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Default condensation from tin roof

This cold weather has really shown up a problem with an unheated converted
agricultural implement shed. The building is used to store generators,
lights and small tools and has had a plasterboard ceiling added, to stop
dust and bird crap spoiling the kit.

The gable ends are ventilated and the roof is simple 4 by 2 rafters with
corrugated iron, the corrugations vent at the eaves and the ridge capping.

This roof is plainly a good radiator on cold nights and vapour from ambient
air is condensing, and sometimes freezing, on the inside then dripping onto
the plasterboard below.

I'm considering stapling tyvek in between the rafters or even full length
under them but worry about the effect this will have on old untreated roof
timbers?

AJH
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Default condensation from tin roof

andrew wrote:
This roof is plainly a good radiator on cold nights and vapour from ambient
air is condensing, and sometimes freezing, on the inside then dripping onto
the plasterboard below.


You could simply increase the ventilation in the roof space above the
plasterboard just as much as is needed to stop the condensation.

But if you want to keep the area beneath the plasterboard ceiling
"warm", in comparison to the space between the plasterboard and the tin
roof above, then consider adding a strong thermal barrier against the
ceiling. (And this may possibly stop daylight warmth escaping from the
tool area into the roof-space, so that you then won't have to increase
the ventilation up there.)

Good luck.

Eddy.

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Eddy wrote:

You could simply increase the ventilation in the roof space above the
plasterboard just as much as is needed to stop the condensation.


here is good ventilation as the gable ends have the equivalent of 4 air
bricks in each end and the eaves and ridge have the area under the
corrugations. we have a lean to adjacent which is open fronted with no
ceiling and the condensation is visible on the inside of the roof.

But if you want to keep the area beneath the plasterboard ceiling
"warm", in comparison to the space between the plasterboard and the tin
roof above, then consider adding a strong thermal barrier against the
ceiling. Â*(And this may possibly stop daylight warmth escaping from the
tool area into the roof-space, so that you then won't have to increase
the ventilation up there.)


In anticipation of wishing to warm the area when maintenance is done I did
put 100mm fibreglass insulation between the joists above the plasterboard
when it was fitted in March and it is this that is getting wet from the
drips.

AJH

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Default condensation from tin roof

andrew wrote:
This cold weather has really shown up a problem with an unheated
converted agricultural implement shed. The building is used to store
generators, lights and small tools and has had a plasterboard ceiling
added, to stop dust and bird crap spoiling the kit.

The gable ends are ventilated and the roof is simple 4 by 2 rafters
with corrugated iron, the corrugations vent at the eaves and the
ridge capping.

This roof is plainly a good radiator on cold nights and vapour from
ambient air is condensing, and sometimes freezing, on the inside then
dripping onto the plasterboard below.

I'm considering stapling tyvek in between the rafters or even full
length under them but worry about the effect this will have on old
untreated roof timbers?

AJH


Not sure what tyvek is but it sounds expensive.
Why not use normal breathable roofing felt? - it's cheap and can be stapled
to the joists just the same and will also cut down the amount of
condensation reaching the tin sheeting, with the added bonus of allowing the
old timbers to breathe.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008


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Default condensation from tin roof

Phil L
wibbled on Saturday 19 December 2009 16:05


Not sure what tyvek is but it sounds expensive.
Why not use normal breathable roofing felt? - it's cheap and can be


Tyvec is to normal breathable roofing felt as Biro is to ball point pen ;-

But it does seem expensive:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TYVEK-SUPRO-BR...RANE-50M-X-1M-
ROLL_W0QQitemZ320310552886QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&r vr_id=&cguid=4e0d94a21240a0aad482e792ff041e57

as opposed to

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Permavent-Eco-...-Membrane-50m-
x-1m_W0QQitemZ110445714523QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&rvr _id=&cguid=4e0d94a21240a0aad482e792ff041e57

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...



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Default condensation from tin roof

Tim W wrote:
Phil L
wibbled on Saturday 19 December 2009 16:05


Not sure what tyvek is but it sounds expensive.
Why not use normal breathable roofing felt? - it's cheap and can be


Tyvec is to normal breathable roofing felt as Biro is to ball point
pen ;-

But it does seem expensive:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TYVEK-SUPRO-BR...RANE-50M-X-1M-
ROLL_W0QQitemZ320310552886QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&r vr_id=&cguid=4e0d94a21240a0aad482e792ff041e57

as opposed to

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Permavent-Eco-...-Membrane-50m-
x-1m_W0QQitemZ110445714523QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&rvr _id=&cguid=4e0d94a21240a0aad482e792ff041e57


Neither of those links are clickable, but I C&P them and £80 versus £30 is a
big difference per roll

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008


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Default condensation from tin roof

Phil L wrote:

Why not use normal breathable roofing felt? - it's cheap and can be
stapled to the joists just the same and will also cut down the amount of
condensation reaching the tin sheeting, with the added bonus of allowing
the old timbers to breathe.


Yes this is what I was asking, would it be better to staple it in between
the rafters or staple it across the rafters horizontally, as one would fix
slater's felt on the top side of the rafters.

I have used the proper Tyvek, under profiled plastic coated steel sheet, on
rooves where we have replaced a certain fibre reinforced corrugated
concrete sheet, and this seems to be working fine but this is on top of the
rafters and in loose but direct contact with the steel sheet.

AJH
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Default condensation from tin roof

andrew wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Why not use normal breathable roofing felt? - it's cheap and can be
stapled to the joists just the same and will also cut down the
amount of condensation reaching the tin sheeting, with the added
bonus of allowing the old timbers to breathe.


Yes this is what I was asking, would it be better to staple it in
between the rafters or staple it across the rafters horizontally, as
one would fix slater's felt on the top side of the rafters.


That's how I would do it, starting at the ridge and working downwards
overlapping each piece by 150mm

I have used the proper Tyvek, under profiled plastic coated steel
sheet, on rooves where we have replaced a certain fibre reinforced
corrugated concrete sheet, and this seems to be working fine but this
is on top of the rafters and in loose but direct contact with the
steel sheet.

AJH




--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008


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In article ,
andrew writes:
This cold weather has really shown up a problem with an unheated converted
agricultural implement shed. The building is used to store generators,
lights and small tools and has had a plasterboard ceiling added, to stop
dust and bird crap spoiling the kit.

The gable ends are ventilated and the roof is simple 4 by 2 rafters with
corrugated iron, the corrugations vent at the eaves and the ridge capping.

This roof is plainly a good radiator on cold nights and vapour from ambient
air is condensing, and sometimes freezing, on the inside then dripping onto
the plasterboard below.

I'm considering stapling tyvek in between the rafters or even full length
under them but worry about the effect this will have on old untreated roof
timbers?


Probably not good.

This is a hard one, and it's not simply a question of ventilating
which could even make it worse. As you correctly identify, the roof
is likely to be colder than the (outside) air. Ventilating more
(outside) air under it is just going to create more condensation.
The only circumstance in which ventilation would help is if you
are generating significant moisture inside the building which is
getting into the roof (and this could simply be a moist floor which
is staying warmer at night).

You really need a layer of air-tight insulation on the underside
of the metal roof, with no air gap or circulation inbetween.
That's not viable with roofing timbers in contact with the metal.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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On Dec 19, 10:21 pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
andrew writes:

This cold weather has really shown up a problem with an unheated converted
agricultural implement shed. The building is used to store generators,
lights and small tools and has had a plasterboard ceiling added, to stop
dust and bird crap spoiling the kit.


The gable ends are ventilated and the roof is simple 4 by 2 rafters with
corrugated iron, the corrugations vent at the eaves and the ridge capping.


This roof is plainly a good radiator on cold nights and vapour from ambient
air is condensing, and sometimes freezing, on the inside then dripping onto
the plasterboard below.


I'm considering stapling tyvek in between the rafters or even full length
under them but worry about the effect this will have on old untreated roof
timbers?


Probably not good.

This is a hard one, and it's not simply a question of ventilating
which could even make it worse. As you correctly identify, the roof
is likely to be colder than the (outside) air. Ventilating more
(outside) air under it is just going to create more condensation.
The only circumstance in which ventilation would help is if you
are generating significant moisture inside the building which is
getting into the roof (and this could simply be a moist floor which
is staying warmer at night).

You really need a layer of air-tight insulation on the underside
of the metal roof, with no air gap or circulation inbetween.
That's not viable with roofing timbers in contact with the metal.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


could this be one of the only actually beneficial applications for
that damned Ren-u-therm spray-on urethane crap?

JimK


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Default condensation from tin roof

On 20/12/2009 09:30, JimK wrote:
On Dec 19, 10:21 pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In ,
writes:

This cold weather has really shown up a problem with an unheated converted
agricultural implement shed. The building is used to store generators,
lights and small tools and has had a plasterboard ceiling added, to stop
dust and bird crap spoiling the kit.


The gable ends are ventilated and the roof is simple 4 by 2 rafters with
corrugated iron, the corrugations vent at the eaves and the ridge capping.


This roof is plainly a good radiator on cold nights and vapour from ambient
air is condensing, and sometimes freezing, on the inside then dripping onto
the plasterboard below.


I'm considering stapling tyvek in between the rafters or even full length
under them but worry about the effect this will have on old untreated roof
timbers?


Probably not good.

This is a hard one, and it's not simply a question of ventilating
which could even make it worse. As you correctly identify, the roof
is likely to be colder than the (outside) air. Ventilating more
(outside) air under it is just going to create more condensation.
The only circumstance in which ventilation would help is if you
are generating significant moisture inside the building which is
getting into the roof (and this could simply be a moist floor which
is staying warmer at night).

You really need a layer of air-tight insulation on the underside
of the metal roof, with no air gap or circulation inbetween.
That's not viable with roofing timbers in contact with the metal.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


could this be one of the only actually beneficial applications for
that damned Ren-u-therm spray-on urethane crap?

JimK


Spray on would be the obvious way to stop air getting to the underside.
Depends what is in the vicinity. I remember dealing with a claim once
for about 100 cars that got affected by a contractors efforts. We paid a
local bodyshop so much per car to clean them up. Only a few needed painting.
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andrew wrote:
You could simply increase the ventilation in the roof space above the
plasterboard just as much as is needed to stop the condensation.


there is good ventilation as the gable ends have the equivalent of 4 air
bricks in each end and the eaves and ridge have the area under the
corrugations. we have a lean to adjacent which is open fronted with no
ceiling and the condensation is visible on the inside of the roof.


Andrew, I am surprised by some of the advice you have been given by
other posters above. I studied the whole business of insulation two
years ago when we were refurbishing this house by importing an excellent
book from the States. What I learnt is that condensation will occur on
the underside of roof-tiles, tin-roof, or the felt or canvas directly
beneath it if the air in that space is not the same temperature as the
air outside. Hence, the advice was that one must make absolutely
certain that your attic has good and free ventilation. Now, obviously,
beneath the ceiling you want to keep warm, so beneath the ceiling you
want none of that cold that is directly above your ceiling. Hence a
highly effective thermal barrier must be created a ceiling level.

From my understanding all you will achieve in the circumstances you have
described by adding canvas adjacent to your tin-roof is that the
condensation on the underside of the tin will be caught by the canvas
and dribble downwards to the eaves. However, you are likely to get much
the same problem on the underside of your canvas! In fact, I distinctly
remember that being one of the issues of one of the chapters: how do you
ensure you do not get condensation on the underside of the canvas over
which your roof-tiles are laid? Answer: increase your ventilation.

You say you have four air-bricks in each gable, but are these actually
allowing free and immediate movement of air? We were so concerned
about this matter when this place was being refurbished that we forced
our builders into putting one bloody great big vent, 12x12" at one gable
end of our roof. It's as good as 1-foot hole but for mesh which stops
birds etc. getting in. It's damned cold up there in our attic, as cold
as it is out in the garden, but we don't get condensation on the
underside of our canvas.

The odd thing though is your saying that you have a totally open lean-to
with a tin roof and that there is condensation on the underside of it!
Do you live in a very moisture-laden area? Are you in a dingle in the
hills of Wales, Cumbria, or Scotland? Do you have a stream and/or ponds
in your garden? Are there constant mists? If you have a significant
condensation problem inside a totally open lean-to, I don't think
there's much you can do, except lay some large plastic sheeting over the
upper-surface of your plaster-board ceiling. Surely there isn't enough
condensation to drop onto such and form massive puddles that would need
to drain away? You might find that the moisture that gathered on the
sheeting will also be constantly evaporating.

I suggest trying this easy and inexpensive route first. Nip into Wilko
and buy a plastic-dust or two first. They're massive and they only cost
£1. Lay it over your plasterboard, wait a month, and observe.

But if you want to keep the area beneath the plasterboard ceiling
"warm", in comparison to the space between the plasterboard and the tin
roof above, then consider adding a strong thermal barrier against the
ceiling. Â (And this may possibly stop daylight warmth escaping from the
tool area into the roof-space, so that you then won't have to increase
the ventilation up there.)


In anticipation of wishing to warm the area when maintenance is done I did
put 100mm fibreglass insulation between the joists above the plasterboard
when it was fitted in March and it is this that is getting wet from the
drips.


Fine, so start by laying a large dust-sheet over the insulation. If
you need to use more than one sheet, edge it upwards where they meet so
that you create two potential "paddling pools". And then wait a month
and observe.

Good luck.

Eddy.


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JimK wrote:


You really need a layer of air-tight insulation on the underside
of the metal roof, with no air gap or circulation inbetween.
That's not viable with roofing timbers in contact with the metal.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


The thought I had was that there would be a limited amount of air to supply
extra moisture in the gap between tyvek , rafter and tin, the fear would be
this staying damp between the tin and timber and causing rot. Most of the
time it would be a ventilated space and become dry, the problem only arises
on cold nights. a limited amount of vapour would pass through the tyvek
also. Whether the tyvek would become cold enough itself for droplets to
form I guess I'll only find out by trial and error.

It's deciding whether to risk the tyvek applied to the rafters or attempting
to staple it up at the joint twixt timber and tin.

could this be one of the only actually beneficial applications for
that damned Ren-u-therm spray-on urethane crap?


I've considered this, it is expensive, makes for maintenance problems as
well as difficulty in recycling the roof (buildings are conversions and
only limited life) and doesn't embedding the timbers in foam risk rotting?

AJH

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In article ,
Eddy writes:
andrew wrote:
You could simply increase the ventilation in the roof space above the
plasterboard just as much as is needed to stop the condensation.


there is good ventilation as the gable ends have the equivalent of 4 air
bricks in each end and the eaves and ridge have the area under the
corrugations. we have a lean to adjacent which is open fronted with no
ceiling and the condensation is visible on the inside of the roof.


Andrew, I am surprised by some of the advice you have been given by
other posters above. I studied the whole business of insulation two
years ago when we were refurbishing this house by importing an excellent
book from the States. What I learnt is that condensation will occur on
the underside of roof-tiles, tin-roof, or the felt or canvas directly
beneath it if the air in that space is not the same temperature as the
air outside.


That information is wrong, and is key to the OP's problem.
Condensation forms on the underside of the roof if the _roof_
is cooler than the air. The roof will often be cooler than the
outside air (if no cloud cover, it radiates it's
heat into space, and cools much faster than the air). If the
same air ventilates under it, then it will be cooler than the
inside air too, and hence the condensation, which will be worse
the more ventilation (air changes) there is.

Hence, the advice was that one must make absolutely
certain that your attic has good and free ventilation.


That works for a heated house, but not for an unheated shed.

Fine, so start by laying a large dust-sheet over the insulation. If
you need to use more than one sheet, edge it upwards where they meet so
that you create two potential "paddling pools". And then wait a month
and observe.


You mustn't put a moisture barrier on the cold side of
permeable insulation. It will form condensation from the
moisture in and blow the insulation and slowly saturate
the insulation with water, which has the opposite effect
than intended.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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On Dec 20, 11:25 am, andrew wrote:
JimK wrote:

You really need a layer of air-tight insulation on the underside
of the metal roof, with no air gap or circulation inbetween.
That's not viable with roofing timbers in contact with the metal.


--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


The thought I had was that there would be a limited amount of air to supply
extra moisture in the gap between tyvek , rafter and tin, the fear would be
this staying damp between the tin and timber and causing rot. Most of the
time it would be a ventilated space and become dry, the problem only arises
on cold nights. a limited amount of vapour would pass through the tyvek
also. Whether the tyvek would become cold enough itself for droplets to
form I guess I'll only find out by trial and error.



I've seen that very thing on our attached "mistal" after building
works - seems oK now things have settled (1+year on)

It's deciding whether to risk the tyvek applied to the rafters or attempting
to staple it up at the joint twixt timber and tin.


do experiments? doubt you'll discover which bodge works *best* unless
you do...
i'd do em loose so your membrane "sags" down from rafters at sides so
any moisture collected drains away from rafters rather than soaking
them...a la sarking felt in traditional roof structures...

could this be one of the only actually beneficial applications for
that damned Ren-u-therm spray-on urethane crap?


I've considered this, it is expensive, makes for maintenance problems as
well as difficulty in recycling the roof (buildings are conversions and
only limited life) and doesn't embedding the timbers in foam risk rotting?



I think risks of rotting are probly "in the mix" whatever you do
"bodge wise"..

If you don;t want to bodge it then I can't think of any alternatives
apart from take the roof off and redo it "properly"?

JimK


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BSRIA (I think it was) published a research paper on condensation
the underside of steel roofs. It was a common occurence in 1970s
buildings. The metal roofs radiate a lot of energy into the sky on a
clear night, causing them to cool far below the ambient air
temperature.

I came across the paper about 20 years ago. I can't recall what the
recommendations were though.
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In message
,
Owain writes
On 20 Dec, 20:33, Onetap wrote:
* BSRIA (I think it was) published a research paper on condensation
the underside of steel roofs. It was a common occurence in 1970s
buildings. The metal roofs radiate a lot of energy into the sky on a
clear night, causing them to cool far below the ambient air
temperature.


This is intriguing. Can a *black body sink* extract energy in this way?

There's some form of, I presume spray-on, anti-condensation treatment
available for metal shipping containers.


It is possible to buy roofing sheet with the anti-condensation finish
pre-applied. I've not seen any but believe it is a *felt* which retains
the condensate until it is evaporated by the next bit of sunshine. This
is said to be the way cement fibre roofing works. Retro-fitting might
not be practical.

I doubt Andrew has funds or authority to renew the entire roof. One
issue will be that the roof sheets may be secured to purlins rather than
rafters so attaching membrane to the underside will tend to run water
down to the timber. I have heard that trapping a layer of relatively
static air can work to minimise condensation but at the risk of
encouraging rot in the wood:-(

More ventilation? The moisture content needs to be below the level at
which *dew* forms or zero in a frost!

regards



--
Tim Lamb
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Tim Lamb wrote:

I doubt Andrew has funds or authority to renew the entire roof.


Dead right on both counts, anyway being on enforced holiday and then 4 day
week I'm in no hurry to spend any money!


One
issue will be that the roof sheets may be secured to purlins rather than
rafters so attaching membrane to the underside will tend to run water
down to the timber.


There are no purlins, it's screwed directly to un treated rafters.

I have heard that trapping a layer of relatively
static air can work to minimise condensation but at the risk of
encouraging rot in the wood:-(


This is my worry but I will try a section with tyvek, the difficult decision
is whether to spend the considerable extra time laying the material up to
down between the rafters, tight to the roof. With the hope any runoff will
be down the tyvex and out via the eaves.

More ventilation? The moisture content needs to be below the level at
which dew forms or zero in a frost!


Yes extra ventilation is a red herring in this case. As the roof is a good
radiator I had considered a split aircon unit in to extract heat on sunny
days but the cheap ones don't allow a difference in height between the two
units.

BTW even ice has a vapour pressure (that's how freeze drying works in a
vacuum).

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In message , andrew
writes
I have heard that trapping a layer of relatively
static air can work to minimise condensation but at the risk of
encouraging rot in the wood:-(


This is my worry but I will try a section with tyvek, the difficult decision
is whether to spend the considerable extra time laying the material up to
down between the rafters, tight to the roof. With the hope any runoff will
be down the tyvex and out via the eaves.


When I had some slates off our roof I noticed that the roofing felt
(laid over the rafters) still sagged enough to cause potential puddling
where it lifted over the gutter board. Difficult to imagine doing this
as retrofit down near the eaves!

When we bought the yard opposite the farmhouse, we found lots of office
type suspended ceilings. T section steel hung on wires with 4' x 1'6"
insulated slabs between. Long gone now but a possible cheap source of
fireproof rigid insulation.

regards
--
Tim Lamb
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On 20 Dec, 20:33, Onetap wrote:
* BSRIA (I think it was) published a research paper on condensation
the underside of steel roofs.


No they didn't. The memory cells fired up when I stopped trying to
remember.

It was the Building Research Establishment, Digest 180, 'Condensation
in Roofs', 4 pages 1986. Possibly available at a good reference
library.
I have a copy somewhere, if I could only remember where.....
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