I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.

Any more information needed?
Cheers
D

--
Jeweller
R100RT
Formerly: James Captain, A10, C15, B25, Dnepr M16 solo,
R80/7, R100RT (green!)
www.davidhowardjeweller.co.uk

On Aug 25, 6:15*pm, Jeweller wrote:
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.

Any more information needed?
Cheers
D

Classic stuff, this happens to lots of properties, and is usually
caused by incorrect maintenance. Part of the solution is removal of
the paint - certainly not by sandblasting thugh!

This explains more...
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777


NT

wrote:
On Aug 25, 6:15 pm, Jeweller wrote:
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.

Any more information needed?
Cheers
D

Classic stuff, this happens to lots of properties, and is usually
caused by incorrect maintenance. Part of the solution is removal of
the paint - certainly not by sandblasting thugh!

This explains more...
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777


NT

Thanks for that thread, it touches all the points I needed.

--
Jeweller
R100RT
Formerly: James Captain, A10, C15, B25, Dnepr M16 solo,
R80/7, R100RT (green!)
www.davidhowardjeweller.co.uk

In message , Jeweller
writes
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me with advice
about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest bit (C1720)
has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and it's these
walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for sand-blasting) and
the pointing is apparently intact but I'm happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick deep
walls.

Are you sure it is penetrating damp rather than condensation on a cold
surface?

A flat we let had just such a problem on a North facing uninsulated
cavity wall. It is likely our tenants are not allowing sufficient
heat/ventilation into the room during a wet, coldish Spring.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Jeweller wrote:
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.


Under normal conditions they would stay dry naturally - it's only the paint
that is causing the damp

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.

The facts appear to be:
1) This wall gets some severe weather, and over the years, the brickwork has
been badly affected, probably by rain / frost cycles.
2) Some braindead clown has painted the walls in the past, in an effort to
hide some of the badly affected parts, instead of cutting them out and
replacing some of the bricks as was required.
3) You are now lumbered with a damaged wall which is getting steadilly worse
and will continue to do so until it is completely overhauled, because the
paint traps moisture in the brickwork.

You now have several choices:
1) Patch up and repaint - 'make do and mend', which is only a temporary
measure, which is what has already occured, maybe several times
2) Completely overhaul the entire wall, which means complete removal of all
of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks, and finally repoint the whole thing.

On Aug 25, 11:03*pm, "Phil L" wrote:
Jeweller wrote:
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.

Under normal conditions they would stay dry naturally - it's only the paint
that is causing the damp

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.

The facts appear to be:
1) This wall gets some severe weather, and over the years, the brickwork has
been badly affected, probably by rain / frost cycles.
2) Some braindead clown has painted the walls in the past, in an effort to
hide some of the badly affected parts, instead of cutting them out and
replacing some of the bricks as was required.
3) You are now lumbered with a damaged wall which is getting steadilly worse
and will continue to do so until it is completely overhauled, because the
paint traps moisture in the brickwork.

You now have several choices:
1) Patch up and repaint - 'make do and mend', which is only a temporary
measure, which is what has already occured, maybe several times
2) Completely overhaul the entire wall, which means complete removal of all
of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks, and finally repoint the whole thing.

Mostly good advice, but

of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks,

that would be all the bricks, after you've sandblasted them. They're
soft 1800s bricks. Theres a water vortex thing that does the job, but
I dont recall the name.

When it comes to PP stuff it really is best to ask at that other
place.


NT

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:36:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

that would be all the bricks, after you've sandblasted them. They're
soft 1800s bricks. Theres a water vortex thing that does the job, but
I dont recall the name.

A couple of names Joss and Doff spring to mind. Is that the sort of
thing you mean? I've never used them or even seen them used mind you

Anna

--
Anna Kettle
Lime plaster repair and conservation
Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
Tel: ***(+44) *01359 230642
Mob: *(+44) *07976 649862
Please look at my website for examples of my work at:
www.kettlenet.co.uk *

On 25 Aug, 18:15, Jeweller wrote:
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.

Any more information needed?
Cheers
D

--
Jeweller
R100RT
Formerly: James Captain, A10, C15, B25, Dnepr M16 solo,
R80/7, R100RT (green!)www.davidhowardjeweller.co.uk

Dear D
There is one more possibility that has not been discussed and that is
the presence of hygroscopic salts in the internal plaster due to past
water penetration bringing them in. To test for this check on the
damp patches with a damp meter and see if they correlate not to the
rain (ie lateral penetration) but to the relative humidity which can
be high with no rain. I understand that the patches come and go with
the weather (rain) so you need to determine this.
If it is hygroscopicity your cure is to identify the locations (use a
pencil) over time - add a small margin for a factor of safety (say 150
mm but use commonsense) - and remove all such defective plaster and
repair with a similar plaster to the original. If it is lime then use
lime putty in tubs not bagged lime and mix up the mortar in a tub and
leave it for as long as you reasonably can (coars stuff) say 6 months
before using it. check for the presence of any hair acting as binder
and incorporate if you need to .

I was confused as to how thick the walls are. Three bricks deep is
massive and I would be suprised if you are getting penetration through
27" of brick. Are you sure that you do not mean 1.5 bricks (13.5")and
one brick (9") respectively? That is much more likely in the sort of
building you are describling.

When I was faced with exactly the same problem as you on soft red
rubbers which had been painted over by my previous owner so the outer
part of the brick had absorbed some of the paint and there were
pockets therein painted -I considered lots of options and tried
samples of all sorts of cleaners chemically and manually. None worked
and in the end I had no choice but to get to it with a dirty great
angle grinder with a face disc on it and took off the guard so I could
VERY carefully take off the outer 1mm or less of the brick. I was
told this would ruin the "face" of the brick and it would all degrade
in a few years. I could see no logic in this statement as the
material of the brick was not different on the face and 05 or 1.0 mm
in. After removal of the paint I hand rubbed each brick with sand
paper (orbital and hand sander) to remove disc marks and then
repointed it with tuck pointing using red brick dust as my sand for
the back of the tuck. I did the work some 25 plus years ago and it
looks as good now as it did then.
I endorse the other views on avoiding sandblasting and from my own
experience would urge you (unless you wish to risk getting extensive
dry rot in a couple of yeas) to avoid any high pressure water based
methods.
Good luck

Chris

The facts appear to be:
1) This wall gets some severe weather, and over the years, the brickwork has
been badly affected, probably by rain / frost cycles.
2) Some braindead clown has painted the walls in the past, in an effort to
hide some of the badly affected parts, instead of cutting them out and
replacing some of the bricks as was required.
3) You are now lumbered with a damaged wall which is getting steadilly worse
and will continue to do so until it is completely overhauled, because the
paint traps moisture in the brickwork.

You now have several choices:
1) Patch up and repaint - 'make do and mend', which is only a temporary
measure, which is what has already occured, maybe several times
2) Completely overhaul the entire wall, which means complete removal of all
of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks, and finally repoint the whole thing.




Option 1 can be more than temporary if you use a solvent based masonry
paint such as Johnstone's Storm Guard. I hate painted bricks as much as
anyone but option 2 may not be feasible for most people.
Paint doesn't hold water behind it if it's well bonded to the substrate
and produces a rain proof seal. The problem is that water based masonry
paint don't do this.

wrote:
On Aug 25, 11:03 pm, "Phil L" wrote:
Jeweller wrote:
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.
It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.
The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.
Under normal conditions they would stay dry naturally - it's only the paint
that is causing the damp

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.
The facts appear to be:
1) This wall gets some severe weather, and over the years, the brickwork has
been badly affected, probably by rain / frost cycles.
2) Some braindead clown has painted the walls in the past, in an effort to
hide some of the badly affected parts, instead of cutting them out and
replacing some of the bricks as was required.
3) You are now lumbered with a damaged wall which is getting steadilly worse
and will continue to do so until it is completely overhauled, because the
paint traps moisture in the brickwork.

You now have several choices:
1) Patch up and repaint - 'make do and mend', which is only a temporary
measure, which is what has already occured, maybe several times
2) Completely overhaul the entire wall, which means complete removal of all
of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks, and finally repoint the whole thing.

Mostly good advice, but

of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks,

that would be all the bricks, after you've sandblasted them. They're
soft 1800s bricks. Theres a water vortex thing that does the job, but
I dont recall the name.

When it comes to PP stuff it really is best to ask at that other
place.


NT

The other place is simply you spouting stuff you can't get away with on
here.

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Jeweller
writes
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me with
advice about our walls.

It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest bit
(C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and it's these
walls that are causing us some grief.

The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for sand-blasting)
and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm happy to be advised on
this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick deep walls.

Are you sure it is penetrating damp rather than condensation on a cold
surface?

A flat we let had just such a problem on a North facing uninsulated
cavity wall. It is likely our tenants are not allowing sufficient
heat/ventilation into the room during a wet, coldish Spring.

regards

Or rising damp due to Zero DPC and sodden ground, and boy has it been
sodden this year..

If uyour damp p[atches are all low down, - usually less than 4-5" off
the floor, that might be it.

If they are all high up, suspect guttering failure etc.

If it is penetrating, and you cant get the paint off, then put more on
to stop the water getting in.



As I repeat endlessly, there are two approaches to dry houses: stop the
moisture getting in, or help it get out easily.

Bad paint doesn't do the former, and prevents the latter ;-)

When I was faced with exactly the same problem as you on soft red
rubbers which had been painted over by my previous owner so the outer
part of the brick had absorbed some of the paint and there were
pockets therein painted -I considered lots of options and tried
samples of all sorts of cleaners chemically and manually. None worked
and in the end I had no choice but to get to it with a dirty great
angle grinder with a face disc on it and took off the guard so I could
VERY carefully take off the outer 1mm or less of the brick. I was
told this would ruin the "face" of the brick and it would all degrade
in a few years. I could see no logic in this statement as the
material of the brick was not different on the face and 05 or 1.0 mm
in.

I've never understood that either and my experience is the same as yours.

In article ,
stuart noble writes:


When I was faced with exactly the same problem as you on soft red
rubbers which had been painted over by my previous owner so the outer
part of the brick had absorbed some of the paint and there were
pockets therein painted -I considered lots of options and tried
samples of all sorts of cleaners chemically and manually. None worked
and in the end I had no choice but to get to it with a dirty great
angle grinder with a face disc on it and took off the guard so I could
VERY carefully take off the outer 1mm or less of the brick. I was
told this would ruin the "face" of the brick and it would all degrade
in a few years. I could see no logic in this statement as the
material of the brick was not different on the face and 05 or 1.0 mm
in.

I've never understood that either and my experience is the same as yours.

A couple of observations...

There are some bricks which have a different facing layer.
My parent's house it built with just such. I don't think
they are very common though.

The surface of some bricks can have an enhanced protection
against moisture due to the way they're fired. This came
up on my bricklaying course where we were warned not to
use the top or bottoms of bricks as weather-facing surfaces
unless you are sure the bricks were designed for this. These
surfaces do not in general have the enhanced protection
against moisture due to the way bricks are stacked in the
kiln. I guess you may get the same if you remove the outer
surface of such bricks.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Aug 26, 6:46*am, (Anna Kettle) wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:36:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
that would be all the bricks, after you've sandblasted them. They're
soft 1800s bricks. Theres a water vortex thing that does the job, but
I dont recall the name.

A couple of names Joss and Doff spring to mind. Is that the sort of
thing you mean? I've never used them or even seen them used mind you

Anna

Thank you Anna...
http://www.fmrestoration.com/torc.html


NT

On Aug 26, 9:19*am, stuart noble wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 25, 11:03 pm, "Phil L" wrote:
Jeweller wrote:
I'm hoping there's a specialist around here who can help me
with advice about our walls.
It's an old house built of brick with no cavity. The oldest
bit (C1720) has solid walls 3 bricks deep and mostly these
are OK.
A later addition (C1840) has walls only 2 bricks deep and
it's these walls that are causing us some grief.
The outside is painted, (the bricks are too soft for
sand-blasting) and the pointing is apparently intact but I'm
happy to be advised on this.
The wet summer has brought damp patches inside these 2 brick
deep walls.
I am loathe to try and seal the walls either outside or
inside, the seal only breaks down sooner or later.
I feel sure there must be a way that the insides were
prepared/treated that could cope with damp weather
conditions when these walls were originally built.
Under normal conditions they would stay dry naturally - it's only the paint
that is causing the damp

We do keep a trickle vent open in the windows and the rooms
do get heated when we have the central heating on.
It's not a permanent affliction, there's precious little
damp in normal weather conditions.
The facts appear to be:
1) This wall gets some severe weather, and over the years, the brickwork has
been badly affected, probably by rain / frost cycles.
2) Some braindead clown has painted the walls in the past, in an effort to
hide some of the badly affected parts, instead of cutting them out and
replacing some of the bricks as was required.
3) You are now lumbered with a damaged wall which is getting steadilly worse
and will continue to do so until it is completely overhauled, because the
paint traps moisture in the brickwork.

You now have several choices:
1) Patch up and repaint - 'make do and mend', which is only a temporary
measure, which is what has already occured, maybe several times
2) Completely overhaul the entire wall, which means complete removal of all
of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks, and finally repoint the whole thing.

Mostly good advice, but

of the paint by fair means or foul, IE sandblast the whole thing, then cut
out and replace any damaged bricks,

that would be all the bricks, after you've sandblasted them. They're
soft 1800s bricks. Theres a water vortex thing that does the job, but
I dont recall the name.

When it comes to PP stuff it really is best to ask at that other
place.

NT

The other place is simply you spouting stuff you can't get away with on
here.

for anyone reading if you ask there about whats discussed they can
point you to expert reports, SPAB etc. Its Stuart that cant be botherd
to get himself informed.


NT

On 26 Aug, 10:41, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * stuart noble writes:







When I was faced with exactly the same problem as you on soft red
rubbers which had been painted over by my previous owner so the outer
part of the brick had absorbed some of the paint and there were
pockets therein painted -I considered lots of options and tried
samples of all sorts of cleaners chemically and manually. None worked
and in the end I had no choice but to get to it with a dirty great
angle grinder with a face disc on it and took off the guard so I could
VERY carefully take off the outer 1mm or less of the brick. *I was
told this would ruin the "face" of the brick and it would all degrade
in *a few years. *I could see no logic in this statement as the
material of the brick was not different on the face and 05 or 1.0 *mm
in. *

I've never understood that either and my experience is the same as yours.

A couple of observations...

There are some bricks which have a different facing layer.
My parent's house it built with just such. I don't think
they are very common though.

The surface of some bricks can have an enhanced protection
against moisture due to the way they're fired. This came
up on my bricklaying course where we were warned not to
use the top or bottoms of bricks as weather-facing surfaces
unless you are sure the bricks were designed for this. These
surfaces do not in general have the enhanced protection
against moisture due to the way bricks are stacked in the
kiln. I guess you may get the same if you remove the outer
surface of such bricks.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks Andrew
That explains it! Someone advising generally when it is only
applicable to the specific.
Chris G

On Aug 26, 10:41*am, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
* * * * stuart noble writes:

When I was faced with exactly the same problem as you on soft red
rubbers which had been painted over by my previous owner so the outer
part of the brick had absorbed some of the paint and there were
pockets therein painted -I considered lots of options and tried
samples of all sorts of cleaners chemically and manually. None worked
and in the end I had no choice but to get to it with a dirty great
angle grinder with a face disc on it and took off the guard so I could
VERY carefully take off the outer 1mm or less of the brick. *I was
told this would ruin the "face" of the brick and it would all degrade
in *a few years. *I could see no logic in this statement as the
material of the brick was not different on the face and 05 or 1.0 *mm
in. *

I've never understood that either and my experience is the same as yours.

A couple of observations...

There are some bricks which have a different facing layer.
My parent's house it built with just such. I don't think
they are very common though.

The surface of some bricks can have an enhanced protection
against moisture due to the way they're fired. This came
up on my bricklaying course where we were warned not to
use the top or bottoms of bricks as weather-facing surfaces
unless you are sure the bricks were designed for this. These
surfaces do not in general have the enhanced protection
against moisture due to the way bricks are stacked in the
kiln. I guess you may get the same if you remove the outer
surface of such bricks.

IME old bricks are generally that way. Once the outer harder denser
fireskin has gone, gradual freeze thaw disintegration is likely.
You've only got to look round Victorian housing areas to see this
occurring.


NT