[Jim[_20_]]

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be
plastered over.

Cheers

Jim

[The Wanderer[_3_]]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be
plastered over.

No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger,
sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of
flex buried in the wall......

As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a
few other nasties.

--
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

[Jim[_20_]]

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to
be
plastered over.

No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger,
sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of
flex buried in the wall......

As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a
few other nasties.

What did you do to correct

--
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" wrote:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be
plastered over.

Cheers

Jim


Go to the next socket along and replace the existing cable with a
piece the correct length .

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-07-23 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" said:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be
plastered over.

Cheers

Jim

Yes.

You need to have some crimp connectors and a decent crimping tool.
Cut the outer jacket from the end of each cable to a length of about
40-50mm, then cut the conductors, staggering them. The idea is not to
have the crimp connectors all in one position. Put green/yellow
sleeving on the bare conductor of each and then crimp each conductor
into a barrel connector of the correct size.

Finally take some heatshrink sleeving, ideally with hot melt glue
already inside and then shrink it onto the cable assembly with a heat
gun.

This meets the electrical and mechanical requirements.

[John Rumm]

Jim wrote:
Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be
plastered over.

There is indeed. Described here in some detail:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Cable_crimping


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

[Tim S]

Andy Hall coughed up some electrons that declared:

On 2008-07-23 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" said:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to
be plastered over.

Cheers

Jim

Yes.

You need to have some crimp connectors and a decent crimping tool.

May I just add for the OP: "Decent" means a proper ratchet crimper with
compatible crimps.

Cheers

Tim

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-07-24 01:04:11 +0100, Tim S said:

Andy Hall coughed up some electrons that declared:

On 2008-07-23 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" said:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to
be plastered over.

Cheers

Jim

Yes.

You need to have some crimp connectors and a decent crimping tool.

May I just add for the OP: "Decent" means a proper ratchet crimper with
compatible crimps.

Cheers

Tim

Yes it does indeed. Looking at web sites such as TLC, it's about £20
for a ratchet job vs. £13 for without. The important point is getting
consistency. Crimps are about £3 for 100.

There are kits around with a tool plus assortment of crimps. The
trouble is that most have the simple, basic squeeze tool and the crimps
are not always that great. RS et al. do some decent ones with several
hundred crimps, but prices are gtting to the £100 range, which unless
one is going to use the crimps probably aren't worth it.
Nonetheless, I think that an electrical wholesaler like TLC or WF would
be the place to look for both the tool and the crimps as opposed to a
DIY store which will tend to sell the cheap non-ratchet kits.

[The Wanderer[_3_]]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:47:40 +0100, Jim wrote:

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to
be
plastered over.

No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger,
sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of
flex buried in the wall......

As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a
few other nasties.

What did you do to correct

Did away with the particular socket, which had been installed for an
aquarium which the previous owner had.

And the outside lights that had been wired off the back of a 13A socket in
flex.

And the two-way switching to a pool light that had connector strip in an
old plastic paint tub set into the paving around the pool and that was
actually full of water and still alive.

And the bare end of live cable I found in the loft that had been stripped,
the cores separated and then just left.

I could go on......



--
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

[Jim[_20_]]

Thanks to all

I have a ratchett crimper, connectors and heat shrink in the garage so looks
like I'm good to go.

Cheers

Jim

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-07-24 08:24:00 +0100, "Jim" said:

Thanks to all

I have a ratchett crimper, connectors and heat shrink in the garage so looks
like I'm good to go.

Cheers

Jim

Obviously test before you bury in plaster, but yes.

[Bruce[_4_]]

The Wanderer wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:47:40 +0100, Jim wrote:

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to
be
plastered over.

No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger,
sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of
flex buried in the wall......

As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a
few other nasties.

What did you do to correct

Did away with the particular socket, which had been installed for an
aquarium which the previous owner had.

And the outside lights that had been wired off the back of a 13A socket in
flex.

And the two-way switching to a pool light that had connector strip in an
old plastic paint tub set into the paving around the pool and that was
actually full of water and still alive.

And the bare end of live cable I found in the loft that had been stripped,
the cores separated and then just left.

I could go on......


So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as
several others have suggested?

[Andy Wade]

Andy Hall wrote:

Obviously test before you bury in plaster, but yes.

One final point - is the circuit RCD protected? Where a circuit is
extended the 17th edition wiring regs now apply to the new section, even
if it is only 6 in. long!

RCD protection (30 mA) is now required for all general-use 13 A sockets
and also for unprotected cables buried less then 50 mm deep in walls.
If the circuit is part of an older installation with no RCD then one
should, strictly speaking, be added.

--
Andy

[jgharston]

Andy Wade wrote:
RCD protection (30 mA) is now required for all general-use 13 A sockets
and also for unprotected cables buried less then 50 mm deep in walls.
If the circuit is part of an older installation with no RCD then one
should, strictly speaking, be added.

If the supply is RCD protected, does that count?

--
JGH - who doens't waht to throw away his well-thumbed 16th Ed.

[Andy Wade]

jgharston wrote:

If the supply is RCD protected, does that count?

What do you mean by "the supply"? If you mean the supply to the circuit
in question, i.e. there's an RCD in the consumer unit then yes, that's
exactly what's needed.

If you mean that there's whole-house 30 mA RCD, then that will satisfy
the requirements I mentioned for additional protection but it's
non-compliant in other respects, viz. the 314 group of regulations
(division of installation for safety and convenience, etc).

--
Andy

[The Wanderer[_3_]]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:31:57 +0100, Bruce wrote:

The Wanderer wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:47:40 +0100, Jim wrote:

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote:

Hi all

I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare
cable to play with.

Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to
be
plastered over.

No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger,
sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of
flex buried in the wall......

As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a
few other nasties.

What did you do to correct

Did away with the particular socket, which had been installed for an
aquarium which the previous owner had.

And the outside lights that had been wired off the back of a 13A socket in
flex.

And the two-way switching to a pool light that had connector strip in an
old plastic paint tub set into the paving around the pool and that was
actually full of water and still alive.

And the bare end of live cable I found in the loft that had been stripped,
the cores separated and then just left.

I could go on......


So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as
several others have suggested?

Did I say that? I think you're trying to put words in my mouth.

I have a personal aversion to joints in cable runs if its at all possible
to avoid them. All right, my experience is in power distribution, but u/g
cables per se don't go faulty, it's invariably the joints that fault.

--
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

[jgharston]

Andy Wade wrote:
jgharston wrote:
If the supply is RCD protected, does that count?

What do you mean by "the supply"? *If you mean the supply to the circuit
in question, i.e. there's an RCD in the consumer unit then yes, that's
exactly what's needed.

An RCD between the meter and the consumer unit, as per
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Electrical/Supp...ple/layout.htm

--
JGH

[Bruce[_4_]]

The Wanderer wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:31:57 +0100, Bruce wrote:

So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as
several others have suggested?

Did I say that? I think you're trying to put words in my mouth.


You certainly implied that. Mine was a genuine question, not an
attempt to put words into your mouth. Next year I will be renewing
our kitchen, and one of the issues I am facing is how best to relocate
some of the power points.

[Andy Wade]

jgharston wrote:

An RCD between the meter and the consumer unit, as per
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Electrical/Supp...ple/layout.htm

Not recommended, but I suppose that if the flats are small and there's
some emergency lighting provision it might be judged as compliant.

--
Andy

[The Wanderer[_3_]]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:28:57 +0100, Bruce wrote:

The Wanderer wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:31:57 +0100, Bruce wrote:

So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as
several others have suggested?

Did I say that? I think you're trying to put words in my mouth.


You certainly implied that. Mine was a genuine question, not an
attempt to put words into your mouth. Next year I will be renewing
our kitchen, and one of the issues I am facing is how best to relocate
some of the power points.

Bite the bullet and rewire for the kitchen. That's what I did, got all the
sockets where SWMBO wanted them, rehashed the lighting. Now I *know* it's a
good job.


--
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

[Adrian C]

Andy Hall wrote:
Nonetheless, I think that an electrical wholesaler like TLC or WF would
be the place to look for both the tool and the crimps as opposed to a
DIY store which will tend to sell the cheap non-ratchet kits.


Not only that, find a good ratchet crimp tool. There are some poor
rachet crimp tools about - the street market specials don't give
consistancy either. I bought twice, the replacement from Maplin was OK ...

--
Adrian C

[Richard]

Andy Wade wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:

Obviously test before you bury in plaster, but yes.

One final point - is the circuit RCD protected? Where a circuit is
extended the 17th edition wiring regs now apply to the new section, even
if it is only 6 in. long!

RCD protection (30 mA) is now required for all general-use 13 A sockets
and also for unprotected cables buried less then 50 mm deep in walls. If
the circuit is part of an older installation with no RCD then one
should, strictly speaking, be added.



Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a
standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A
isolator. Is that (still) acceptible?

Lecky board raised no eyebrows and, in fact re-located it to a more
convenient location relative to the new CUs that were subsequently
installed, when installing my dual rate meter 8 years ago.

Richard

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
Richard writes:
Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a
standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A
isolator. Is that (still) acceptible?

80A is a common contact rating found on RCDs, but 80mA isn't
a common trip rating. Are you sure you read that right?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[John Rumm]

Richard wrote:

Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a
standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A
isolator. Is that (still) acceptible?

It is probably a 30mA trip RCD with 80A switching capacity. If that is
the only CU, then no it is not an acceptable solution these days, since
one fault loses you all power and lights.

Lecky board raised no eyebrows and, in fact re-located it to a more
convenient location relative to the new CUs that were subsequently
installed, when installing my dual rate meter 8 years ago.

They would be unlikely to comment since it is a common arrangement, and
for a time (15th edition) was considered an appropriate way of doing
things. (since it was (rightly) believed that the RCD would result in a
reduction of serious electric shock accidents, but the consequences of
plunging a house into darkness unexpectedly had not been understood).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[John Rumm]

Huge wrote:
On 2008-07-24, John Rumm wrote:
Richard wrote:

Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a
standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A
isolator. Is that (still) acceptible?
It is probably a 30mA trip RCD with 80A switching capacity. If that is
the only CU, then no it is not an acceptable solution these days, since
one fault loses you all power and lights.

In the 15 years we've lived here, our similar arrangement has only ever lost us
"all power and lights" when some idiot (me) drilled through a ringmain. OTOH,
the power compnay plunges us into darkness several times a year. Sometimes
several times a day. So I'm not going to lay awake nights worrying about it, and
I suggest the OP does likewise.

There are two issues here really. One is the nuisance factor in day to
day life, and the other is the genuine fault scenario.

Peoples perception of problems with the single RCD setup seem to be
governed by the former, while it is the latter that in many cases has
more potential to bite you.

Some single RCD setups (like yours, or the setup at my mum's previous
place) never trip unexpectedly, and hence can lead you to assume there
is little or no risk. Others, like that which was here when we moved it,
tripped any time a horse farted or so it seemed[1] and was a right royal
pain in the arse. Hence there was a big motivation to fix it for that
reason alone.

(The supply also goes off with some regularity here as well - hence why
I am fitting emergency lights in strategic places. Having navigated my
way back to the CU in total darkness on a few occasions when it was just
a RCD trip, it was apparent that to get the whole family out, possibly
in the presence of smoke, in the same situation would be very difficult)

However the fact that you get no nuisance trips does not mitigate the
problem of being left in an awkward situation in complete darkness when
the RCD does its job protecting you from a real fault. This may be an
exceedingly rare event. How much of a problem this actually is will vary
greatly on circumstances. Someone in a well street lit road, young and
mobile enough to find their way back to the CU with no difficulty is not
really under any risk. Old, infirm, out in the sticks, up a couple of
flights of awkward stairs etc and the picture is very different.

So my advice would in some circumstances concur with yours, but only
after one has assessed their circumstances and thought through what
factors are going to come into play.



[1] Combination of ten circuits including several outdoor ones all
protected on one over sensitive 30mA trip RCD.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

[Chewbacca[_2_]]

John Rumm wrote:
Richard wrote:

Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a
standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A
isolator. Is that (still) acceptible?

It is probably a 30mA trip RCD with 80A switching capacity. If that is
the only CU, then no it is not an acceptable solution these days, since
one fault loses you all power and lights.

Lecky board raised no eyebrows and, in fact re-located it to a more
convenient location relative to the new CUs that were subsequently
installed, when installing my dual rate meter 8 years ago.

They would be unlikely to comment since it is a common arrangement, and
for a time (15th edition) was considered an appropriate way of doing
things. (since it was (rightly) believed that the RCD would result in a
reduction of serious electric shock accidents, but the consequences of
plunging a house into darkness unexpectedly had not been understood).

I suspect it is more to do with 'reasonable' cost. When the 15th regs
were being prepared (and these things take time to be approved and
issued) the RCD was an expensive device. To require people to have 2 or
3 was probably not reasonable, and losing all the lights was compared to
electrocution. However they are so cheap that by the time the next regs
come out they will probably require 2 for lights and 2 or 3 for
everything else - just my guess

[Richard]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:


80A is a common contact rating found on RCDs, but 80mA isn't
a common trip rating. Are you sure you read that right?


Quite right. I miss-remembered the rating. It's an MK LN6180 item:
100mA trip, rated at 80A


For the benefit of later contributors, and with apologies for being
economical with the information earlier, this is the setup:

LN6180 feeds one CU which supports kitchen, GF, 1F and attic ring mains,
and oven, immersion heater and outside socket.

Second CU (no RCD) supports GF and upstairs lighting, freezer and fridge
supplies, boiler and garage (via it's own 30mA RCD CU).

I suspect that the LN6180 was installed by the previous owners because
of frequent nuisance tripping - but I cannot be certain.

Richard

[John Rumm]

Chewbacca wrote:

I suspect it is more to do with 'reasonable' cost. When the 15th regs
were being prepared (and these things take time to be approved and
issued) the RCD was an expensive device. To require people to have 2 or
3 was probably not reasonable, and losing all the lights was compared to

Yeahbut, many split load setups still only have one RCD...


--
Cheers,

John.

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