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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

Brief description of problem.

Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.

In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB. With that in mind, the
only devices consuming power at 1am in the morning are fridge, freezer
and combi boiler all of which work on timers/thermostats. Therefore,
one of these devices (or the RCB itself) must be at fault?

The kettle was originally suspect - on two of the four occasions, it
had not long boiled when the trip occurred. I tested this two nights
ago by boiling a full kettle load of water (twice) and then pouring it
away. Tripped both times a few minutes after boiling when the kettle
was off its base. Tried plugging the kettle into the living room
sockets instead - tripped. Replaced kettle. At 1am this morning
however when it tripped, the kettle hadn't been used for several
hours.

Is it possible the RCB is a fault? I can leave the fridge and freezer
doors open, combi boiler running and it doesn't trip so could it be a
fault with one of these causing a power spike when it's timer/
thermostat kicks in? Or is the RCB too sensitive?

Please help!
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT), Bear wrote:

When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the house are knocked out.


You use the abbriviation "RCB", I'm not sure what you *exactly* mean
by that. A consumer unit can contain three different types of breaker
(excluding the main switch...).

Minature Circuit Breakers (MCB) for each individual circuit (socket
rings, lights, cookers etc), this provides overload protection only.
This just has a toggle to reset it.

Resdiual Current Device (RCD) which monitors the live ane neutral
wires and trips whne there is more than the specified current going
than is coming back. No overload protection just dection of "earth
leakage". This will have a "test" button and toggle to reset.

Residual Current Breaker Oveload (RCBO) these combine the function of
an MCB and RCD into a single unit and provides both earth leakage and
overload protection to the circuit passing through it. Again test
button and reset toggle.

We need to know exactly what type of device is tripping.

--
Cheers
Dave.



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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On 25 June, 09:45, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT), Bear wrote:
When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the house are knocked out.


You use the abbriviation "RCB", I'm not sure what you *exactly* mean
by that. A consumer unit can contain three different types of breaker
(excluding the main switch...).

Minature Circuit Breakers (MCB) for each individual circuit (socket
rings, lights, cookers etc), this provides overload protection only.
This just has a toggle to reset it.

Resdiual Current Device (RCD) which monitors the live ane neutral
wires and trips whne there is more than the specified current going
than is coming back. No overload protection just dection of "earth
leakage". This will have a "test" button and toggle to reset.

Residual Current Breaker Oveload (RCBO) these combine the function of
an MCB and RCD into a single unit and provides both earth leakage and
overload protection to the circuit passing through it. Again test
button and reset toggle.

We need to know exactly what type of device is tripping.

--
Cheers
Dave.



It gets worse if you have an old Voltage operated Earth Leakage
Circuit Breaker :-(

Taking a giant leap of faith and assuming you have either an RCBO or a
separate RCD serving the socket circuit(s) only then it is possible to
test your RCD using an RCD tester which will check the operating
current and time of operation. Also assuming the problem is down to
leakage currents rather than fault (milliamps not hundreds of amps)
There are other possible causes such as dampness/condensation ocurring
under certain weather conditions or having a kettle blowing steam into
a socket outlet above a worktop.
Insects/small mammals can give rise to such a problem also.
If you have the test equipment and the knowledge you can test the
insulation values of the circuit and subject to vulnerability the
apparatus you have plugged in.
Some indication of your skill level would help but I can't help
thinking that if you have to ask you may not be able to meet the
requirements of testing the system and you really need a decent
electrician to find the fault.
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On Jun 25, 12:17*pm, cynic wrote:
On 25 June, 09:45, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:





On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT), Bear wrote:
When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the house are knocked out.


You use the abbriviation "RCB", I'm not sure what you *exactly* mean
by that. A consumer unit can contain three different types of breaker
(excluding the main switch...).


Minature Circuit Breakers (MCB) for each individual circuit (socket
rings, lights, cookers etc), this provides overload protection only.
This just has a toggle to reset it.


Resdiual Current Device (RCD) which monitors the live ane neutral
wires and trips whne there is more than the specified current going
than is coming back. No overload protection just dection of "earth
leakage". This will have a "test" button and toggle to reset.


Residual Current Breaker Oveload (RCBO) these combine the function of
an MCB and RCD into a single unit and provides both earth leakage and
overload protection to the circuit passing through it. Again test
button and reset toggle.


We need to know exactly what type of device is tripping.


--
Cheers
Dave.


It gets worse if you have an old Voltage operated Earth Leakage
Circuit Breaker :-(

Taking a giant leap of faith and assuming you have either an RCBO or a
separate RCD serving the socket circuit(s) only then it is possible to
test your RCD using an RCD tester which will check the operating
current and time of operation. Also assuming the problem is down to
leakage currents rather than fault (milliamps not hundreds of amps)
There are other possible causes such as dampness/condensation ocurring
under certain weather conditions or having a kettle blowing steam into
a socket outlet above a worktop.
Insects/small mammals can give rise to such a problem also.
If you have the test equipment and the knowledge you can test the
insulation values of the circuit and subject to vulnerability the
apparatus you have plugged in.
Some indication of your skill level would help but I can't help
thinking that if you have to ask you may not be able to meet the
requirements of testing the system and you really need a decent
electrician to find the fault.


Thanks for the replies.

My skill level is reasonable competence with electrics but anything
which requires testing beyond a standard digital meter or common
sense, I leave to the experts. I think the device is an RCCB (is this
the same as an RCBO?). Indeed the smaller switches are MCBs, and there
is a main master switch on the consumer unit. I also considered the
option of dampness - but ripping the kitchen apart (where it's most
likely to come from) is not a viable option. If it is dampness then I
should be able to determine this by investigating the electrical
sockets inside the kitchen - it has to get in somewhere!

When tripped, the MCBs remain in place - only the RCCB trips. My next
course of action is to try the test button (duh - I know I should've
tried this before posting) to make sure the RCCB is working correctly.
Then I will systematically go through the MCBs to see if there is one
where I have nothing powered which I can turn off. That will isolate
one more part of the house to narrow down the problem. Also, I am
trying to source some power breakers which shut off at 20ms or below.
I read that consumer units are usually 30ms. I can plug these into the
suspect devices and hopefully they will then trip (if faulty) before
the consumer unit.

Perseverance.....
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

Bear wrote:

Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times


Would I be right in assuming that it is the RCD feeding a number of
otherwise separate circuits that is tripping?

See:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=RCD

for details of RCDs

If so, then the section on nuisance trips may help:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Nuisance_trips


--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On Jun 25, 1:52*pm, "Calvin Sambrook" wrote:
"Bear" wrote in message

...





Brief description of problem.


Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.


In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB. With that in mind, the
only devices consuming power at 1am in the morning are fridge, freezer
and combi boiler all of which work on timers/thermostats. Therefore,
one of these devices (or the RCB itself) must be at fault?


The kettle was originally suspect - on two of the four occasions, it
had not long boiled when the trip occurred. I tested this two nights
ago by boiling a full kettle load of water (twice) and then pouring it
away. Tripped both times a few minutes after boiling when the kettle
was off its base. Tried plugging the kettle into the living room
sockets instead - tripped. Replaced kettle. At 1am this morning
however when it tripped, the kettle hadn't been used for several
hours.


Is it possible the RCB is a fault? I can leave the fridge and freezer
doors open, combi boiler running and it doesn't trip so could it be a
fault with one of these causing a power spike when it's timer/
thermostat kicks in? Or is the RCB too sensitive?


Please help!


Oh what fun, not.
Some things to keep in mind:

1. If you have an RCD then in some situations it can trip for faults between
N and E. *This happens when there is a small resistance on the fixed N
wiring so a small voltage is present, especially when the circuit is loaded.
If anything than connects N and E enough current flows to trip the MCB.

2. The individual MCB switches in the consumer unit only break the L wire,
they leave the N (and obviously the E) connected so turning a circuit off
individually does not isolate it for the purposes of eliminating it as the
cause if the problem happens to be an N to E short.

3. Decaying vermin have a variable resistance. *The one which got
electrocuted between the L and E in our consumer unit caused tripping in
much the way you have described.


Thanks all for your thoughts. Yes the RCB does feed a number of other
circuits and as for decaying vermin - the thought had occurred to me.
But like others I would have no idea where to start testing for such
things (assuming it is not obvious from a reconnaissance of the
attic). Thanks John for the links - I will check them out
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

george (dicegeorge) coughed up some electrons that declared:

cpc farnell have some 10ma rcds
which work at about 13 amps -
i use them for my extension leads to the garden,
as they should trip first...

[g]


Nice idea - but unfortunately it's not a given.

Once a fault 30mA has been seen by both devices, both will trip, unless one
of them has an integeral time delay (Type S).

However, your theory works for fault currents between 10 and 30mA given or
take device tolerances.

Cheers

Tim
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

In article
,
Bear wrote:
My skill level is reasonable competence with electrics but anything
which requires testing beyond a standard digital meter or common
sense, I leave to the experts. I think the device is an RCCB (is this
the same as an RCBO?). Indeed the smaller switches are MCBs, and there
is a main master switch on the consumer unit. I also considered the
option of dampness - but ripping the kitchen apart (where it's most
likely to come from) is not a viable option. If it is dampness then I
should be able to determine this by investigating the electrical
sockets inside the kitchen - it has to get in somewhere!


When tripped, the MCBs remain in place - only the RCCB trips.


Right. So a split load CU fitted with a RCD - residual current device - to
protect one group of circuits? This looks at the current flow on both line
and neutral, and if they differ by more than the amount the device says it
trips. Basically you have a 'leak' from either line or neutral to earth.
And it's additive with appliances. Many will have 'bleed' resistors etc
from line to earth for RFI suppression purposes. But only cause a tiny
current to flow. Other likely ones are things with a heater of some sort -
the mineral insulation inside a 'black' heating element can cause exactly
this if it gets damp - but not enough to overload the circuit. Washing
machines and immersion heaters are examples of this.

Turning of an MCB doesn't totally isolate the circuit as it only switches
the line - and a neutral to earth fault will still cause the RCD to trip.

You need to *unplug* everything on the RCD protected circuits first. Pain
with fridges and freezers, but you have to find out what is causing the
problem. It's pretty unlikely to be the actual wiring unless bodged.

Things like immersions, showers and coolers have normally double pole
isolation switching so can just be turned off. Of course if your sockets
are new and of good quality they're likely DP switched too.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On 25 June, 14:47, Tim S wrote:
george (dicegeorge) coughed up some electrons that declared:

cpc farnell have some 10ma rcds
which work at about 13 amps -
i use them for my extension leads to the garden,
as they should trip first...


[g]


Nice idea - but unfortunately it's not a given.

Once a fault 30mA has been seen by both devices, both will trip, unless one
of them has an integeral time delay (Type S).

However, your theory works for fault currents between 10 and 30mA given or
take device tolerances.

Cheers

Tim


A 3mA RCD should trip within 10% of the rated triping current so it
might open at 27mA. It should not trip at 50% of the rated trip
current so it should remain on at 15mA. There are other conditions to
be satisfied but these are your two applicable ones.
A multi-meter is unlikely to be able to be of help in finding a high
resistance fault and I suggest you would need a Megger. I suppose I
return to my original response that you need assistance or you might
like to invest in an all-in-one multifunction installation tester
which can carry our insulation, continuity,loop impedance, RCD
operation and timing and other tests depending on the price you pay.
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

Bear wrote:
On Jun 25, 1:52 pm, "Calvin Sambrook" wrote:
"Bear" wrote in message

...





Brief description of problem.
Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.
In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB. With that in mind, the
only devices consuming power at 1am in the morning are fridge, freezer
and combi boiler all of which work on timers/thermostats. Therefore,
one of these devices (or the RCB itself) must be at fault?
The kettle was originally suspect - on two of the four occasions, it
had not long boiled when the trip occurred. I tested this two nights
ago by boiling a full kettle load of water (twice) and then pouring it
away. Tripped both times a few minutes after boiling when the kettle
was off its base. Tried plugging the kettle into the living room
sockets instead - tripped. Replaced kettle. At 1am this morning
however when it tripped, the kettle hadn't been used for several
hours.
Is it possible the RCB is a fault? I can leave the fridge and freezer
doors open, combi boiler running and it doesn't trip so could it be a
fault with one of these causing a power spike when it's timer/
thermostat kicks in? Or is the RCB too sensitive?
Please help!

Oh what fun, not.
Some things to keep in mind:

1. If you have an RCD then in some situations it can trip for faults between
N and E. This happens when there is a small resistance on the fixed N
wiring so a small voltage is present, especially when the circuit is loaded.
If anything than connects N and E enough current flows to trip the MCB.

2. The individual MCB switches in the consumer unit only break the L wire,
they leave the N (and obviously the E) connected so turning a circuit off
individually does not isolate it for the purposes of eliminating it as the
cause if the problem happens to be an N to E short.

3. Decaying vermin have a variable resistance. The one which got
electrocuted between the L and E in our consumer unit caused tripping in
much the way you have described.


Thanks all for your thoughts. Yes the RCB does feed a number of other
circuits and as for decaying vermin - the thought had occurred to me.
But like others I would have no idea where to start testing for such
things (assuming it is not obvious from a reconnaissance of the
attic). Thanks John for the links - I will check them out


The wiki article includes most of our (i.e. uk.d-i-y as a group)
accumulated wisdom on tracking down nuisance trips - so its probable a
good starting point and covers much of the advice we would normally
post in situations like this.

There is a fair amount of deduction you can do without specialist
equipment - although it can be tedious!

--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

cynic wrote:

A 3mA RCD should trip within 10% of the rated triping current so it
might open at 27mA. It should not trip at 50% of the rated trip
current so it should remain on at 15mA.


ITYM a 30mA RCD

Andy
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Bear wrote:
Brief description of problem.

Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.

In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB.


Not true.

Any device that DOES draw power anywhere near a neutralearth short
will trip one.

I have the same problem more or less isolated to one ring thats been
extended..anything on a section that one trips the house.

I must get down to fixing it..
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On Jun 25, 8:07*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bear wrote:
Brief description of problem.


Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.


In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB.


Not true.

Any device that DOES draw power anywhere near a neutralearth short
will trip one.

I have the same problem more or less isolated to one ring thats been
extended..anything on a section that one trips the house.

I must get down to fixing it..


Ok - more information:
Consumer unit is a Crabtree Starbreaker. The RCCB (labelled as such)
is split load 63A/30ma (363/S030). The 3 MCBs it protects are 2x 61/
B32 MCBs and 1x 61/B20. The latter is for the extractor fan only. The
other 2 - 1 is for all of the sockets except the kitchen, the other is
the kitchen. I've pulled a few sockets apart tonight in the kitchen
but all connections are tight and no signs of problems; except the
freezer. The live connection wasn't tight and there's a small nick in
the wire which could have connected to the securing screw for the
socket. Doubt this is an issue though.

Next steps - source an earth leak tester cheap on the net and test all
sockets. At the weekend scour the attic for dead/decaying vermin which
may have chewed a cable (beginning to seem like the most applicable
option).

One thing still puzzles me - 2 nights ago it tripped minutes after
boiling a full kettle. Same thing happened when trying this process 5
minutes later. Eventually plugging in the kettle just tripped the
sockets (as soon as the kettle was placed on its base) repeatedly -
even tried sockets in the living room. Hence replaced kettle following
day. That morning tripped around 1am.

I've moved the kettle away from the combi boiler - maybe the steam was
getting inside unseen?
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Bear wrote:
On Jun 25, 8:07 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bear wrote:
Brief description of problem.
Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.
In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB.

Not true.

Any device that DOES draw power anywhere near a neutralearth short
will trip one.

I have the same problem more or less isolated to one ring thats been
extended..anything on a section that one trips the house.

I must get down to fixing it..


Ok - more information:
Consumer unit is a Crabtree Starbreaker. The RCCB (labelled as such)
is split load 63A/30ma (363/S030). The 3 MCBs it protects are 2x 61/
B32 MCBs and 1x 61/B20. The latter is for the extractor fan only. The
other 2 - 1 is for all of the sockets except the kitchen, the other is
the kitchen. I've pulled a few sockets apart tonight in the kitchen
but all connections are tight and no signs of problems; except the
freezer. The live connection wasn't tight and there's a small nick in
the wire which could have connected to the securing screw for the
socket. Doubt this is an issue though.

Next steps - source an earth leak tester cheap on the net and test all
sockets. At the weekend scour the attic for dead/decaying vermin which
may have chewed a cable (beginning to seem like the most applicable
option).

One thing still puzzles me - 2 nights ago it tripped minutes after
boiling a full kettle. Same thing happened when trying this process 5
minutes later. Eventually plugging in the kettle just tripped the
sockets (as soon as the kettle was placed on its base) repeatedly -
even tried sockets in the living room. Hence replaced kettle following
day. That morning tripped around 1am.

I've moved the kettle away from the combi boiler - maybe the steam was
getting inside unseen?


perhaps having the kettle on
drew a lot of power (13 amps)
which warmed the wires up
and the leakage increased due to the heat...

if it's like here
sometime the kettle socket has an extension lead
with 2 kettles, 2 toasters,
a microwave etc...

[g]
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:21:50 -0700 (PDT), Bear wrote:

The live connection wasn't tight and there's a small nick in
the wire which could have connected to the securing screw for the
socket. Doubt this is an issue though.


You have found a "fault" though and presumably corrected it. I'd be
tempted to wait a while and see if the problem has gone away but
having found one socket with a loose wire and knicked insulation I'd
be going round all the other accessories in the place, ceiling roses
included.

--
Cheers
Dave.





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"Bear" wrote in message
...
On Jun 25, 8:07 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bear wrote:
Brief description of problem.


Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.


In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB.


Not true.

Any device that DOES draw power anywhere near a neutralearth short
will trip one.

I have the same problem more or less isolated to one ring thats been
extended..anything on a section that one trips the house.

I must get down to fixing it..


Ok - more information:
Consumer unit is a Crabtree Starbreaker. The RCCB (labelled as such)
is split load 63A/30ma (363/S030). The 3 MCBs it protects are 2x 61/
B32 MCBs and 1x 61/B20. The latter is for the extractor fan only. The
other 2 - 1 is for all of the sockets except the kitchen, the other is
the kitchen. I've pulled a few sockets apart tonight in the kitchen
but all connections are tight and no signs of problems; except the
freezer. The live connection wasn't tight and there's a small nick in
the wire which could have connected to the securing screw for the
socket. Doubt this is an issue though.

Next steps - source an earth leak tester cheap on the net and test all
sockets. At the weekend scour the attic for dead/decaying vermin which
may have chewed a cable (beginning to seem like the most applicable
option).

One thing still puzzles me - 2 nights ago it tripped minutes after
boiling a full kettle. Same thing happened when trying this process 5
minutes later. Eventually plugging in the kettle just tripped the
sockets (as soon as the kettle was placed on its base) repeatedly -
even tried sockets in the living room. Hence replaced kettle following
day. That morning tripped around 1am.

I've moved the kettle away from the combi boiler - maybe the steam was
getting inside unseen?


I would not call small nick in a cable insignificant.
I have discovered that to be the most common fault of RCDs tripping.

When trying to find faults like this it is worth remembering that extra
loads (and that includes loads on the non RCD side of the board) can make
the RCD more liable to trip if it is a neutral earth fault.

Before buying a tester you might be better off checking behind every socket
in the house (you have found one potential fault) and seeing how things run
for a while.

Adam


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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

ARWadsworth wrote:
"Bear" wrote in message
...
On Jun 25, 8:07 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bear wrote:
Brief description of problem.
Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.
In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB.

Not true.

Any device that DOES draw power anywhere near a neutralearth short
will trip one.

I have the same problem more or less isolated to one ring thats been
extended..anything on a section that one trips the house.

I must get down to fixing it..


Ok - more information:
Consumer unit is a Crabtree Starbreaker. The RCCB (labelled as such)
is split load 63A/30ma (363/S030). The 3 MCBs it protects are 2x 61/
B32 MCBs and 1x 61/B20. The latter is for the extractor fan only. The
other 2 - 1 is for all of the sockets except the kitchen, the other is
the kitchen. I've pulled a few sockets apart tonight in the kitchen
but all connections are tight and no signs of problems; except the
freezer. The live connection wasn't tight and there's a small nick in
the wire which could have connected to the securing screw for the
socket. Doubt this is an issue though.

Next steps - source an earth leak tester cheap on the net and test all
sockets. At the weekend scour the attic for dead/decaying vermin which
may have chewed a cable (beginning to seem like the most applicable
option).

One thing still puzzles me - 2 nights ago it tripped minutes after
boiling a full kettle. Same thing happened when trying this process 5
minutes later. Eventually plugging in the kettle just tripped the
sockets (as soon as the kettle was placed on its base) repeatedly -
even tried sockets in the living room. Hence replaced kettle following
day. That morning tripped around 1am.

I've moved the kettle away from the combi boiler - maybe the steam was
getting inside unseen?


I would not call small nick in a cable insignificant.
I have discovered that to be the most common fault of RCDs tripping.

When trying to find faults like this it is worth remembering that extra
loads (and that includes loads on the non RCD side of the board) can make
the RCD more liable to trip if it is a neutral earth fault.

Before buying a tester you might be better off checking behind every socket
in the house (you have found one potential fault) and seeing how things run
for a while.

Adam


We got a split load board after a neutral to earth fault lost us all
power until it was traced. Problem with neutral earth faults is that
switching off individual circuits does not help to isolate the cause.

I would guess there is an underlying problem which puts the system on
the edge all the time.
Is it the same side of the CU that trips every time? If so trip could be
super sensitive. Can substitution be tried?
Can the trip be reset first time immediately after it trips? I would not
have thought this likely if the cause was very obvious transitory damp.
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Posts: 32
Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On Jun 26, 8:19*am, Invisible Man wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
"Bear" wrote in message
....
On Jun 25, 8:07 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bear wrote:
Brief description of problem.
Electric sockets only are tripping randomly - happened four times
since moving into our new property on 22/5/09. The first time was two
days after moving in, when barely anything was plugged in. The house
was rewired a couple of years ago and the previous occupants state
they had a similar problem, but it only happened to them a couple of
times in the 2 1/2 years they were there. The most recent trip was at
1am this morning. When it trips, only the electrical sockets in the
house are knocked out.
In locating the fault, I'm making some assumptions: chiefly that if
all of the sockets are turned off (ie. no device is consuming power),
its unlikely that anything could trip the RCB.
Not true.


Any device that DOES draw power anywhere near a neutralearth short
will trip one.


I have the same problem more or less isolated to one ring thats been
extended..anything on a section that one trips the house.


I must get down to fixing it..


Ok - more information:
Consumer unit is a Crabtree Starbreaker. The RCCB (labelled as such)
is split load 63A/30ma (363/S030). The 3 MCBs it protects are 2x 61/
B32 MCBs and 1x 61/B20. The latter is for the extractor fan only. The
other 2 - 1 is for all of the sockets except the kitchen, the other is
the kitchen. I've pulled a few sockets apart tonight in the kitchen
but all connections are tight and no signs of problems; except the
freezer. The live connection wasn't tight and there's a small nick in
the wire which could have connected to the securing screw for the
socket. Doubt this is an issue though.


Next steps - source an earth leak tester cheap on the net and test all
sockets. At the weekend scour the attic for dead/decaying vermin which
may have chewed a cable (beginning to seem like the most applicable
option).


One thing still puzzles me - 2 nights ago it tripped minutes after
boiling a full kettle. Same thing happened when trying this process 5
minutes later. Eventually plugging in the kettle just tripped the
sockets (as soon as the kettle was placed on its base) repeatedly -
even tried sockets in the living room. Hence replaced kettle following
day. That morning tripped around 1am.


I've moved the kettle away from the combi boiler - maybe the steam was
getting inside unseen?


I would not call small nick in a cable insignificant.
I have discovered that to be the most common fault of RCDs tripping.


When trying to find faults like this it is worth remembering that extra
loads (and that includes loads on the non RCD side of the board) can make
the RCD more liable to trip if it is a neutral earth fault.


Before buying a tester you might be better off checking behind every socket
in the house (you have found one potential fault) and seeing how things run
for a while.


Adam


We got a split load board after a neutral to earth fault lost us all
power until it was traced. Problem with neutral earth faults is that
switching off individual circuits does not help to isolate the cause.

I would guess there is an underlying problem which puts the system on
the edge all the time.
Is it the same side of the CU that trips every time? If so trip could be
super sensitive. Can substitution be tried?
Can the trip be reset first time immediately after it trips? I would not
have thought this likely if the cause was very obvious transitory damp.


I have checked around 1/2 the sockets in the kitchen but will check
the remaining ones this weekend. Yes it is the same side of the CU
that trips every time - only the sockets and cooker hood appear to be
protected by the RCB. As for substitution I'm not entirely certain
what you mean.

The trip can be reset first time after a trip, but last night I
switched off the MCBs and then the RCB and unplugged all appliances.
Then I switched on the RCB and MCBs. No problem until I started to
plug in devices. As more were plugged in the RCB tripped (I couldn't
isolate it down to either a device or socket). Resetting the trip
wasn't always possible first time - some times I had to wait 10
seconds or more before it would reset.
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Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

In article
,
Bear wrote:
The trip can be reset first time after a trip, but last night I
switched off the MCBs and then the RCB and unplugged all appliances.
Then I switched on the RCB and MCBs. No problem until I started to
plug in devices. As more were plugged in the RCB tripped (I couldn't
isolate it down to either a device or socket). Resetting the trip
wasn't always possible first time - some times I had to wait 10
seconds or more before it would reset.


Have you got an ordinary DVM? If so try measuring the resistance between
earth pin and neutral, earth pin and line on all the suspect appliances.
Obviously with them unplugged - but switched on if they have a switch on
them. And report the results. Not as good as using an insulation tester -
but can often show a fault.

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 32
Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

On Jun 26, 12:05*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *Bear wrote:

The trip can be reset first time after a trip, but last night I
switched off the MCBs and then the RCB and unplugged all appliances.
Then I switched on the RCB and MCBs. No problem until I started to
plug in devices. As more were plugged in the RCB tripped (I couldn't
isolate it down to either a device or socket). Resetting the trip
wasn't always possible first time - some times I had to wait 10
seconds or more before it would reset.


Have you got an ordinary DVM? If so try measuring the resistance between
earth *pin and neutral, earth pin and line on all the suspect appliances.
Obviously with them unplugged - but switched on if they have a switch on
them. And report the results. Not as good as using an insulation tester -
but can often show a fault.

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake. *

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Excellent idea. I do have a DVM - will try this upon returning home
this evening.


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Posts: 25,191
Default Electric sockets tripping - mystery! Need help finding solution

Bear wrote:
On Jun 26, 12:05 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
Bear wrote:

The trip can be reset first time after a trip, but last night I
switched off the MCBs and then the RCB and unplugged all appliances.
Then I switched on the RCB and MCBs. No problem until I started to
plug in devices. As more were plugged in the RCB tripped (I couldn't
isolate it down to either a device or socket). Resetting the trip
wasn't always possible first time - some times I had to wait 10
seconds or more before it would reset.

Have you got an ordinary DVM? If so try measuring the resistance between
earth pin and neutral, earth pin and line on all the suspect appliances.
Obviously with them unplugged - but switched on if they have a switch on
them. And report the results. Not as good as using an insulation tester -
but can often show a fault.

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Excellent idea. I do have a DVM - will try this upon returning home
this evening.


If you feel comfortable working in the CU, then you can also test for E
N shorts in the circuit that way as well. With everything disconnected
(i.e. unplugged) from the circuit, disconnect all wires of both ends of
the ring circuit, and measure resistance (with the meter on its highest
range) between the various ends. You should be able to verify that there
is no shorts between any conductor. You can also verify that you have
ring continuity between both ends of each conductor while you are at it
(low ohms range). If you can gustimate the circuit length you can
compare the results with:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?... istance_table



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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