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Default OT Any opinion or experience on this ?

This has just been advertised in my Union mag.

http://www.gas-elec.co.uk/reduce-heating-bill.html

Has anyone used one or have a view as to it's effectiveness? They seem
very upfront and clear in their claims but at £156 for a couple of
electronic timers and relays, it's horrendously expensive. If the
principle is right, I might be tempted to build my own version, bringing
it right on topic for DIY.

Andy C
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Default OT Any opinion or experience on this ?

From their website: The thermostat then stops demanding heat; but the
heat that is already in the system still has to work through. In
effect, because of this time-lag, the water or room is overheated.

Wouldn't the simple way to achieve the same result without spending
£150 on a gadget be to turn the heating down by a couple of degrees?

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On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 06:09:18 -0700 (PDT), mike wrote:

From their website: The thermostat then stops demanding heat; but the
heat that is already in the system still has to work through. In
effect, because of this time-lag, the water or room is overheated.

Wouldn't the simple way to achieve the same result without spending
£150 on a gadget be to turn the heating down by a couple of degrees?


Surely, their assertion is, that you maintain the *same* temperature for less
energy input. It sounds very much like getting something for nothing, but I
suspect it's more like nothing for £156 ! ;-)
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Default OT Any opinion or experience on this ?

In article ,
Andy Cap writes:
This has just been advertised in my Union mag.

http://www.gas-elec.co.uk/reduce-heating-bill.html

Has anyone used one or have a view as to it's effectiveness? They seem
very upfront and clear in their claims but at £156 for a couple of
electronic timers and relays, it's horrendously expensive. If the
principle is right, I might be tempted to build my own version, bringing
it right on topic for DIY.


I thought some modern programmable room stats already did this, in a
more effective way than that device claims to, but learning what
overshoot a given system has, and compensating by turning off the
heating earlier. That would be more effective than the pulsing that
link talks about.

OTOH, I design and build my own heating controllers, so I haven't
actually used any recent/modern commercially available controllers,
and maybe they're not as advanced as I think?

Note that if you are running a condensing system at low water
temperatures, then the overshoot significantly reduces, as the rads
are not storing as much energy.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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On Aug 28, 3:48*pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:24:48 +0000 (UTC), (Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
I thought some modern programmable room stats already did this, in a
more effective way than that device claims to, but learning what
overshoot a given system has, and compensating by turning off the
heating earlier. That would be more effective than the pulsing that
link talks about.


OTOH, I design and build my own heating controllers, so I haven't
actually used any recent/modern commercially available controllers,
and maybe they're not as advanced as I think?


Note that if you are running a condensing system at low water
temperatures, then the overshoot significantly reduces, as the rads
are not storing as much energy.


When talking about overshoot, presumably that's soley at the end of any timed
heating period, because *any* heat generated throughout the period will
contribute to that demanded,


yes, it just heats the rooms another 0.0 something of a degree


or am I misunderstanding ? It seems impossible to
make such savings by simple turning off the boiler a little ealier at this
point.

Or to put it another way, where is the heat they claim to save, being lost?


You can achieve an ideantical result, ie turning the heating demand
off that 20 secs earlier, by simply setting your stat 0.001 degrees
lower.


NT
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Default OT Any opinion or experience on this ?


"Andy Cap" wrote in message
o.uk...
This has just been advertised in my Union mag.

http://www.gas-elec.co.uk/reduce-heating-bill.html

Has anyone used one or have a view as to it's effectiveness? They seem
very upfront and clear in their claims but at £156 for a couple of
electronic timers and relays, it's horrendously expensive. If the
principle is right, I might be tempted to build my own version, bringing
it right on topic for DIY.



I'd query their figure for the average annual gas bill too - it's roughly
twice what mine was in '08, and I expect to reduce that by about £180 - £200
this year thanks to the cavity wall insulation we had installed last
December.

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On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:47:44 +0100, Andy Cap
wrote:

This has just been advertised in my Union mag.

http://www.gas-elec.co.uk/reduce-heating-bill.html

Has anyone used one or have a view as to it's effectiveness? They seem
very upfront and clear in their claims but at £156 for a couple of
electronic timers and relays, it's horrendously expensive. If the
principle is right, I might be tempted to build my own version, bringing
it right on topic for DIY.


Absolutely no way it could save an average of 22% gas used in CH,
probably much less DHW. Nothing like.

For one thing all the heat energy produced by burning gas must
currently be going somewhere. If heat is left in the system when the
thermostat cuts off then it (in the main) just goes to extend the
heating cycle that has just stopped so you could just turn the
thermostat down a gnat's. You could probably get a tiny bit more
still out of your heat by wiring the pump to run on to extract the
last of the heat when the boiler's stopped firing but modern boilers /
controllers already do that. To do it the best way would need a system
with some intelligence to monitor temperatures inside / outside and
anticipate the best time to stop the boiler firing and to shut down
the pump in the light of thermostat settings.

Derek

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Default OT Any opinion or experience on this ?



Andy Cap wrote:
This has just been advertised in my Union mag.

http://www.gas-elec.co.uk/reduce-heating-bill.html

Has anyone used one or have a view as to it's effectiveness? They seem
very upfront and clear in their claims but at �156 for a couple of
electronic timers and relays, it's horrendously expensive. If the
principle is right, I might be tempted to build my own version, bringing
it right on topic for DIY.

Andy C


More snake oil.
It's a rip-off. There's about a fiver in it's manufacturing costs and
it's effect is just the same as turning the heating down in the first
place.
Most thermostats have a mechanical 'derivative' (simple pre-act) built
in and won't allow the apparently massive temperature overruns that
the device claims to prevent and save money on.
What's maybe more worrying is it being allowed to turn up in a Union
mag'. Have we no engineers left in this country?.
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"Andy Cap" wrote in message
...

Surely, their assertion is, that you maintain the *same* temperature for
less
energy input.


Which surely would be impossible.




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"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Cap writes:
This has just been advertised in my Union mag.

http://www.gas-elec.co.uk/reduce-heating-bill.html

Has anyone used one or have a view as to it's effectiveness? They seem
very upfront and clear in their claims but at £156 for a couple of
electronic timers and relays, it's horrendously expensive. If the
principle is right, I might be tempted to build my own version, bringing
it right on topic for DIY.


I thought some modern programmable room stats already did this, in a
more effective way than that device claims to, but learning what
overshoot a given system has, and compensating by turning off the
heating earlier. That would be more effective than the pulsing that
link talks about.

OTOH, I design and build my own heating controllers, so I haven't
actually used any recent/modern commercially available controllers,
and maybe they're not as advanced as I think?

Note that if you are running a condensing system at low water
temperatures, then the overshoot significantly reduces, as the rads
are not storing as much energy.

--
Andrew Gabriel



You would not want to follow the g-save wiring diagram anyway. You will not
find the red wire on the 3 port valve:-)

Adam

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"Andy Cap" wrote in message
o.uk...
This has just been advertised in my Union mag.

http://www.gas-elec.co.uk/reduce-heating-bill.html

Has anyone used one or have a view as to it's effectiveness? They seem
very upfront and clear in their claims but at £156 for a couple of
electronic timers and relays, it's horrendously expensive. If the
principle is right, I might be tempted to build my own version, bringing
it right on topic for DIY.

Andy C


TBH it looks like one for the ASA.

The product claims that it monitors the heat circulating in the system but
in actual fact it monitors nothing. It simply keeps turning the heating and
hot water off for small time periods when you are calling for them.

It will save sweet FA on a Combi HW supply.

Turning your room stat down just 1 deg will probably save you more money.
The HW temperature is irrelevant. You just use less cold water when running
a bath if the HW over shoots by a degree

Adam

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On Aug 28, 2:56*pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 06:09:18 -0700 (PDT), mike wrote:
From their website: The thermostat then stops demanding heat; but the
heat that is already in the system still has to work through. In
effect, because of this time-lag, the water or room is overheated.


Wouldn't the simple way to achieve the same result without spending
£150 on a gadget be to turn the heating down by a couple of degrees?


Surely, their assertion is, that you maintain the *same* temperature for less
energy input. *It sounds very much like getting something for nothing, but I
suspect it's more like nothing for £156 ! * *;-)



Well, maybe they're trying to say you maintain the same "target"
temperature, but in reality it would be a lower temperature for less
energy (which is a truism) because they've already described the
temperature without the gadget as "overheated" and the gadget
supposedly stops the overheating.

The Good Housekeeping tabloid journalism review is worth a read if you
want a laugh. They regurgitate the manufacturer's blurb and then
claim without any proof that it cuts a third off your gas bill.

You'd stand more chance of making a perpetual motion machine by
strapping buttered toast to your cat's back.




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