Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs


Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

"Osprey" wrote in message
...
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs


Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?




What you have planned is nice. All your joints should be morticed, with
pins or dowels through them for a bit of added strength. Glueing all the
joints is not necessary, in my opinion, as the joints should be left to
weather and move. Fixing them will cause cracking and splintering. If you
want joint fills, use silicone, which allows the joints to expand and
contract with the temperature variations. It might say weather-proof on the
glue pot, but the timber itself isn't.

The cross bracing should be inset to both the horizontal and vertical
timbers. Remember the 3 X 4 X 5 method of finding the angle. The
hypotenuse is equal to the square of the other two sides. So find the right
angle (3 X 3 = 9, 4 X 4 = 16, 9 + 16 = 25. 5 X 5 = 25). The corner of your
bracing should be following the angle of cut. Which means the mortice from
the horizontal into the vertical is extended by the mortice tongue of the
brace lap. Which then means, more on the vertical than the horizontal to
get a nice tight secure joint.

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/timberjoints1.htm Might help explain
it.

You might also think about a sacrificial timber on the bottom of the doors.
Something that can be replaced when they start to rot through. It helps to
have something that is easy to remove and replace instead of having to cut
lumps off the doors to repair them. The bottoms of outside doors are
notorious for collecting rising damp from the ground and splashing, and you
might think paint is a good preventative, but it ain't. :-)

But your plans look good. They'll be nice when they're finished and hung.

What are you waiting on? Get on with it. LOL

You might also think about a sacrificial timber on the bottom of the doors.
Something that can be replaced when they start to rot through. It helps to
have something that is easy to remove and replace instead of having to cut
lumps off the doors to repair them. The bottoms of outside doors are
notorious for collecting rising damp from the ground and splashing, and you
might think paint is a good preventative, but it ain't. :-)

Interesting idea except that water tends to collect at the bottom of the
grooves, which would now presumably be above the sacrificial piece. A
design which overcame that, and didn't look odd, would be a real bonus

When the ol' man constructed a similar door he put the tongue on the
bottom rail and grooved the ends of the vertical T&G. That way
avoiding a water trap at the bottom.

On 2 Dec, 23:33, "BigWallop" wrote:



not to sure what you mean by
" ...The corner of your
bracing should be following the angle of cut. Which means the mortice
from
the horizontal into the vertical is extended by the mortice tongue of
the
brace lap. Which then means, more on the vertical than the horizontal
to
get a nice tight secure joint. ..."

But follow the point that there should be more on the vertical than
horiazontal.
Did look at the link, but could not realte any joint there to what you
were explaining ?



"

Great sketches! The diagonal braces should slope upward from the hanging
edge to the opening edge. This puts them in compression as the door settles
under its weight. You got it right in the first sketch looking from the
outside, but on the inside drawings the braces slope the wrong way.

On 3 Dec, 14:57, "Peter Taylor" wrote:
Great sketches! *The diagonal braces should slope upward from the hanging
edge to the opening edge. *This puts them in compression as the door settles
under its weight. *You got it right in the first sketch looking from the
outside, but on the inside drawings the braces slope the wrong way. *

fair comment ... you are right of course.
I just used cut and paste & forgot to reverse ... I'll update the
drawing

In article
,
Osprey writes
On 3 Dec, 14:57, "Peter Taylor" wrote:
Great sketches! *The diagonal braces should slope upward from the hanging
edge to the opening edge. *This puts them in compression as the door settles
under its weight. *You got it right in the first sketch looking from the
outside, but on the inside drawings the braces slope the wrong way. *

fair comment ... you are right of course.
I just used cut and paste & forgot to reverse ... I'll update the
drawing

Yep, Rick beat me to it.

My thoughts are that the diagonal brace looks a bit light as it will be
the main member stopping the unsupported end of the door dropping. I
know you'll get extra strength from the glued tongues but it would be
nice if the frame was self supporting just with the braces.
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

Osprey wrote:
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs


Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

I made a pair of similar size around 15 - 20 years ago which are still going
strong. If you can cut the timber square at the ends you can laminate the
frame with half lap joints by just using the timber, no need to trench.

I hope the drawing makes things clear
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...otos/joint.jpg

I made up an 'inner' frame with 119 x 18 and an 'outer' of 94 x 18 which
gives a rebate of 25mm - and you don't need to cut that either. Overall
thickness of frame is 36mm. Plenty of glue area, a few screws & Robert is
your fathers brother. Quick & simple.

Filled in the middle with shiplap.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


Can't recall if I braced it or not, I'd pop out & have a look if it wasn't
so cold.

"Osprey" wrote in message
...
On 2 Dec, 23:33, "BigWallop" wrote:



not to sure what you mean by
" ...The corner of your
bracing should be following the angle of cut. Which means the mortice
from
the horizontal into the vertical is extended by the mortice tongue of
the
brace lap. Which then means, more on the vertical than the horizontal
to
get a nice tight secure joint. ..."

But follow the point that there should be more on the vertical than
horiazontal.
Did look at the link, but could not realte any joint there to what you
were explaining ?


On the vertical, the cross brace is cut to the angle you need. The length
needs to be longer so that the cross brace can be cut more into the side of
the end, than directly on the end of the timber. Like a sideways on mortice
on the end of the cross brace. But this has to be cut following the angle
of the cross bracing timber.

Another way of putting it is. The mortice tongue of the horizontal is being
extended down the vertical by the tongue of the cross brace. So both the
horizontal and cross brace fit into the same long hole in the vertical
timber.

On this page http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/timberjoints2.htm You
will see the where the tenon is being cut at right angles on the end of the
timber, which is fine for the horizontal brace. The tenon you need on the
cross brace has to be cut to follow the angle of the cross brace, so the
angle on the end of the timber should match that angle that the final cross
brace will be at. So the tenon pushes into the vertical timber, sideways.

It is difficult to explain. Hang on. I'll come down there and show you
what I mean. :-) LOL

On 3 Dec, 19:21, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Osprey wrote:
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 *(82”) and width 3302 (130”) *for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
* *http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: *http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawinghttp://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. * *See:http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

I made a pair of similar size around 15 - 20 years ago which are still going
strong. *If you can cut the timber square at the ends you can laminate the
frame with half lap joints by just using the timber, no need to trench.

I hope the drawing makes things clearhttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/davidlang_photos/joint.jpg

I made up an 'inner' frame with 119 x 18 and an 'outer' of 94 x 18 which
gives a rebate of 25mm - and you don't need to cut that either. *Overall
thickness of frame is 36mm. *Plenty of glue area, a few screws & Robert is
your fathers brother. *Quick & simple.

Filled in the middle with shiplap.

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Can't recall if I braced it or not, I'd pop out & have a look if it wasn't
so cold.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

what did you put in the frame, was it t&g or ply ?

Osprey wrote:
On 3 Dec, 19:21, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Osprey wrote:
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been
building a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car
port, other is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and
fit a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as
per this pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are
in the drawinghttp://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal
support & verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in
some carpentry books. See:http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

I made a pair of similar size around 15 - 20 years ago which are
still going
strong. If you can cut the timber square at the ends you can
laminate the
frame with half lap joints by just using the timber, no need to
trench.

I hope the drawing makes things
clearhttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/davidlang_photos/joint.jpg

I made up an 'inner' frame with 119 x 18 and an 'outer' of 94 x 18
which
gives a rebate of 25mm - and you don't need to cut that either.
Overall
thickness of frame is 36mm. Plenty of glue area, a few screws &
Robert is
your fathers brother. Quick & simple.

Filled in the middle with shiplap.

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Can't recall if I braced it or not, I'd pop out & have a look if it
wasn't
so cold.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

what did you put in the frame, was it t&g or ply ?

Shiplap T&G. I've looked and they arent braced, neither have they dropped
or gone out of square in 15+ tears.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk