[Robin]

Hullo uk.d-i-y world...

I have inherited an old Vaillant VC Gas boiler. It works OK, but the
'built-in' timer control is broken and no-one I know wants to touch it.
It's all going to be ripped out in about 18 months, so I want to do a
quick fix to get a timer control.

The boiler connects to the mains electric using a switch box. See the
picture at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7204575@N04/2852870557/

The switch box on the mid left is wired into the double socket above it.
The wire that comes out of the bottom of the switch box goes into the
boiler.

Would there be any issue if I removed the switch box and put a regular
plug on the wire instead?

If I did this I could put a timer on the plug (X10), insert into socket
and presto, I've got the boiler on a timer.

Aside: I had this all apart earlier today, the switch box had a 13amp
fuse, but the old manual for the Vaillant says the fuse should be 3amps,
so I've replaced the fuse and its working ok. This is right isn't it? A
gas boiler doesn't draw a lot of current, does it?

Thanks for any advice.

Regards
Robin

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
Robin .@. writes:
Hullo uk.d-i-y world...

I have inherited an old Vaillant VC Gas boiler. It works OK, but the
'built-in' timer control is broken and no-one I know wants to touch it.
It's all going to be ripped out in about 18 months, so I want to do a
quick fix to get a timer control.

The boiler connects to the mains electric using a switch box. See the
picture at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7204575@N04/2852870557/

The switch box on the mid left is wired into the double socket above it.
The wire that comes out of the bottom of the switch box goes into the
boiler.

Would there be any issue if I removed the switch box and put a regular
plug on the wire instead?

A couple of issues...

The socket should be an unswitched one if it has a fixed
gas appliance connected to it. Also I'm assuming the spur
is already wired correctly into it's supply.

The boiler may not like being routinely switched simply by
turning its mains supply on and off. That wouldn't allow a
pump run-on function to work, or any built-in frost protection,
or pump exerciser. (I don't know if your boiler has any of
these features.)

If I did this I could put a timer on the plug (X10), insert into socket
and presto, I've got the boiler on a timer.

Your boiler probably has a connection block to which a
timeswitch is supposed to be connected. Do you have the
installation manual for it (it's supposed to be left with
the boiler after installation and when a house changes
hands).

Aside: I had this all apart earlier today, the switch box had a 13amp
fuse, but the old manual for the Vaillant says the fuse should be 3amps,
so I've replaced the fuse and its working ok. This is right isn't it? A
gas boiler doesn't draw a lot of current, does it?

That's correct.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[John Rumm]

Robin wrote:

Would there be any issue if I removed the switch box and put a regular
plug on the wire instead?

If I did this I could put a timer on the plug (X10), insert into socket
and presto, I've got the boiler on a timer.

A simpler solution would be to replace your room thermostat with a
programmable one. This combines the functions of timer and thermostat
and also gives added control in that you can choose different target
temperatures for different times of the day.

Screwfix do a quite reasonable one for about £22.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Robin]

John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:

Would there be any issue if I removed the switch box and put a regular
plug on the wire instead?

If I did this I could put a timer on the plug (X10), insert into
socket and presto, I've got the boiler on a timer.

A simpler solution would be to replace your room thermostat with a
programmable one. This combines the functions of timer and thermostat
and also gives added control in that you can choose different target
temperatures for different times of the day.

Screwfix do a quite reasonable one for about £22.



Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I can
see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my other
options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues with my
simple plug timer plan.

Regards
Robin

[Robin]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Robin .@. writes:
Hullo uk.d-i-y world...

I have inherited an old Vaillant VC Gas boiler. It works OK, but the
'built-in' timer control is broken and no-one I know wants to touch it.
It's all going to be ripped out in about 18 months, so I want to do a
quick fix to get a timer control.

The boiler connects to the mains electric using a switch box. See the
picture at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7204575@N04/2852870557/

The switch box on the mid left is wired into the double socket above it.
The wire that comes out of the bottom of the switch box goes into the
boiler.

Would there be any issue if I removed the switch box and put a regular
plug on the wire instead?

A couple of issues...

The socket should be an unswitched one if it has a fixed
gas appliance connected to it. Also I'm assuming the spur
is already wired correctly into it's supply.

The boiler may not like being routinely switched simply by
turning its mains supply on and off. That wouldn't allow a
pump run-on function to work, or any built-in frost protection,
or pump exerciser. (I don't know if your boiler has any of
these features.)

If I did this I could put a timer on the plug (X10), insert into socket
and presto, I've got the boiler on a timer.

Your boiler probably has a connection block to which a
timeswitch is supposed to be connected. Do you have the
installation manual for it (it's supposed to be left with
the boiler after installation and when a house changes
hands).

Aside: I had this all apart earlier today, the switch box had a 13amp
fuse, but the old manual for the Vaillant says the fuse should be 3amps,
so I've replaced the fuse and its working ok. This is right isn't it? A
gas boiler doesn't draw a lot of current, does it?

That's correct.



Thanks for your help. I suspected my plan was a bit too simple, and
you've confirmed it.

I do have a manual, a connection block and a timeswitch. Unfortunately,
the manual doesn't describe the connection of the timeswitch in a way
that I can find (or perhaps understand).

I'm going to have another go at reading the f* manual, maybe I'll get it
with a bit more study.

Thanks again.

Robin

[John Rumm]

Robin wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:

Would there be any issue if I removed the switch box and put a
regular plug on the wire instead?

If I did this I could put a timer on the plug (X10), insert into
socket and presto, I've got the boiler on a timer.

A simpler solution would be to replace your room thermostat with a
programmable one. This combines the functions of timer and thermostat
and also gives added control in that you can choose different target
temperatures for different times of the day.

Screwfix do a quite reasonable one for about £22.



Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I can
see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my other
options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues with my
simple plug timer plan.

In which case this seems like an ideal opportunity to add one. Generally
very easy to do. If you don't fancy running a cable to the stat position
then you can even get wireless stats.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Robin]

John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:

Would there be any issue if I removed the switch box and put a
regular plug on the wire instead?

If I did this I could put a timer on the plug (X10), insert into
socket and presto, I've got the boiler on a timer.

A simpler solution would be to replace your room thermostat with a
programmable one. This combines the functions of timer and thermostat
and also gives added control in that you can choose different target
temperatures for different times of the day.

Screwfix do a quite reasonable one for about £22.



Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I
can see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my
other options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues
with my simple plug timer plan.

In which case this seems like an ideal opportunity to add one. Generally
very easy to do. If you don't fancy running a cable to the stat position
then you can even get wireless stats.


Thanks. I'm going to pursue this a bit.

Now I just need to find out what the (undocumented) 25 year old control
panel is doing.

(See new post in this group).

- Robin

[John Rumm]

Robin wrote:

Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I
can see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my
other options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues
with my simple plug timer plan.

In which case this seems like an ideal opportunity to add one.
Generally very easy to do. If you don't fancy running a cable to the
stat position then you can even get wireless stats.


Thanks. I'm going to pursue this a bit.

Now I just need to find out what the (undocumented) 25 year old control
panel is doing.


If you can get the existing control panel to set the boiler to run
continuously, then you can let the prog stat do all the work from there.
The timer becomes in effect redundant (although no harm in leaving it
there in circuit)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[[email protected]]

On Sep 16, 12:54*am, John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I
can see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my
other options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues
with my simple plug timer plan.

In which case this seems like an ideal opportunity to add one.
Generally very easy to do. If you don't fancy running a cable to the
stat position then you can even get wireless stats.

Thanks. I'm going to pursue this a bit.

Now I just need to find out what the (undocumented) 25 year old control
panel is doing.

If you can get the existing control panel to set the boiler to run
continuously, then you can let the prog stat do all the work from there.
The timer becomes in effect redundant (although no harm in leaving it
there in circuit)


If I understand the system correctly, that control box will control
the temp of the primary circuit. If this is so, then removing it,
wiring over its temp limits or setting the boiler to run continuously
would all be most unwise.

Ideally you want a timer & thermostat to control the supply that feeds
the main jet gas valve in the boiler. Most likely you need to design
your add on wiring from the ground up, ie think about exactly what
youre trying to control and wire things up to do that, WITHOUT
removing any of the key safety devices, such as the existing control
box's primary circuit temp control.

You'll only know for sure by looking for all electrical parts inside
and outside the boiler, and working out which does what. Until you can
be sure, it is not appropriate to remove what are likely to be safety
components on what looks like a crude system.

The original purchaser saved themsevles a few quid by not buying the
timer... I wonder how many times over that saving was gobbled by extra
fuel.


NT

[Robin]

wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:54 am, John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I
can see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my
other options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues
with my simple plug timer plan.
In which case this seems like an ideal opportunity to add one.
Generally very easy to do. If you don't fancy running a cable to the
stat position then you can even get wireless stats.
Thanks. I'm going to pursue this a bit.
Now I just need to find out what the (undocumented) 25 year old control
panel is doing.
If you can get the existing control panel to set the boiler to run
continuously, then you can let the prog stat do all the work from there.
The timer becomes in effect redundant (although no harm in leaving it
there in circuit)


If I understand the system correctly, that control box will control
the temp of the primary circuit. If this is so, then removing it,
wiring over its temp limits or setting the boiler to run continuously
would all be most unwise.

Ideally you want a timer & thermostat to control the supply that feeds
the main jet gas valve in the boiler. Most likely you need to design
your add on wiring from the ground up, ie think about exactly what
youre trying to control and wire things up to do that, WITHOUT
removing any of the key safety devices, such as the existing control
box's primary circuit temp control.

You'll only know for sure by looking for all electrical parts inside
and outside the boiler, and working out which does what. Until you can
be sure, it is not appropriate to remove what are likely to be safety
components on what looks like a crude system.

The original purchaser saved themsevles a few quid by not buying the
timer... I wonder how many times over that saving was gobbled by extra
fuel.


NT


Well...

The real odd thing is that I do have a timer!

It was connected to the boiler, not the "control box" (by control box I
guess you mean the picture of the thermo nuclear device).

For your amusement, I've uploaded a picture of the timer connected to
the boiler. I've removed the plate that covered these connections.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7204575@N04/2866071656/

On the terminal block, the timer is connected to terminals 7, 8 & 9. The
rating is 20v (obscured by the timer cable).

In the manual for the boiler, (and also on the cover plate for the
terminal block), it says "Do not use Terminals 7 to 12". !

I'll open the control box up at the weekend and see if there is anywhere
obvious to connect the timer.

Many thanks for all the comments.

- Robin

[Robin]

Robin wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:54 am, John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I
can see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my
other options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues
with my simple plug timer plan.
In which case this seems like an ideal opportunity to add one.
Generally very easy to do. If you don't fancy running a cable to the
stat position then you can even get wireless stats.
Thanks. I'm going to pursue this a bit.
Now I just need to find out what the (undocumented) 25 year old control
panel is doing.
If you can get the existing control panel to set the boiler to run
continuously, then you can let the prog stat do all the work from there.
The timer becomes in effect redundant (although no harm in leaving it
there in circuit)


If I understand the system correctly, that control box will control
the temp of the primary circuit. If this is so, then removing it,
wiring over its temp limits or setting the boiler to run continuously
would all be most unwise.

Ideally you want a timer & thermostat to control the supply that feeds
the main jet gas valve in the boiler. Most likely you need to design
your add on wiring from the ground up, ie think about exactly what
youre trying to control and wire things up to do that, WITHOUT
removing any of the key safety devices, such as the existing control
box's primary circuit temp control.

You'll only know for sure by looking for all electrical parts inside
and outside the boiler, and working out which does what. Until you can
be sure, it is not appropriate to remove what are likely to be safety
components on what looks like a crude system.

The original purchaser saved themsevles a few quid by not buying the
timer... I wonder how many times over that saving was gobbled by extra
fuel.


NT


Well...

The real odd thing is that I do have a timer!

It was connected to the boiler, not the "control box" (by control box I
guess you mean the picture of the thermo nuclear device).

For your amusement, I've uploaded a picture of the timer connected to
the boiler. I've removed the plate that covered these connections.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7204575@N04/2866071656/

On the terminal block, the timer is connected to terminals 7, 8 & 9. The
rating is 20v (obscured by the timer cable).

In the manual for the boiler, (and also on the cover plate for the
terminal block), it says "Do not use Terminals 7 to 12". !

I'll open the control box up at the weekend and see if there is anywhere
obvious to connect the timer.

Many thanks for all the comments.

- Robin


Sorry. For clarity I should add that the timer connection to the boiler
didn't work. It was also quite clearly left, by the previous owners, in
a state which indicated that it didn't work - randomly switched to go on
and off in at hourly intervals.

My guess was that they were very frustrated by it.

- Robin

[Geo[_2_]]

I can't help with your problem but the workmanship of the wiring is not
brilliant - was it modified by the previous owner?
Cable clamp on the black cable is not on the outer insulation, there is bare
wire showing on it's neutral terminal and the routing of the earth avoiding the
clamp seems odd.

Geo

[geoff]

In message , Robin
writes

Well...

The real odd thing is that I do have a timer!

It was connected to the boiler, not the "control box" (by control box I
guess you mean the picture of the thermo nuclear device).

For your amusement, I've uploaded a picture of the timer connected to
the boiler. I've removed the plate that covered these connections.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7204575@N04/2866071656/

Vaillant 242EH

On the terminal block, the timer is connected to terminals 7, 8 & 9.
The rating is 20v (obscured by the timer cable).

In the manual for the boiler, (and also on the cover plate for the
terminal block), it says "Do not use Terminals 7 to 12". !

They all say that sah

It's because thats low voltage and a) you would blow up the pcb if you
put mains on those connections


I'll open the control box up at the weekend and see if there is
anywhere obvious to connect the timer.

I really don't see what you need the control box for, a timer / room
stat to conns 3/4/5 is all you need to control the boiler

If you have a manual, its absolutely clear how you should be controlling
the boiler


--
geoff

[geoff]

In message , Robin
writes
Robin wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:54 am, John Rumm wrote:
Robin wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no room thermostat. At least not as far as I
can see. I'm going have a longer think about this and see what my
other options are. As another poster commented, there are some issues
with my simple plug timer plan.
In which case this seems like an ideal opportunity to add one.
Generally very easy to do. If you don't fancy running a cable to the
stat position then you can even get wireless stats.
Thanks. I'm going to pursue this a bit.
Now I just need to find out what the (undocumented) 25 year old control
panel is doing.
If you can get the existing control panel to set the boiler to run
continuously, then you can let the prog stat do all the work from there.
The timer becomes in effect redundant (although no harm in leaving it
there in circuit)


If I understand the system correctly, that control box will control
the temp of the primary circuit. If this is so, then removing it,
wiring over its temp limits or setting the boiler to run continuously
would all be most unwise.

Ideally you want a timer & thermostat to control the supply that feeds
the main jet gas valve in the boiler. Most likely you need to design
your add on wiring from the ground up, ie think about exactly what
youre trying to control and wire things up to do that, WITHOUT
removing any of the key safety devices, such as the existing control
box's primary circuit temp control.

You'll only know for sure by looking for all electrical parts inside
and outside the boiler, and working out which does what. Until you can
be sure, it is not appropriate to remove what are likely to be safety
components on what looks like a crude system.

The original purchaser saved themsevles a few quid by not buying the
timer... I wonder how many times over that saving was gobbled by extra
fuel.


NT
Well...
The real odd thing is that I do have a timer!
It was connected to the boiler, not the "control box" (by control
box I guess you mean the picture of the thermo nuclear device).
For your amusement, I've uploaded a picture of the timer connected
to the boiler. I've removed the plate that covered these connections.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7204575@N04/2866071656/
On the terminal block, the timer is connected to terminals 7, 8 & 9.
The rating is 20v (obscured by the timer cable).
In the manual for the boiler, (and also on the cover plate for the
terminal block), it says "Do not use Terminals 7 to 12". !
I'll open the control box up at the weekend and see if there is
anywhere obvious to connect the timer.
Many thanks for all the comments.
- Robin


Sorry. For clarity I should add that the timer connection to the boiler
didn't work. It was also quite clearly left, by the previous owners, in
a state which indicated that it didn't work - randomly switched to go
on and off in at hourly intervals.

Is it the timer that doesn't work, or the pcb ?

i.e. is the timer delivering a switched live

Just get rid of the strange box,

you want live, neutral and earth to the three left most connectors

you then need to connect up the next three connectors to a working time
clock / stat

thats all the connections you really need (well go and check, I might be
missing something)

--
geoff