[Mark]

Hi,

I have just removed a radiator & noted that a small amount of black
water came out (which later settled out into brown sand-like grains).

The majority of the system is fairly new (all radiators and boiler)
but there is some old pipework. The boiler is a W-B combi (i.e.
sealed). There are no leaks in the system.

I see that there are a huge number of chemical cleaner products and
inhibitors. How can I tell which would be most suitable for my
system?

TIA, Mark.

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-27 20:46:22 +0100, Mark said:

Hi,

I have just removed a radiator & noted that a small amount of black
water came out (which later settled out into brown sand-like grains).

The majority of the system is fairly new (all radiators and boiler)
but there is some old pipework. The boiler is a W-B combi (i.e.
sealed). There are no leaks in the system.

I see that there are a huge number of chemical cleaner products and
inhibitors. How can I tell which would be most suitable for my
system?

TIA, Mark.

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them with
a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each radiator
position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Afterwards, use a flushing agent manufactured either by Fernox or
Sentinel. Run hot for the period recommended by the manufacturers.

Flush with plain water and finally add a corrosion inhibitor
manufactured by one of the above.

Tests made by various people here have shown that these products do
perform better than cheap generics from various places.

[Frank Erskine]

On Tue, 27 May 2008 23:26:24 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-27 20:46:22 +0100, Mark said:

Hi,

I have just removed a radiator & noted that a small amount of black
water came out (which later settled out into brown sand-like grains).

The majority of the system is fairly new (all radiators and boiler)
but there is some old pipework. The boiler is a W-B combi (i.e.
sealed). There are no leaks in the system.

I see that there are a huge number of chemical cleaner products and
inhibitors. How can I tell which would be most suitable for my
system?

TIA, Mark.

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them with
a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each radiator
position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Where N is greatest for British Gas, who consider themselves to be
"the gas board".

--
Frank Erskine

[Dave]

Andy Hall wrote:

Snip

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and
solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them with
a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each radiator
position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Just what is a power flushing machine? can a pressure washer be adapted
to do the job?

Dave

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-28 00:10:46 +0100, Dave said:

Andy Hall wrote:

Snip

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them with
a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each radiator
position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Just what is a power flushing machine? can a pressure washer be adapted
to do the job?

Dave

It's a container with powerful pump, a set of valves and hoses and
connectors for the system normally fit the pump position. Special
flushing solution is used and is circulated through.


I've used a pressure washer outside to flush through radiators but
not indoors

[Lobster]

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-27 20:46:22 +0100, Mark said:

I have just removed a radiator & noted that a small amount of black
water came out (which later settled out into brown sand-like grains).

The majority of the system is fairly new (all radiators and boiler)
but there is some old pipework. The boiler is a W-B combi (i.e.
sealed). There are no leaks in the system.

I see that there are a huge number of chemical cleaner products and
inhibitors. How can I tell which would be most suitable for my
system?

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and
solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them with
a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each radiator
position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Not disagreeing that either of the above are the ideal solutions, but
both are reasonably drastic in terms of hassle factor and/or cost.
Given that the majority of the OP's system is pretty new I'd go for
something like Sentinel X400 cleanser, and repeated fill/flush/drain cycles
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/89458/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X400-Central-Heating-Sludge-Remover

followed by say Sentinel X100 inhibitor:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/79683/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X100-Central-Heating-Scale-Inhibitor-1Ltr

David

[Rod]

Lobster wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-27 20:46:22 +0100, Mark said:

I have just removed a radiator & noted that a small amount of black
water came out (which later settled out into brown sand-like grains).

The majority of the system is fairly new (all radiators and boiler)
but there is some old pipework. The boiler is a W-B combi (i.e.
sealed). There are no leaks in the system.

I see that there are a huge number of chemical cleaner products and
inhibitors. How can I tell which would be most suitable for my
system?

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and
solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them
with a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each
radiator position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Not disagreeing that either of the above are the ideal solutions, but
both are reasonably drastic in terms of hassle factor and/or cost. Given
that the majority of the OP's system is pretty new I'd go for something
like Sentinel X400 cleanser, and repeated fill/flush/drain cycles
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/89458/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X400-Central-Heating-Sludge-Remover


followed by say Sentinel X100 inhibitor:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/79683/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X100-Central-Heating-Scale-Inhibitor-1Ltr


If nothing else, I'd say get something into the system asap as Lobster
describes. Any brand would be better than none. You might wish or need
to leave it a few weeks before you can tackle the full clean. (The
system cleaners need to be left in for a while to work properly. And it
might just not be convenient to do more at the moment.)

You might also care to consider why it was left without? I'd be checking
anything the installer left - bills, etc. - which might claim to have
done a power flush and filled with inhibitor. And any warranty provided.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[John Stumbles]

On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:56:00 +0100, Rod wrote:

If nothing else, I'd say get something into the system asap as Lobster
describes. Any brand would be better than none.

Or maybe not
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...sion_Inhibitor

--
John Stumbles

Things don't like being anthropomorphised.

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-28 10:45:27 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-27 20:46:22 +0100, Mark said:

I have just removed a radiator & noted that a small amount of black
water came out (which later settled out into brown sand-like grains).

The majority of the system is fairly new (all radiators and boiler)
but there is some old pipework. The boiler is a W-B combi (i.e.
sealed). There are no leaks in the system.

I see that there are a huge number of chemical cleaner products and
inhibitors. How can I tell which would be most suitable for my
system?

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them with
a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each radiator
position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Not disagreeing that either of the above are the ideal solutions, but
both are reasonably drastic in terms of hassle factor and/or cost.
Given that the majority of the OP's system is pretty new I'd go for
something like Sentinel X400 cleanser, and repeated fill/flush/drain
cycles
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/89458/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X400-Central-Heating-Sludge-Remover

followed

by say Sentinel X100 inhibitor:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/79683/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X100-Central-Heating-Scale-Inhibitor-1Ltr

David

The

point was that the system already has quite a bit of particulate
sludge. Cleaner products alone just circulated won't do much with
that. Rather they will end to free up some of the material allowing it
to be circulated into the boiler. That is not wanted.

Therefore some form of mechanical removal is a really good idea.

One could just do the basic Sentinel deal as you suggest and it would
at least prevent further corrosion, but I would be concerned about the
particulate material getting into the boiler and other unwanted places.

[Rod]

John Stumbles wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:56:00 +0100, Rod wrote:

If nothing else, I'd say get something into the system asap as Lobster
describes. Any brand would be better than none.

Or maybe not
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...sion_Inhibitor


Our system actually has Sentinel - and the last time I checked, the
water looked pretty good. What the hell is in Purimachos' stuff?

I admit - "any brand" might not be true.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

[John Stumbles]

On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:02:56 +0100, Rod wrote:

Our system actually has Sentinel - and the last time I checked, the
water looked pretty good. What the hell is in Purimachos' stuff?

I'd hazard a guess there's a fair amount of dihydrogen monoxide in it :-)


--
John Stumbles

A backstreet vasectomy left me sterile

[Mark]

On Wed, 28 May 2008 12:50:05 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-28 10:45:27 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-27 20:46:22 +0100, Mark said:

I have just removed a radiator & noted that a small amount of black
water came out (which later settled out into brown sand-like grains).

The majority of the system is fairly new (all radiators and boiler)
but there is some old pipework. The boiler is a W-B combi (i.e.
sealed). There are no leaks in the system.

I see that there are a huge number of chemical cleaner products and
inhibitors. How can I tell which would be most suitable for my
system?

The first thing is that you need to thorughly flush out the sludge and solids.

There are two reasonable ways to do that:

- Drain system, remove radiators, take them outside and flush them with
a mains hose or pressure washer. Flush water out at each radiator
position.

- Power flush the system. This can be done by paying someone N x
hundred ££s or by renting the equipment and DIYing it.

Not disagreeing that either of the above are the ideal solutions, but
both are reasonably drastic in terms of hassle factor and/or cost.
Given that the majority of the OP's system is pretty new I'd go for
something like Sentinel X400 cleanser, and repeated fill/flush/drain
cycles
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/89458/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X400-Central-Heating-Sludge-Remover

followed

by say Sentinel X100 inhibitor:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/79683/Plumbing/Central-Heating-Treatment/Sentinel-X100-Central-Heating-Scale-Inhibitor-1Ltr

David

The

point was that the system already has quite a bit of particulate
sludge. Cleaner products alone just circulated won't do much with
that. Rather they will end to free up some of the material allowing it
to be circulated into the boiler. That is not wanted.

Therefore some form of mechanical removal is a really good idea.

One could just do the basic Sentinel deal as you suggest and it would
at least prevent further corrosion, but I would be concerned about the
particulate material getting into the boiler and other unwanted places.

Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Can anyone explain how the fernox or sentinal products are
administered to a sealed system (with out a header tank)?

Fernox and sentinal seem to offer a big variety of products. What is
the difference?

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

In the end, this is like a maintenance arrangement and insurance policy.

I've described what I would do given what you have. I would be very
confident, after this, having spent about £50 on chemicals plus some
moving of radiators outside for cleaning, that I would have a very
solid system that wlll last for 3 decades or more apart from moving
parts and the boiler. I could complete this work in half a day and
at my time cost of £50/hr, I will have spent £250 in cash and
equivalents.

For convenience, I could have chosen the power flusher followed by the
chemicals and spent £150 plus £200 in time .

I could have used the chemicals only and saved some work. Cost in
materials £50, £50 in time, but sludge not removed.

I could have bought cheap generic chemicals for £20. You have seen the
effect (or lack of efect) of these.


However....

The cost of replacing a complete system is in the £2000 - 4000 range.

Using the first option of £250 in cash and equivalents plus £20 every
2-3 years for inhibitor is a very good insurance policy.

It;s a job that is worth doing properly.

[Lobster]

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David

[Mark]

On Thu, 29 May 2008 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

According to the instructions this one
(http://www.hss.com/g/51610/Central-Heating-Flusher.html) can attach
to a radiator connection (with the rad removed obviously).

[John Stumbles]

On Thu, 29 May 2008 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster wrote:

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

Some of them have adapters to go onto a pump - you remove the pump head
and fit the adaptor in its place.


--
John Stumbles

Pessimists are never disappointed

[geoff]

In message , Lobster
writes
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.
Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

Usually at the heat exchanger or boiler connections - basically wherever
you find a convenient flow and return

BTW, I have a powerflush pump


--
geoff

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David

Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.

[FredCarnot]

John Stumbles wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:02:56 +0100, Rod wrote:

Our system actually has Sentinel - and the last time I checked, the
water looked pretty good. What the hell is in Purimachos' stuff?

I'd hazard a guess there's a fair amount of dihydrogen monoxide in it :-)

Dodgy stuff that, see http://www.dhmo.org/ )

--
Fred

[John Stumbles]

On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:50:17 +0100, FredCarnot wrote:

Dodgy stuff that, see http://www.dhmo.org/ )

What they're missing is that it can also cause, or is implicated in,
various degrees of property damage including destruction of service
pipework, fungal growths, damage to all types of timber and even
structural damage to the fabric of buildings. And yet when concerned
British citizens try to do something about it the Establishment
suppresses their actions:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ban-DHMO/

--
John Stumbles

Life is nature's way of keeping meat fresh

[Mark]

On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David

Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.

How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.

I haven't looked yet but I would almost bet that the pump in my combi
boiler will be fairly inaccessable. Indeed some flushing guides
advise isolating the boiler which would not be possible if connected
to the pump?

I'd like to do it right, but using the power flush seems confusing to
me (not the principle but the practicality). I can forsee a situation
where I hire the thing and cannot use it.

[Lobster]

Mark wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.
Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.
How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David
Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.

How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.

Did you see the downloadable PDF instructions as well as the top-line
version on the site?

David

[Mark]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:47:50 +0100, Lobster
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.
Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.
How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David
Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.

How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.

Did you see the downloadable PDF instructions as well as the top-line
version on the site?

Yes, they were the instructions I was referring to! There it says it
can be connected across the pump with it removed or across the
radiator so I guess the latter would be better for me.

Reading the instructions today they don't seem quite as confusing ;-)
I wish they described the procedure for a sealed system though.

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

[Stuart Noble]

Mark wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:47:50 +0100, Lobster
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.
Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.
How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David
Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.
How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.
Did you see the downloadable PDF instructions as well as the top-line
version on the site?

Yes, they were the instructions I was referring to! There it says it
can be connected across the pump with it removed or across the
radiator so I guess the latter would be better for me.

Reading the instructions today they don't seem quite as confusing ;-)
I wish they described the procedure for a sealed system though.

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?



Just use a cartridge gun. IIRC x100 comes with a plastic spout for
radiators. What I did was to loosen the bleed valve on the highest rad
in the house and catch the water in a bowl. About a litre came out of
mine. Then remove the valve altogether. Put the stuff in gradually over
a couple of hours and give it a helping hand with a piece of wire or
something. It did all go in eventually but, as it's just a load of
crystals in detergent, it tends to block the hole.

Might take a couple of days for the system to settle down afterwards.
Boric acid isn't very soluble, especially in cold water, so it needs a
lot of circulating before it's all dissolved and can start doing its
job. During that time you're likely to get random readings on the
pressure gauge. Yes, it's a lot of money to pay for a cheap chemical but
we all like to put our faith in a named product

[Mark]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 12:47:00 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:47:50 +0100, Lobster
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.
Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.
How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David
Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.
How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.
Did you see the downloadable PDF instructions as well as the top-line
version on the site?

Yes, they were the instructions I was referring to! There it says it
can be connected across the pump with it removed or across the
radiator so I guess the latter would be better for me.

Reading the instructions today they don't seem quite as confusing ;-)
I wish they described the procedure for a sealed system though.

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?



Just use a cartridge gun. IIRC x100 comes with a plastic spout for
radiators.

Thanks. All the picture shows is a large container.

Mark.

[Lobster]

Mark wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:47:50 +0100, Lobster
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.
Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.
How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David
Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.
How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.
Did you see the downloadable PDF instructions as well as the top-line
version on the site?

Yes, they were the instructions I was referring to! There it says it
can be connected across the pump with it removed or across the
radiator so I guess the latter would be better for me.

Reading the instructions today they don't seem quite as confusing ;-)
I wish they described the procedure for a sealed system though.

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

If you've got a bathroom towel rail with the valve on top (ie pointing
skyward), the easiest way is to release the pressure in the system by
draining off at any suitable point (even the towel rail bleed valve if
need be, and then unscrew the valve completely. Drain off enough volume
to allow the volume of inhibitor to be added, and just pour the stuff
in. (You can just as easily use the conventional stuff as the more
expensive cartridge/concentrate.)

David

[Mark]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:29:39 +0100, Lobster
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:47:50 +0100, Lobster
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.
Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.
How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David
Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.
How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.
Did you see the downloadable PDF instructions as well as the top-line
version on the site?

Yes, they were the instructions I was referring to! There it says it
can be connected across the pump with it removed or across the
radiator so I guess the latter would be better for me.

Reading the instructions today they don't seem quite as confusing ;-)
I wish they described the procedure for a sealed system though.

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

If you've got a bathroom towel rail with the valve on top (ie pointing
skyward), the easiest way is to release the pressure in the system by
draining off at any suitable point (even the towel rail bleed valve if
need be, and then unscrew the valve completely. Drain off enough volume
to allow the volume of inhibitor to be added, and just pour the stuff
in. (You can just as easily use the conventional stuff as the more
expensive cartridge/concentrate.)

No heated towel rail I'm afraid :-(

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-30 08:39:49 +0100, Mark said:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David

Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.

How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.


I haven't looked yet but I would almost bet that the pump in my combi
boiler will be fairly inaccessable. Indeed some flushing guides
advise isolating the boiler which would not be possible if connected
to the pump?

I'd like to do it right, but using the power flush seems confusing to
me (not the principle but the practicality). I can forsee a situation
where I hire the thing and cannot use it.

You could begin by isolating one radiator and emptying it into
containers. Keep in mind that the water is an indellible dye.

If there is a lot of sludge then cleaning should happen. You could
do this by removing radiators one at a time and flushing them outside.
While a radiator is removed, Flush some clean water through by
connecting up and running the filling loop. This means that sludge
in the pipes will be flushed out rather than around the system.

You could find out the make and model available from HSS and contact
the manufacturer for detailed instructions if you choose that approach.

[John Stumbles]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:35:29 +0100, Mark wrote:

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

--
John Stumbles

Life is nature's way of keeping meat fresh

[John Stumbles]

On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:41:41 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

Oh and drop the pressure in the system before doing so or you'll never get
any in.

--
John Stumbles

What is a simile like?

[Mark]

On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:41:41 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:35:29 +0100, Mark wrote:

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

Don't have one of those either :-(

[Mark]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:38:32 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-30 08:39:49 +0100, Mark said:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:09:17 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-29 08:11:37 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-05-28 20:35:28 +0100, Mark said:


Thanks for all the replies. I have looked at hiring a power flusher
but the only one I can find is about £100 and it doesn't mention use
in a sealed system.

Yes it will work with a sealed system. £100 is a reasonable price.

How do you actually attach power flushers to the CH system? Do you need
to provide a special port or something?

David

Usually they hook into the pump position - at least on ones that I've seen.

How can I find this out for sure before actually hiring one? The
instructions of the HSS one were vague at best about this matter. I
doubt the hire shop will really know how to use it.


I haven't looked yet but I would almost bet that the pump in my combi
boiler will be fairly inaccessable. Indeed some flushing guides
advise isolating the boiler which would not be possible if connected
to the pump?

I'd like to do it right, but using the power flush seems confusing to
me (not the principle but the practicality). I can forsee a situation
where I hire the thing and cannot use it.

You could begin by isolating one radiator and emptying it into
containers. Keep in mind that the water is an indellible dye.

If there is a lot of sludge then cleaning should happen. You could
do this by removing radiators one at a time and flushing them outside.
While a radiator is removed, Flush some clean water through by
connecting up and running the filling loop. This means that sludge
in the pipes will be flushed out rather than around the system.

Thanks again Andy for your advice. I have only taken one radiator off
so far and there was only a small amount of sludge, most of the water
was clear. I was tending towards the power flush option because some
of the rooms have nice carpets and SWMBO would have a fit if anything
got spilled on them.

I wonder if I could just use the filling loop without removing all the
radiators?

You could find out the make and model available from HSS and contact
the manufacturer for detailed instructions if you choose that approach.

There only seems to be HSS logos on the instructions.

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-31 03:27:37 +0100, John Stumbles said:

On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:41:41 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

Oh and drop the pressure in the system before doing so or you'll never get
any in.

I made one of these to be able to refill my secondary circuit (used for
the workshop and supplied with heat via a plate heat exchanger).
This circuit is substantially dosed with Alphi-11 inhibitor, containing
antifreeze, which is quite expensive, so I wanted to be able to keep
the liquid if it's necessary to partly drain down and put it back
afterwards.

The recipe was the bog standard large capacity Hozelock sprayer from
wherever. The aluminium tube forming the lance will fit well into
an 8mm brass compression fitting. I used a 8x8mm coupler From there
I adapted upwards using a short piece of 8mm copper tube to a 8x15mm
adaptor with male tail with that going into a 15mm x 3/4 BSP male
fitting - i.e. something onto which the filling loop will go.

I've found that I can get the pressure up to about 1.5 bar with this.
On refilling, I add a little more fresh Alphi-11 to the mix and
finally top up with mains water to 2 bar. This avoids dilution.

I agree, though, the last few sprayer tank fulls beyond 1 bar are hard work.

[Andy Hall]

On 2008-05-31 09:04:47 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks again Andy for your advice. I have only taken one radiator off
so far and there was only a small amount of sludge, most of the water
was clear. I was tending towards the power flush option because some
of the rooms have nice carpets and SWMBO would have a fit if anything
got spilled on them.

Oh sure....

You can protect for this quite well with some care. I used two (new)
cat litter trays from the supermarket, one under each radiator tail.
This gives plenty of catch capacity. A thick PVC sheet went down first
followed by absorbent paper and I had some disposable mop-up towel and
a bucket on hand.

I turned off the radiator valves and then carefully undid one union
part way. Then opening the bleed valve allows the water out in a
controlled way. Finally Undo the other union and carefully tip the
radiator towards one end to drain most of the rest. Take small
sandwich bags and fit them over the tails on the radiators securing
with a thick rubber band. You are now safe to remove radiator to
outside.





I wonder if I could just use the filling loop without removing all the
radiators?

You need to use it anyway. I thought about doing this to flush the
radiators at each radiator position. The trouble is that you would
need to flush a fair bit through the radiator itself to clear the
debris. I found that with taking them outside, I could flush much
more effectively.


If you meant using the mains pressure to flush via one radiator at a
time to a drain cock, that might work, but I don't think as effective.
Also, you would probably need to fit isolating valves to the boiler to
make sure that you can't either have a short path to drain through it
or that you flush debris through it from the radiators.

While you're at it, fitting a strainer with stainless steel mesh on the
return to the boiler is a good idea.



You could find out the make and model available from HSS and contact
the manufacturer for detailed instructions if you choose that approach.

There only seems to be HSS logos on the instructions.

That's a pain. I wonder if there's anywhere else that rents them out.

[Mark]

On Sat, 31 May 2008 10:12:07 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-31 09:04:47 +0100, Mark said:

Thanks again Andy for your advice. I have only taken one radiator off
so far and there was only a small amount of sludge, most of the water
was clear. I was tending towards the power flush option because some
of the rooms have nice carpets and SWMBO would have a fit if anything
got spilled on them.

Oh sure....

You can protect for this quite well with some care. I used two (new)
cat litter trays from the supermarket, one under each radiator tail.
This gives plenty of catch capacity. A thick PVC sheet went down first
followed by absorbent paper and I had some disposable mop-up towel and
a bucket on hand.

I turned off the radiator valves and then carefully undid one union
part way. Then opening the bleed valve allows the water out in a
controlled way. Finally Undo the other union and carefully tip the
radiator towards one end to drain most of the rest. Take small
sandwich bags and fit them over the tails on the radiators securing
with a thick rubber band. You are now safe to remove radiator to
outside.

I wonder if I could just use the filling loop without removing all the
radiators?

You need to use it anyway. I thought about doing this to flush the
radiators at each radiator position. The trouble is that you would
need to flush a fair bit through the radiator itself to clear the
debris. I found that with taking them outside, I could flush much
more effectively.

If you meant using the mains pressure to flush via one radiator at a
time to a drain cock, that might work, but I don't think as effective.
Also, you would probably need to fit isolating valves to the boiler to
make sure that you can't either have a short path to drain through it
or that you flush debris through it from the radiators.

That was the kind of thing I was thinking about. However I'm not sure
I could easily fit isolating values. There is only one place I can
get to the pipes without ripping up floors etc and the pipes are
_very_ close together. I doubt I could squeeze anything in let alone
cut the pipes.

While you're at it, fitting a strainer with stainless steel mesh on the
return to the boiler is a good idea.

As above - not sure how I could achieve this.

You could find out the make and model available from HSS and contact
the manufacturer for detailed instructions if you choose that approach.

There only seems to be HSS logos on the instructions.

That's a pain. I wonder if there's anywhere else that rents them out.

I'll need to do this anyway. HSS have closed my local branch (even
though it's still listed).

[John Stumbles]

On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:58:33 +0100, Mark wrote:

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

Don't have one of those either :-(

Cheaper than the difference in price between the squirt-in sentinel and
the bottled stuff. And you get a free garden sprayer thrown in with it :-)

--
John Stumbles

My karma ran over my dogma

[John Stumbles]

On Sat, 31 May 2008 10:12:07 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

While you're at it, fitting a strainer with stainless steel mesh on the
return to the boiler is a good idea.

Not unless you can guarantee getting every last scrap of debris out of the
system: a small amount of crud is enough to block the strainer up and stop
circulation through the system.

--
John Stumbles

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

[geoff]

In message , Mark
writes
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:41:41 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:35:29 +0100, Mark wrote:

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

Don't have one of those either :-(


drop the pressure, funnel and tube into the top of a radiator

--
geoff

[ARWadworth]

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Mark
writes
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:41:41 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:35:29 +0100, Mark wrote:

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

Don't have one of those either :-(


drop the pressure, funnel and tube into the top of a radiator

--
geoff

You mean improvise?

Adam

[geoff]

In message , ARWadworth
writes

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Mark
writes
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:41:41 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:35:29 +0100, Mark wrote:

Can anyone explain how to get inhibitor (X100) in to a sealed system?

Cheapo garden spray pump and suitable adaptor(s) to get it onto the
filling hose connection. And a bit of elbow grease.

Don't have one of those either :-(


drop the pressure, funnel and tube into the top of a radiator

-- geoff

You mean improvise?

It's called proper DIY


--
geoff