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Water ingress problems around French windows.



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 19th 09, 05:04 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 51
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.


Greetings,

My son and his wife have been renovating a 1930s detached house which
they recently purchased, and they have had an early double-glazed
sliding patio door replaced by a modern double-glazed pair of French
doors (installed by Sutton Windows). When this was done the window
installers noticed that the old door had been inset further than it
should have been, and that some bricks on either side had been hacked
away in order to accommodate it.

The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
correct size for the aperture but, in order to fit them properly
(i.e.flush with the back of the house) and fill the space where the
bricks had been damaged, the installers used expanding foam to effect a
seal. (BTW, in the picture, the horizontal scar above the first row of
painted bricks is where an external lighting cable originally ran. That
cable has been removed and any holes filled.)

When the house was bought, the mortgage surveyor found no trace of
damp around the patio doors. However, a specialist surveyor did claim
to find rising damp. Consequently, the plaster to either side of the
doors inside the lounge was stripped off to a height of about a metre,
then the walls were treated, coated with moisture-resistant plaster, and
given a new top coat of plaster.

Unfortunately, when it rains hard it is not long before a wet patch
appears on the fresh plaster near the top of the door's reveal (see
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/WaterIngress.jpg). If the rain continues,
then the patch spreads down the wall over the hours which follow.

Several attempts have already been made to try and stop the water
ingress. Damaged bricks and mortar have had exterior filler applied,
while thick waterproof sealant has been inserted above the corballed
line of bricks where long-standing crack was present. Although the
pattern of the wet patch has changed, water still gets in after a rain
storm and shows through the plaster. Obviously decoration of the
affected area is impossible until the problem has been fixed properly.

Can anyone in the NG offer any suggestions about what can be done next
to diagnose where the water is coming in and how to fix this annoying
problem?

Many thanks for reading this posting.

--
David C.Chapman - )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  #2  
Old February 19th 09, 05:14 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,066
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.

"David Chapman" wrote in message
...

Greetings,

My son and his wife have been renovating a 1930s detached house which
they recently purchased, and they have had an early double-glazed sliding
patio door replaced by a modern double-glazed pair of French doors
(installed by Sutton Windows). When this was done the window installers
noticed that the old door had been inset further than it should have been,
and that some bricks on either side had been hacked away in order to
accommodate it.

The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
correct size for the aperture but, in order to fit them properly
(i.e.flush with the back of the house) and fill the space where the bricks
had been damaged, the installers used expanding foam to effect a seal.
(BTW, in the picture, the horizontal scar above the first row of painted
bricks is where an external lighting cable originally ran. That cable has
been removed and any holes filled.)

When the house was bought, the mortgage surveyor found no trace of damp
around the patio doors. However, a specialist surveyor did claim to find
rising damp. Consequently, the plaster to either side of the doors inside
the lounge was stripped off to a height of about a metre, then the walls
were treated, coated with moisture-resistant plaster, and given a new top
coat of plaster.

Unfortunately, when it rains hard it is not long before a wet patch
appears on the fresh plaster near the top of the door's reveal (see
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/WaterIngress.jpg). If the rain continues,
then the patch spreads down the wall over the hours which follow.

Several attempts have already been made to try and stop the water ingress.
Damaged bricks and mortar have had exterior filler applied, while thick
waterproof sealant has been inserted above the corballed line of bricks
where long-standing crack was present. Although the pattern of the wet
patch has changed, water still gets in after a rain storm and shows
through the plaster. Obviously decoration of the affected area is
impossible until the problem has been fixed properly.

Can anyone in the NG offer any suggestions about what can be done next to
diagnose where the water is coming in and how to fix this annoying
problem?


It's difficult to say without a closer inspection/close up pictures of the
exterior around and above the damp area.

One diagnostic you could try is wetting the wall with a hose to a limited
height, waiting to see if the damp appears, then trying a bit higher etc.
Once the damp appears you have a better idea of where it is getting in and
can then narrow the search down a bit.

Expanding foam is for filling gaps and for fixing in position at best. It is
not a seal.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


  #3  
Old February 19th 09, 06:08 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 273
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:14:50 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

"David Chapman" wrote in message
...

Greetings,

My son and his wife have been renovating a 1930s detached house which
they recently purchased, and they have had an early double-glazed sliding
patio door replaced by a modern double-glazed pair of French doors
(installed by Sutton Windows). When this was done the window installers
noticed that the old door had been inset further than it should have been,
and that some bricks on either side had been hacked away in order to
accommodate it.

The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
correct size for the aperture but, in order to fit them properly
(i.e.flush with the back of the house) and fill the space where the bricks
had been damaged, the installers used expanding foam to effect a seal.
(BTW, in the picture, the horizontal scar above the first row of painted
bricks is where an external lighting cable originally ran. That cable has
been removed and any holes filled.)

When the house was bought, the mortgage surveyor found no trace of damp
around the patio doors. However, a specialist surveyor did claim to find
rising damp. Consequently, the plaster to either side of the doors inside
the lounge was stripped off to a height of about a metre, then the walls
were treated, coated with moisture-resistant plaster, and given a new top
coat of plaster.

Unfortunately, when it rains hard it is not long before a wet patch
appears on the fresh plaster near the top of the door's reveal (see
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/WaterIngress.jpg). If the rain continues,
then the patch spreads down the wall over the hours which follow.

Several attempts have already been made to try and stop the water ingress.
Damaged bricks and mortar have had exterior filler applied, while thick
waterproof sealant has been inserted above the corballed line of bricks
where long-standing crack was present. Although the pattern of the wet
patch has changed, water still gets in after a rain storm and shows
through the plaster. Obviously decoration of the affected area is
impossible until the problem has been fixed properly.

Can anyone in the NG offer any suggestions about what can be done next to
diagnose where the water is coming in and how to fix this annoying
problem?


It's difficult to say without a closer inspection/close up pictures of the
exterior around and above the damp area.

One diagnostic you could try is wetting the wall with a hose to a limited
height, waiting to see if the damp appears, then trying a bit higher etc.
Once the damp appears you have a better idea of where it is getting in and
can then narrow the search down a bit.

Expanding foam is for filling gaps and for fixing in position at best. It is
not a seal.


I'd take a close look at the mastic around the frame too. It only
needs a pinhole to start wicking water through
  #4  
Old February 19th 09, 06:34 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,918
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.

Alang wrote:
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:14:50 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

"David Chapman" wrote in message
...
Greetings,

My son and his wife have been renovating a 1930s detached house which
they recently purchased, and they have had an early double-glazed sliding
patio door replaced by a modern double-glazed pair of French doors
(installed by Sutton Windows). When this was done the window installers
noticed that the old door had been inset further than it should have been,
and that some bricks on either side had been hacked away in order to
accommodate it.

The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
correct size for the aperture but, in order to fit them properly
(i.e.flush with the back of the house) and fill the space where the bricks
had been damaged, the installers used expanding foam to effect a seal.
(BTW, in the picture, the horizontal scar above the first row of painted
bricks is where an external lighting cable originally ran. That cable has
been removed and any holes filled.)

When the house was bought, the mortgage surveyor found no trace of damp
around the patio doors. However, a specialist surveyor did claim to find
rising damp. Consequently, the plaster to either side of the doors inside
the lounge was stripped off to a height of about a metre, then the walls
were treated, coated with moisture-resistant plaster, and given a new top
coat of plaster.

Unfortunately, when it rains hard it is not long before a wet patch
appears on the fresh plaster near the top of the door's reveal (see
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/WaterIngress.jpg). If the rain continues,
then the patch spreads down the wall over the hours which follow.

Several attempts have already been made to try and stop the water ingress.
Damaged bricks and mortar have had exterior filler applied, while thick
waterproof sealant has been inserted above the corballed line of bricks
where long-standing crack was present. Although the pattern of the wet
patch has changed, water still gets in after a rain storm and shows
through the plaster. Obviously decoration of the affected area is
impossible until the problem has been fixed properly.

Can anyone in the NG offer any suggestions about what can be done next to
diagnose where the water is coming in and how to fix this annoying
problem?

It's difficult to say without a closer inspection/close up pictures of the
exterior around and above the damp area.

One diagnostic you could try is wetting the wall with a hose to a limited
height, waiting to see if the damp appears, then trying a bit higher etc.
Once the damp appears you have a better idea of where it is getting in and
can then narrow the search down a bit.

Expanding foam is for filling gaps and for fixing in position at best. It is
not a seal.


I'd take a close look at the mastic around the frame too. It only
needs a pinhole to start wicking water through


What I've done in the past is hack off an inch or so round the frame,
and fill any obvious cavities with foam. I then put some greased (25mm
wide?)strips of hardboard against the frame and re-render up to them.
Slip them out when the render is dry and you have a nice 3mm gap for a
bead of low modulus silicone.
Not always easy to pinpoint the source based on the position of the damp
patches.
  #5  
Old February 19th 09, 06:53 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19,658
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.

In article ,
David Chapman wrote:
The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
correct size for the aperture but, in order to fit them properly
(i.e.flush with the back of the house) and fill the space where the
bricks had been damaged, the installers used expanding foam to effect a
seal. (BTW, in the picture, the horizontal scar above the first row of
painted bricks is where an external lighting cable originally ran. That
cable has been removed and any holes filled.)


Windows or doors which are flush with the outside of a wall require a good
seal between bricks and frame. And between doors and frame too, come to
that.

Any foam used for gap filling should be cut back and a cement fillet added
between bricks and frame. Then a silicone bead between fillet and frame.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #6  
Old February 19th 09, 08:11 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 273
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:34:13 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

Alang wrote:
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:14:50 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

"David Chapman" wrote in message
...
Greetings,

My son and his wife have been renovating a 1930s detached house which
they recently purchased, and they have had an early double-glazed sliding
patio door replaced by a modern double-glazed pair of French doors
(installed by Sutton Windows). When this was done the window installers
noticed that the old door had been inset further than it should have been,
and that some bricks on either side had been hacked away in order to
accommodate it.

The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
correct size for the aperture but, in order to fit them properly




One diagnostic you could try is wetting the wall with a hose to a limited
height, waiting to see if the damp appears, then trying a bit higher etc.
Once the damp appears you have a better idea of where it is getting in and
can then narrow the search down a bit.

Expanding foam is for filling gaps and for fixing in position at best. It is
not a seal.


I'd take a close look at the mastic around the frame too. It only
needs a pinhole to start wicking water through


What I've done in the past is hack off an inch or so round the frame,
and fill any obvious cavities with foam. I then put some greased (25mm
wide?)strips of hardboard against the frame and re-render up to them.
Slip them out when the render is dry and you have a nice 3mm gap for a
bead of low modulus silicone.
Not always easy to pinpoint the source based on the position of the damp
patches.


I had one on my bay window when we moved in. Tiny crack in the
flashing at one end and water stain right in the middle
  #7  
Old February 19th 09, 11:12 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 204
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.

On Feb 19, 4:04*pm, David Chapman wrote:
Greetings,

* *My son and his wife have been renovating a 1930s detached house which
they recently purchased, and they have had an early double-glazed
sliding patio door replaced by a modern double-glazed pair of French
doors (installed by Sutton Windows). *When this was done the window
installers noticed that the old door had been inset further than it
should have been, and that some bricks on either side had been hacked
away in order to accommodate it.

* *The new doors (see the picture athttp://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
correct size for the aperture but, in order to fit them properly
(i.e.flush with the back of the house) and fill the space where the
bricks had been damaged, the installers used expanding foam to effect a
seal. (BTW, in the picture, the horizontal scar above the first row of
painted bricks is where an external lighting cable originally ran. That
cable has been removed and any holes filled.)

* *When the house was bought, the mortgage surveyor found no trace of
damp around the patio doors. *However, a specialist surveyor did claim
to find rising damp. *Consequently, the plaster to either side of the
doors inside the lounge was stripped off to a height of about a metre,
then the walls were treated, coated with moisture-resistant plaster, and
given a new top coat of plaster.

* *Unfortunately, when it rains hard it is not long before a wet patch
appears on the fresh plaster near the top of the door's reveal (seehttp://www.minda.co.uk/dave/WaterIngress.jpg). *If the rain continues,
then the patch spreads down the wall over the hours which follow.

Several attempts have already been made to try and stop the water
ingress. Damaged bricks and mortar have had exterior filler applied,
while thick waterproof sealant has been inserted above the corballed
line of bricks where long-standing crack was present. *Although the
pattern of the wet patch has changed, water still gets in after a rain
storm and shows through the plaster. *Obviously decoration of the
affected area is impossible until the problem has been fixed properly.

Can anyone in the NG offer any suggestions about what can be done next
to diagnose where the water is coming in and how to fix this annoying
problem?

* * Many thanks for reading this posting.

--
David C.Chapman - )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


There are two possibilities; the doorframe should be recessed back
from the front of the external brickwork NOT flush and covered with a
strip of plastic architrave. From looking at the photo, the brickwork
above the head of the frame as saged. There should be a steel catnic
lintel above the frame and the brickwork realigned. I would as one of
the other mailers suggests, use a hose pipe and spray the brickwork
above, as this is the other weak spot for the ingress of rain.

Keith
  #8  
Old February 20th 09, 12:58 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 855
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.


David Chapman wrote in message
...

The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
Unfortunately, when it rains hard it is not long before a wet patch
appears on the fresh plaster near the top of the door's reveal (see
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/WaterIngress.jpg). If the rain continues,
then the patch spreads down the wall over the hours which follow.


I think the water is coming down inside the cavity from the window above.


-

  #9  
Old February 20th 09, 09:20 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,066
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.

"Mark" wrote in message
om...

David Chapman wrote in message
...

The new doors (see the picture at
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/HouseBack.jpg) were manufactured to the
Unfortunately, when it rains hard it is not long before a wet patch
appears on the fresh plaster near the top of the door's reveal (see
http://www.minda.co.uk/dave/WaterIngress.jpg). If the rain continues,
then the patch spreads down the wall over the hours which follow.


I think the water is coming down inside the cavity from the window above.


It's one possibility - how you can say that that is what *is* happening from
the photos is a mystery to me!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


  #10  
Old February 20th 09, 09:50 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 51
Default Water ingress problems around French windows.


Very many thanks to those who have already taken the time to reply to
my posting and to any other readers who will be doing so.

Your suggestions are most useful and gratefully received. In due
course I'll report back to this group on what progress we've made.

ATB - Dave

--
David C.Chapman - )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 




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