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#1
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
Hi All,
I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. Of course all three pipe connections (cold mains pressure water in, hot mains pressure water out and gas in) are in different places. Doh! So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) Based on the fact we have the flexible connectors at the other end of the system (on the sink, basin and bath) and they are obviously able to do the job (heat and pressure) but are there any rules prohibiting their use at the heater end, or does anyone have general thoughts re using them for such please? FWIW I think I've seen them used to connect a combi boiler but that doesn't mean such is 'good practice'? All the best .. T i m |
#2
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:
Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. .... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking questions like this. I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound. They may be happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off someone else's work. -- John Stumbles Procrastinate now! |
#3
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:00:34 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote: On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. Ok, thanks (I'd guessed as much) and why I phrased it like I did. But fine for the water heater connectors though John? I was more unsure about the flow rate but as they are already elsewhere in the system I'm not sure it's that relevant? Are there some that offer less resistance (for the same nominal connection size) would you know please? The bottom line is final flow rate is probably more a function of the heater stat than any pipework. To be honest it really doesn't sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking questions like this. You are probably right. However I did re-plumb (water and gas) and wire this house when I bought it ~30 years ago and it's all been ok so far (could just be just luck I guess)? ;-) I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter Yeah, I helped one of them bleed his radiator .. he'd been on it an hour apparently! ;-) to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound. It's my house and trust me, there is no one more keen to ensure all those points are correct than I am. BTW, I've ordered a new flue and case seal, just because. They may be happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off someone else's work. As it happens he will be here for all the key stages (he's just not about today) .. like I said, I want it right .. ;-) All the best .. T i m |
#4
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On 7 Apr, 19:00, John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking questions like this. I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound. They may be happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off someone else's work. -- John Stumbles Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure. Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...? Jon. |
#5
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700 (PDT), Tournifreak
wrote: On 7 Apr, 19:00, John Stumbles wrote: On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking questions like this. I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound. They may be happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off someone else's work. -- John Stumbles Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure. Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...? Jon. The plastic pipe bringing gas into my house (above ground) doesn't look that special Jon? I agree the fire thing is the most likely reason. I was also half expecting a "yes you can but you have to use a BS1234/Z fireproof one" as gear seems to move at such a rate these days. All the best .. T i m |
#6
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
In message , John Stumbles
writes On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking questions like this. I dunno, I wouldn't have known this when I was looking to install my first boiler -- geoff |
#7
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
In message , T i m
writes On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:00:34 GMT, John Stumbles wrote: On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. Ok, thanks (I'd guessed as much) and why I phrased it like I did. But fine for the water heater connectors though John? I was more unsure about the flow rate but as they are already elsewhere in the system I'm not sure it's that relevant? Are there some that offer less resistance (for the same nominal connection size) would you know please? Personally, I'd just do a proper job and have done with it Actually Ed can only be a few miles down the road from you if you want your gas connection done and tested ... -- geoff |
#8
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
In message , geoff
writes In message , John Stumbles writes On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking questions like this. I dunno, I wouldn't have known this when I was looking to install my first boiler Which reminds me when my brother moved into his last house, the gas cooker was connected to the main via a bit of garden hose and a couple of jubilee clips -- geoff |
#9
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700, Tournifreak wrote:
Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure. Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...? Jon. Because they're not approved for gas (specifically natural gas in this case). *Any* fitting not approved for gas is prohibited. It's regulation mumblesomething or other/mumble in the Gas Safety Installation & Use Regs. As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position is a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise. -- John Stumbles I can't stand intolerance |
#10
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:47:32 GMT, geoff wrote:
Personally, I'd just do a proper job and have done with it As will I .. I was only asking out of interest. Actually Ed can only be a few miles down the road from you if you want your gas connection done and tested ... Thanks for the suggestion Geoff but I have a CORGI guy on hand for all the important bits. Plus the new flue and case seals won't be in till Wednesday so there's no rush etc. In fact it gives me time to move the water pipes about etc. All the best .. T i m |
#11
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 23:56:28 +0100, me9 wrote:
So I won't be able to use my old bunsen burner stored in the loft? It was OK 45 years ago. You might want to put a new hose on it :-) And I'm not sure what you'd connect it to - those push-on tapered & ribbed gas taps we used to have on lab benches at school would surely not be legal today. Still there must be provision for it somewhere in the regs or chem labs would be out of business. There's even a provision that allows you to do a gas installation in ways that would contravene the regs except that it's in a workshop where gas fitters are taught gas safety. -- John Stumbles Blamestorming Sitting around in a group, discussing why a deadline was missed or a project failed, and who was responsible. |
#12
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:37:31 GMT, geoff wrote:
In message , John Stumbles writes On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking questions like this. I dunno, I wouldn't have known this when I was looking to install my first boiler In the real world Geoff there are loads of things that are just bureaucracy. I know John means well and there is no way I will be doing anything against code but the point is there are probably loads of things in millions of installations that wouldn't meet today's code but are *still* perfectly safe. That's not to say they couldn't be made better or safer but you only have to see what they *still* get away with in other parts of the world (and closer to home when they think no one is looking) to know that folk get away with all sorts of stuff. It's not in my nature to try to 'get away' with anything .. being Mr over cautious or over engineered (or over fussy), but I know where to draw the line and I can use common sense. Our daughter has a small wall mounted balanced flue fire in her room and the thermocouple has just failed. I've removed the thermocouple (new one will be in tomorrow) but I could have taken one out of the brand new fire I still have sitting in it's box. I didn't because I see no point disturbing a new fire for the sake of a few hours. I could have (easily) changed the whole fire but that would mean touching the gas and I wouldn't want to do that! ;-) All the best .. T i m |
#13
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On 2008-04-08 00:22:34 +0100, John Stumbles said:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 23:56:28 +0100, me9 wrote: So I won't be able to use my old bunsen burner stored in the loft? It was OK 45 years ago. You might want to put a new hose on it :-) And I'm not sure what you'd connect it to - those push-on tapered & ribbed gas taps we used to have on lab benches at school would surely not be legal today. That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of oomph. Still there must be provision for it somewhere in the regs or chem labs would be out of business. I think they are, aren't they as far as schools are concerned? There's even a provision that allows you to do a gas installation in ways that would contravene the regs except that it's in a workshop where gas fitters are taught gas safety. Is there a kind of initiation ceremony? You know, trouser legs rolled up, that kind of thing..... |
#14
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
wrote in message ...
On 7 Apr, John Stumbles wrote: As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position is a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise. So I won't be able to use my old bunsen burner stored in the loft? It was OK 45 years ago. He never said you wouldn't be able to do this or the OP wouldn't be able to use flexible connectors. He said they were prohibited, which they are, with all the attendant legal (and, possibly but not necessarily, non-obvious safety risks). We are all able to do more than 30 in a 30MPH zone but it's prohibited. If you fancy trying your old bunsen burner, carry on (just don't ask if it's legal!) -- Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) |
#15
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
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#16
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq... That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of oomph. I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM |
#17
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
In article ,
John Stumbles writes: On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700, Tournifreak wrote: Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure. Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...? Jon. Because they're not approved for gas (specifically natural gas in this case). *Any* fitting not approved for gas is prohibited. It's regulation mumblesomething or other/mumble in the Gas Safety Installation & Use Regs. As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position is a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise. Another reason is that you aren't allowed to use flexible hose to connect a gas appliance with a fixed flue, because it might allow the appliance to be operated in a position with the flue disconnected. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#18
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ... On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote: Hi All, I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer Main Medway jobby. ... So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors? (Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-) They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. The "bendable" corrugated copper flexes can be used on gas. Using a water flexible connection is legal. There is nothing against any regulation that I know of that says they cannot be used at an appliance. One with an integral isolator would be the best bet. |
#19
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:36:31 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Another reason is that you aren't allowed to use flexible hose to connect a gas appliance with a fixed flue, because it might allow the appliance to be operated in a position with the flue disconnected. Unless the flue is also flexible (A clue to what sort of appliance might have such an arrangement is in an earlier post of mine starting a different thread - for those curious enough to look!) -- John Stumbles Procrastinate now! |
#20
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:46:58 +0000, T i m wrote:
p.s. I still haven't had an answer re the use of the stainless braided flexible hoses for the water connections on this multipoint? I'm pretty sure I've removed a boiler for a mate (it had all been decommissioned gas-wise) and that had all the water terminations made with such (15 and 22mm)? This doesn't mean it's a good thing of course, just that someone has used them for said. ISTR there's a regulation somewhere (one of the British Standards?) that appliances such as boilers must have the first metre of pipework in copper. (Presumably steel would be OK, but not plastic or rubber.) -- John Stumbles I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous |
#21
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ... On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:46:58 +0000, T i m wrote: p.s. I still haven't had an answer re the use of the stainless braided flexible hoses for the water connections on this multipoint? I'm pretty sure I've removed a boiler for a mate (it had all been decommissioned gas-wise) and that had all the water terminations made with such (15 and 22mm)? This doesn't mean it's a good thing of course, just that someone has used them for said. ISTR there's a regulation somewhere (one of the British Standards?) that appliances such as boilers must have the first metre of pipework in copper. (Presumably steel would be OK, but not plastic or rubber.) There isn't such reg. Some makers will allow plastic pipe right up to the boiler. Usually when the connections are outside the boiler casing. |
#22
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , John Stumbles writes: On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700, Tournifreak wrote: Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure. Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...? Jon. Because they're not approved for gas (specifically natural gas in this case). *Any* fitting not approved for gas is prohibited. It's regulation mumblesomething or other/mumble in the Gas Safety Installation & Use Regs. As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position is a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise. Another reason is that you aren't allowed to use flexible hose to connect a gas appliance with a fixed flue, because it might allow the appliance to be operated in a position with the flue disconnected. What do you mean? |
#23
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
In message , "dennis@home"
writes "Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq... That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of oomph. I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM has he got a water rehydrator as well ? -- geoff |
#24
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On 2008-04-08 09:27:13 +0100, Rod said:
When corgis were the Queen's dogs... Camilla? |
#25
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On 2008-04-08 09:49:28 +0100, "dennis@home"
said: "Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq... That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of oomph. I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM Oh dear. I believe that these are a better solution than cylinders |
#26
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-08 09:27:13 +0100, Rod said: When corgis were the Queen's dogs... Camilla? And the queen wasn't Elton John? -- Rod Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious onset. Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed. www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org |
#27
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
"dennis@home" wrote in message ... "Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq... That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of oomph. I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM Won't work, oxygen does not ignite. |
#28
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:23:06 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:
The "bendable" corrugated copper flexes can be used on gas. They *can* (ad can garden hose) but they *may* not unless the fitting is approved for use with gas. I've never checked whether they are or not: I've never been inclined to use them. -- John Stumbles This message has been rot13 encrypted twice for added security |
#29
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Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ... On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:23:06 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote: The "bendable" corrugated copper flexes can be used on gas. They *can* (ad can garden hose) but they *may* not unless the fitting is approved for use with gas. I've never checked whether they are or not: I've never been inclined to use them. They have copper tails and any solder or compression fitting can be used. They are not cheap. Only used to get out of a scrape. |
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