then we have, of course, exposed it,
but it has not dried as quickly as expected.

If we have an ordinary fan play across it all night, it appears to
dry. But when the fan is removed, within 60 minutes it is damp again.
Oddly (or perhaps not), it is bone dry at the ends. Last night we
dried it with a hair drier, and the damp doesn't appear to have come
back so fast.

It is as if we can dry the top (say) 1mm, and then the damp comes back
from underneath.

If left to its own devices, how long will it take to dry please, and
how can we speed it up substantially please?

Many thanks,

Paul.


What do you mean by 'blackjacked'?

The concrete below is still wet, and will remain wet for a long time,
probably permanently, if you haven't installed a plastic membrane between
the top 100mm and this concrete, it will never dry out, as the moisture in
the ground will continue to soak into the concrete and up through the top
screed

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008



Bruce[_8_] December 27th 09 01:19 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 02:52:04 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:
We are in the course of some fairly substantial building works. At the
start of November, we had some drains installed across the lounge
floor. Trenches were dug, drains installed, the trench filled with
shingle, and then concrete added on top of that to a depth of about
100mm below floor level. This was then blackjacked and another layer
of cement added to build it up to floor level.

Not knowing any better, we covered this with carpet, and a week ago
carpet layers were unable to lay a new carpet because it was
(unsurprisingly) too damp. Since then we have, of course, exposed it,
but it has not dried as quickly as expected.

If we have an ordinary fan play across it all night, it appears to
dry. But when the fan is removed, within 60 minutes it is damp again.
Oddly (or perhaps not), it is bone dry at the ends. Last night we
dried it with a hair drier, and the damp doesn't appear to have come
back so fast.

It is as if we can dry the top (say) 1mm, and then the damp comes back
from underneath.

If left to its own devices, how long will it take to dry please, and
how can we speed it up substantially please?



This sounds like it has nothing to do with concrete drying, or curing
(they are two different things). Rather, it sounds like the builder
had breached the damp proof membrane (DPM) under your ground floor
slab and has not done anything to remedy the breach, merely filled the
hole with some gravel (which allows water to flow unhindered) and
covered up the job with some concrete. It isn't going to dry out.

You have damp rising from below and around the new drains that were
installed. The damp is rising because you no longer have a competent
damp proof membrane (DPM) since it was breached by digging the
trenches for the pipes. Unless and until measures are taken to remedy
the breach(es), there will always be a damp problem.

It is unusual, to say the least, to run drains underneath a lounge
floor. Who designed the installation? Was there an architect or
structural engineer involved? If so, they should be your first point
of contact.

If this was something just done by a builder - with no involvement of
a construction professional - then you should contact the builder.


Paul[_28_] December 27th 09 01:32 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Thanks both. Blackjack is a tar-like bitumen that I assume acts as a
waterproof barrier between the two layers of concrete. To be fair, the
two ends of the run are dry, and where it wasn't covered with carpet
it is now dry, so I assumed that his method worked OK, and it was just
concrete under the carpet that was not dry as it was covered.

The original plans had drains going around the house, but this would
have meant the gradient was to shallow as the run was too long. In
order to do what we wanted, they had to go across the lounge (and this
was with the approval of the Building Inspector).

Rod December 27th 09 02:08 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
On 27/12/2009 12:32, Paul wrote:
Thanks both. Blackjack is a tar-like bitumen that I assume acts as a
waterproof barrier between the two layers of concrete. To be fair, the
two ends of the run are dry, and where it wasn't covered with carpet
it is now dry, so I assumed that his method worked OK, and it was just
concrete under the carpet that was not dry as it was covered.

The original plans had drains going around the house, but this would
have meant the gradient was to shallow as the run was too long. In
order to do what we wanted, they had to go across the lounge (and this
was with the approval of the Building Inspector).


Many years ago my mother had a small extension built and the floor
construction called for something similar to Blackjack. The lousy
builders tried to get away with a single coat - spec. called for two
layers with sanding between them. Complaint got second layer applied.

Did you check precisely what they did?

--
Rod

Paul[_28_] December 27th 09 02:24 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Hi Rod, no I didn't check as I am not a builder and I wasn't watching
- I only saw the finished result.

What I am trying to get a feel for here is how long a 100mm depth of
concrete inside should take to dry indoors. If it takes longer than it
should, there is a problem, but I am not sure I have a problem right
now. That is what I need to find out before I have him dig it all up
again.




Bob Minchin[_3_] December 27th 09 02:39 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Paul wrote:
Hi Rod, no I didn't check as I am not a builder and I wasn't watching
- I only saw the finished result.

What I am trying to get a feel for here is how long a 100mm depth of
concrete inside should take to dry indoors. If it takes longer than it
should, there is a problem, but I am not sure I have a problem right
now. That is what I need to find out before I have him dig it all up
again.



You need to be sure that the damproof course is working before laying
the carpet if I understand you correctly?

One way to do this is to lay a sheet of dry newspaper on the concrete
and cover it with a slightly larger sheet of polythene and press down
the edges e.g. four pieces of wood or similar. Each day, take up the
polythene and see if the paper is still dry. If it is damp/limp/tears
easily, then put in a fresh piece under the polythene ideally in a
different place for another day and repeat until the paper is reliable
left dry. only then consider laying carpet.

If water is still coming out of the concrete for whatever reason you
will need to ventilate the room.

I had read of drying/curing times of 1 week per 1" quoted but this has
been more about reach full strength than readiness for carpeting.

hth

Bob


Bruce[_8_] December 27th 09 02:43 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 04:32:11 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

Thanks both. Blackjack is a tar-like bitumen that I assume acts as a
waterproof barrier between the two layers of concrete.



The problem is, it doesn't connect with the breached membrane to
provide a replacement continuous damp proof membrane.


To be fair, the
two ends of the run are dry, and where it wasn't covered with carpet
it is now dry, so I assumed that his method worked OK, and it was just
concrete under the carpet that was not dry as it was covered.



They are dry because the rising moisture is ventilated, whereas under
the carpet ...


The original plans had drains going around the house, but this would
have meant the gradient was to shallow as the run was too long. In
order to do what we wanted, they had to go across the lounge (and this
was with the approval of the Building Inspector).



The approval of the Building Inspector would have depended on
effective measures being taken to provide effective damp proofing that
you don't appear to have. Did the Building Inspector personally
witness the installation of the drains and any attempt at providing
effective damp proofing? No, I thought not.

The lesson to be learned here is that any work that breaches a damp
proof membrane should include carefully designed and installed
measures to ensure the continuity of that damp proof membrane in the
finished job. The word "ensure" implies that the work should be
supervised by a construction professional, especially the critical
elements of the work that involve re-establishing the damp-proofing by
effectively connecting any new damp proof membrane to the existing.

No doubt several people on here (the usual suspects) will froth at the
mouth at the thought of spending money to employ a professional -
usually an architect or structural engineer - to supervise the work.
However, your experience is a prime example of why saving a relatively
small amount of money by placing your complete trust in a builder is
perhaps not the most sensible option.

It might be OK, if only builders could be more easily held to account,
and therefore tended to be competent. However, the fact is that there
are very, very few cases where builders have been successfully sued by
property owners for the cost of putting right their incompetent work.
So the incompetence continues. And ever more property owners are
faced with paying the cost of having the work done again to the
standard it should have been done to in the first place.


The Medway Handyman December 27th 09 02:45 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Paul wrote:
Hi Rod, no I didn't check as I am not a builder and I wasn't watching
- I only saw the finished result.

What I am trying to get a feel for here is how long a 100mm depth of
concrete inside should take to dry indoors. If it takes longer than it
should, there is a problem, but I am not sure I have a problem right
now. That is what I need to find out before I have him dig it all up
again.


Hire a dehum for a week which should dry it out, then see if the damp come
back.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Paul[_28_] December 27th 09 03:13 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Hi Bruce, thanks for your comprehensive reply.

I have no reason to think the builder is incompetent, in fact as
builders go I think he is very competent. I also do not think there
was actually a DPC under the existing (very old) concrete floor. If
rising damp was the problem, then we would be seeing signs of dampness
on the existing floor by now, I am sure. So I am reasonably confident
that we only need to wait until the 100mm of concrete dries (which it
has not been allowed to do), which is why I am trying to get an answer
to this question specifically. If and when it does not appear to be
drying properly, then we will have to look at what he has done.


cynic December 27th 09 04:29 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
On 27 Dec, 10:52, Paul wrote:
We are in the course of some fairly substantial building works. At the
start of November, we had some drains installed across the lounge
floor. Trenches were dug, drains installed, the trench filled with
shingle, and then concrete added on top of that to a depth of about
100mm below floor level. This was then blackjacked and another layer
of cement added to build it up to floor level.

Not knowing any better, we covered this with carpet, and a week ago
carpet layers were unable to lay a new carpet because it was
(unsurprisingly) too damp. Since then we have, of course, exposed it,
but it has not dried as quickly as expected.

If we have an ordinary fan play across it all night, it appears to
dry. But when the fan is removed, within 60 minutes it is damp again.
Oddly (or perhaps not), it is bone dry at the ends. Last night we
dried it with a hair drier, and the damp doesn't appear to have come
back so fast.

It is as if we can dry the top (say) 1mm, and then the damp comes back
from underneath.

If left to its own devices, how long will it take to dry please, and
how can we speed it up substantially please?

Many thanks,

Paul.


How much water was used in the mix? I would not expect such a long
drying out time especially if the new bit is in contact with old dry
concrete.
You may have a leak in the new drain or perhaps surface water ingress
from outdoors along the run of the trench.
Give it a couple of weeks exposed with normal air movement and
temperature and if the problem remains its time to start opening up
at
the worst part to look for water.

Bruce[_8_] December 27th 09 06:06 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 06:13:35 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:
Hi Bruce, thanks for your comprehensive reply.



You're welcome. I am sorry that I can offer very little comfort.


I have no reason to think the builder is incompetent, in fact as
builders go I think he is very competent.



If you have a competent, reputable builder, it is to be hoped that the
firm will want to retain their good reputation and put this work right
for you at no cost.


I also do not think there
was actually a DPC under the existing (very old) concrete floor.



I am surprised that neither you nor the builder have established this.


If rising damp was the problem, then we would be seeing signs of dampness
on the existing floor by now, I am sure. So I am reasonably confident
that we only need to wait until the 100mm of concrete dries (which it
has not been allowed to do), which is why I am trying to get an answer
to this question specifically. If and when it does not appear to be
drying properly, then we will have to look at what he has done.



Concrete fully cures (by hydration of the cement) typically in four to
six weeks. Only in conditions of extreme cold would it take any
longer. All the water that was in the original concrete mix reacts
chemically with the cement and, by the end of that period, the
concrete will not shed any moisture.

That means that any moisture you are seeing now is almost certainly
coming up from underneath, either from the ground or from leaks in the
pipes themselves.

There is another possibility, that the gravel surrounding the drain
pipes is acting as a conduit for water entering from outside the
house. Pipe surrounds using pea gravel can be very frustrating
because the gravel quickly transfers water from the smallest leak over
the whole length of any trench.

I recall one project where a pipe coupling failed and the only sign of
any leak was water gushing out of the pea gravel pipe surround some
300 metres away. It took a lot of excavating to find the leak, which
was massive, with the pipe being 600 mm in diameter, running at 4 bar
pressure and unable to be turned off for more than a couple of hours.
That's all the time the repair took to complete, but it took several
days to locate the leak. :-(


Paul[_28_] December 27th 09 07:07 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
OK, thanks for the answers, if it dries (which it now appears to be
doing over 50% of the area), all well and good. If it doesn't, he will
be digging it up again. Watch this space....


The Natural Philosopher[_2_] December 27th 09 07:46 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Paul wrote:
Thanks both. Blackjack is a tar-like bitumen that I assume acts as a
waterproof barrier between the two layers of concrete. To be fair, the
two ends of the run are dry, and where it wasn't covered with carpet
it is now dry, so I assumed that his method worked OK, and it was just
concrete under the carpet that was not dry as it was covered.

6-8 weeks is normal in these conditions less if you heat it.

Juts be patient and leave the carpet up for now.

Tim W[_2_] December 28th 09 12:45 AM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Paul
wibbled on Sunday 27 December 2009 10:52

We are in the course of some fairly substantial building works. At the
start of November, we had some drains installed across the lounge
floor. Trenches were dug, drains installed, the trench filled with
shingle, and then concrete added on top of that to a depth of about
100mm below floor level. This was then blackjacked and another layer
of cement added to build it up to floor level.

Not knowing any better, we covered this with carpet, and a week ago
carpet layers were unable to lay a new carpet because it was
(unsurprisingly) too damp. Since then we have, of course, exposed it,
but it has not dried as quickly as expected.

If we have an ordinary fan play across it all night, it appears to
dry. But when the fan is removed, within 60 minutes it is damp again.
Oddly (or perhaps not), it is bone dry at the ends. Last night we
dried it with a hair drier, and the damp doesn't appear to have come
back so fast.

It is as if we can dry the top (say) 1mm, and then the damp comes back
from underneath.

If left to its own devices, how long will it take to dry please, and
how can we speed it up substantially please?

Many thanks,

Paul.


On top of what others have said, concrete dries out about 1" per week in
good warm summer conditions (jn a shady part of the house) by my observation
of watching 4" go off.

This time of year it may take a considerably longer time if drying is
unaided. Dehumidifier would probably be best bet.

Then establish if there is a damp problem due to poor or missing DPM
construction.

If so, I would simply insist the original builder fixes this.

I've had similar works done, where there was no substantive DPM in the house
in that area (it varies room by room in the limited areas where I have made
holes in the floor). Other places are blackjacked.

In one pair of rooms I finished with an SBR modified screed and that's seems
a good enough vapour block for my needs.

In another room where I wasn't rescreeding, I applied an epoxy 2 part DPM to
the surface of the screed (F Ball F75) then primed with Stopgap P131 and
finished with 3mm of Stopgap 300 HD levelling compound (required as the F75
is not a wearing layer). That worked.

It's not cheap but it's not that expensive for something that is
comparitively labour unintensive. You personally could do a 20m2 room single
handed with a little mental preparation. Laying 3mm of Stopgap 300 is a 1
person job for upto 5-10m2 and 2 person (just) for 20m2. It's another option
if digging holes in the floor isn't an option.


--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...


Paul[_28_] January 1st 10 05:23 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Well just after my last post I had a fan heater play on the area, and
surprise surprise, it went bone dry. It was still dry the next
morning. And despite all the rain, is still completely dry five days
later.

So I suspect that it had mainly dried despite the carpet covering, and
the carpet had drawn the moisture up and heating the surface was
enough to get rid of the last of it. Otherwise I am sure we would have
started to see patches of damp again now.

Thanks for all the input.

Tim W[_2_] January 1st 10 08:42 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
Paul
wibbled on Friday 01 January 2010 16:23

Well just after my last post I had a fan heater play on the area, and
surprise surprise, it went bone dry. It was still dry the next
morning. And despite all the rain, is still completely dry five days
later.

So I suspect that it had mainly dried despite the carpet covering, and
the carpet had drawn the moisture up and heating the surface was
enough to get rid of the last of it. Otherwise I am sure we would have
started to see patches of damp again now.

Thanks for all the input.


The final test would be the taping some polythene over it that was mentioned
a while back. If that doesn't accumulate moisture after a few more days, I'd
say teh job's a good 'un. But what you've observed sounds encouraging.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...


Paul[_28_] January 2nd 10 04:18 PM

How long does concrete take to dry?
 
On Jan 1, 7:42*pm, Tim W wrote:
Paul
* wibbled on Friday 01 January 2010 16:23

Well just after my last post I had a fan heater play on the area, and
surprise surprise, it went bone dry. It was still dry the next
morning. And despite all the rain, is still completely dry five days
later.


So I suspect that it had mainly dried despite the carpet covering, and
the carpet had drawn the moisture up and heating the surface was
enough to get rid of the last of it. Otherwise I am sure we would have
started to see patches of damp again now.


Thanks for all the input.


The final test would be the taping some polythene over it that was mentioned
a while back. If that doesn't accumulate moisture after a few more days, I'd
say teh job's a good 'un. But what you've observed sounds encouraging.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...


Yes, Tim, good idea


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