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Default Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

Of course all three pipe connections (cold mains pressure water in,
hot mains pressure water out and gas in) are in different places. Doh!

So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)

Based on the fact we have the flexible connectors at the other end of
the system (on the sink, basin and bath) and they are obviously able
to do the job (heat and pressure) but are there any rules prohibiting
their use at the heater end, or does anyone have general thoughts re
using them for such please? FWIW I think I've seen them used to
connect a combi boiler but that doesn't mean such is 'good practice'?

All the best ..

T i m




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Default Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

....
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't
sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking
questions like this. I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter
to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound. They may be
happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want
to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off
someone else's work.

--
John Stumbles

Procrastinate now!
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Default Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:00:34 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use.


Ok, thanks (I'd guessed as much) and why I phrased it like I did. But
fine for the water heater connectors though John? I was more unsure
about the flow rate but as they are already elsewhere in the system
I'm not sure it's that relevant? Are there some that offer less
resistance (for the same nominal connection size) would you know
please? The bottom line is final flow rate is probably more a function
of the heater stat than any pipework.

To be honest it really doesn't
sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking
questions like this.


You are probably right. However I did re-plumb (water and gas) and
wire this house when I bought it ~30 years ago and it's all been ok so
far (could just be just luck I guess)? ;-)

I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter


Yeah, I helped one of them bleed his radiator .. he'd been on it an
hour apparently! ;-)

to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound.


It's my house and trust me, there is no one more keen to ensure all
those points are correct than I am. BTW, I've ordered a new flue and
case seal, just because.

They may be
happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want
to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off
someone else's work.


As it happens he will be here for all the key stages (he's just not
about today) .. like I said, I want it right .. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

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Default Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?

On 7 Apr, 19:00, John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:
Hi All,


I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't
sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking
questions like this. I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter
to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound. They may be
happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want
to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off
someone else's work.

--
John Stumbles


Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited
for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure.
Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the
temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...?
Jon.
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Default Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?

On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700 (PDT), Tournifreak
wrote:

On 7 Apr, 19:00, John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:
Hi All,


I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't
sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking
questions like this. I suggest you get in a qualified (i.e. CORGI) fitter
to ensure the gas pipework, ventilation and flueing are sound. They may be
happy for you to DIY non-gas parts of the work but if it were me I'd want
to be involved from the outset rather than asked to come in and sign off
someone else's work.

--
John Stumbles


Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited
for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure.
Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the
temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...?
Jon.


The plastic pipe bringing gas into my house (above ground) doesn't
look that special Jon?

I agree the fire thing is the most likely reason.

I was also half expecting a "yes you can but you have to use a
BS1234/Z fireproof one" as gear seems to move at such a rate these
days.

All the best ..

T i m





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Default Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't
sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking
questions like this.



I dunno, I wouldn't have known this when I was looking to install my
first boiler



--
geoff
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In message , T i m
writes
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:00:34 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use.


Ok, thanks (I'd guessed as much) and why I phrased it like I did. But
fine for the water heater connectors though John? I was more unsure
about the flow rate but as they are already elsewhere in the system
I'm not sure it's that relevant? Are there some that offer less
resistance (for the same nominal connection size) would you know
please?

Personally, I'd just do a proper job and have done with it

Actually Ed can only be a few miles down the road from you if you want
your gas connection done and tested ...


--
geoff
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In message , geoff
writes
In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't
sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking
questions like this.



I dunno, I wouldn't have known this when I was looking to install my
first boiler

Which reminds me

when my brother moved into his last house, the gas cooker was connected
to the main via a bit of garden hose and a couple of jubilee clips

--
geoff
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Default Using flexible hoses to gas water heater?

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700, Tournifreak wrote:

Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited
for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure.
Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the
temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...?
Jon.


Because they're not approved for gas (specifically natural gas in this
case). *Any* fitting not approved for gas is prohibited. It's regulation
mumblesomething or other/mumble in the Gas Safety Installation & Use
Regs.

As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to
convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would
cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the
influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position is
a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise.

--
John Stumbles

I can't stand intolerance
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On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:47:32 GMT, geoff wrote:


Personally, I'd just do a proper job and have done with it


As will I .. I was only asking out of interest.

Actually Ed can only be a few miles down the road from you if you want
your gas connection done and tested ...


Thanks for the suggestion Geoff but I have a CORGI guy on hand for all
the important bits. Plus the new flue and case seals won't be in till
Wednesday so there's no rush etc.

In fact it gives me time to move the water pipes about etc.

All the best ..

T i m



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On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 23:56:28 +0100, me9 wrote:

So I won't be able to use my old bunsen burner stored in the loft? It
was OK 45 years ago.


You might want to put a new hose on it :-)

And I'm not sure what you'd connect it to - those push-on tapered & ribbed
gas taps we used to have on lab benches at school would surely not be
legal today. Still there must be provision for it somewhere in the regs or
chem labs would be out of business. There's even a provision that allows
you to do a gas installation in ways that would contravene the regs except
that it's in a workshop where gas fitters are taught gas safety.


--
John Stumbles

Blamestorming
Sitting around in a group, discussing why a deadline was missed
or a project failed, and who was responsible.
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On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:37:31 GMT, geoff wrote:

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use. To be honest it really doesn't
sound as if you have the competence to do this job if you're asking
questions like this.



I dunno, I wouldn't have known this when I was looking to install my
first boiler


In the real world Geoff there are loads of things that are just
bureaucracy. I know John means well and there is no way I will be
doing anything against code but the point is there are probably loads
of things in millions of installations that wouldn't meet today's code
but are *still* perfectly safe.

That's not to say they couldn't be made better or safer but you only
have to see what they *still* get away with in other parts of the
world (and closer to home when they think no one is looking) to know
that folk get away with all sorts of stuff.

It's not in my nature to try to 'get away' with anything .. being Mr
over cautious or over engineered (or over fussy), but I know where to
draw the line and I can use common sense.

Our daughter has a small wall mounted balanced flue fire in her room
and the thermocouple has just failed. I've removed the thermocouple
(new one will be in tomorrow) but I could have taken one out of the
brand new fire I still have sitting in it's box. I didn't because I
see no point disturbing a new fire for the sake of a few hours. I
could have (easily) changed the whole fire but that would mean
touching the gas and I wouldn't want to do that! ;-)

All the best ..

T i m





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On 2008-04-08 00:22:34 +0100, John Stumbles said:

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 23:56:28 +0100, me9 wrote:

So I won't be able to use my old bunsen burner stored in the loft? It
was OK 45 years ago.


You might want to put a new hose on it :-)

And I'm not sure what you'd connect it to - those push-on tapered & ribbed
gas taps we used to have on lab benches at school would surely not be
legal today.


That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich
bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just
lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of
oomph.



Still there must be provision for it somewhere in the regs or
chem labs would be out of business.


I think they are, aren't they as far as schools are concerned?


There's even a provision that allows
you to do a gas installation in ways that would contravene the regs except
that it's in a workshop where gas fitters are taught gas safety.


Is there a kind of initiation ceremony? You know, trouser legs rolled
up, that kind of thing.....



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wrote in message ...
On 7 Apr,
John Stumbles wrote:

As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to
convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would
cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the
influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position
is
a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise.


So I won't be able to use my old bunsen burner stored in the loft? It was
OK
45 years ago.


He never said you wouldn't be able to do this or the OP wouldn't be able to
use flexible connectors. He said they were prohibited, which they are, with
all the attendant legal (and, possibly but not necessarily, non-obvious
safety risks). We are all able to do more than 30 in a 30MPH zone but it's
prohibited. If you fancy trying your old bunsen burner, carry on (just don't
ask if it's legal!)


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq...

That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich
bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just
lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of
oomph.


I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM


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In article ,
John Stumbles writes:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700, Tournifreak wrote:

Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited
for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure.
Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the
temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...?
Jon.


Because they're not approved for gas (specifically natural gas in this
case). *Any* fitting not approved for gas is prohibited. It's regulation
mumblesomething or other/mumble in the Gas Safety Installation & Use
Regs.

As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to
convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would
cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the
influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position is
a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise.


Another reason is that you aren't allowed to use flexible hose to
connect a gas appliance with a fixed flue, because it might allow
the appliance to be operated in a position with the flue disconnected.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:32 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I'm replacing our own Main Avon multipoint water heater with a newer
Main Medway jobby.

...
So, I can either move them all in soldered copper, use compression
copper fittings or for the water at least use flexible tap connectors?
(Can they also be used for gas out of interest .. considering much
gas plumbing is in plastic these days (in the road at least!)) ;-)


They're absolutely prohibited for gas use.


The "bendable" corrugated copper flexes can be used on gas. Using a water
flexible connection is legal. There is nothing against any regulation that I
know of that says they cannot be used at an appliance. One with an integral
isolator would be the best bet.

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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:36:31 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Another reason is that you aren't allowed to use flexible hose to
connect a gas appliance with a fixed flue, because it might allow
the appliance to be operated in a position with the flue disconnected.


Unless the flue is also flexible

(A clue to what sort of appliance might have such an arrangement is in an
earlier post of mine starting a different thread - for those curious
enough to look!)

--
John Stumbles

Procrastinate now!
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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:46:58 +0000, T i m wrote:

p.s. I still haven't had an answer re the use of the stainless braided
flexible hoses for the water connections on this multipoint?

I'm pretty sure I've removed a boiler for a mate (it had all been
decommissioned gas-wise) and that had all the water terminations made
with such (15 and 22mm)? This doesn't mean it's a good thing of
course, just that someone has used them for said.


ISTR there's a regulation somewhere (one of the British Standards?)
that appliances such as boilers must have the first metre of pipework in
copper. (Presumably steel would be OK, but not plastic or rubber.)

--
John Stumbles

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous


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"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:46:58 +0000, T i m wrote:

p.s. I still haven't had an answer re the use of the stainless braided
flexible hoses for the water connections on this multipoint?

I'm pretty sure I've removed a boiler for a mate (it had all been
decommissioned gas-wise) and that had all the water terminations made
with such (15 and 22mm)? This doesn't mean it's a good thing of
course, just that someone has used them for said.


ISTR there's a regulation somewhere (one of the British Standards?)
that appliances such as boilers must have the first metre of pipework in
copper. (Presumably steel would be OK, but not plastic or rubber.)


There isn't such reg. Some makers will allow plastic pipe right up to the
boiler. Usually when the connections are outside the boiler casing.

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"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Stumbles writes:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:35:07 -0700, Tournifreak wrote:

Out of interest, *why* are flexible water hoses absolutely prohibited
for gas connections? As Tim said, they can easily handle the pressure.
Except in the event of a fire, they could easily handle the
temperature too... Ah, perhaps I've just answered my own question...?
Jon.


Because they're not approved for gas (specifically natural gas in this
case). *Any* fitting not approved for gas is prohibited. It's regulation
mumblesomething or other/mumble in the Gas Safety Installation & Use
Regs.

As for suitability for the purpose, garden hose would probably also do to
convey gas, but there are various possible failure modes which would
cause danger such as the material perishing over time or under the
influence of stuff in the gas, or heat etc. Basically the legal position
is
a presumtion of un-safety unless proved and certified otherwise.


Another reason is that you aren't allowed to use flexible hose to
connect a gas appliance with a fixed flue, because it might allow
the appliance to be operated in a position with the flue disconnected.


What do you mean?

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In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq...

That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill
sandwich bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and
just lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a
bit of oomph.


I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM


has he got a water rehydrator as well ?

--
geoff
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On 2008-04-08 09:27:13 +0100, Rod said:


When corgis were the Queen's dogs...


Camilla?


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On 2008-04-08 09:49:28 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:



"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq...

That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich
bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just
lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of
oomph.


I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM



Oh dear.

I believe that these are a better solution than cylinders




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Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-08 09:27:13 +0100, Rod said:


When corgis were the Queen's dogs...


Camilla?


And the queen wasn't Elton John?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org
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"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47fab23a@qaanaaq...

That's really disappointing. It used to be great fun to fill sandwich
bags wth gas and some residual air and light it. That and just
lighting the gas coming from the tap itself. Some had quite a bit of
oomph.


I must try that again now my dad has an oxygen concentrator.. booOOOOOM


Won't work, oxygen does not ignite.


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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:23:06 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

The "bendable" corrugated copper flexes can be used on gas.


They *can* (ad can garden hose) but they *may* not unless the fitting is
approved for use with gas. I've never checked whether they are
or not: I've never been inclined to use them.


--
John Stumbles

This message has been rot13 encrypted twice for added security
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"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:23:06 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

The "bendable" corrugated copper flexes can be used on gas.


They *can* (ad can garden hose) but they *may* not unless the fitting is
approved for use with gas. I've never checked whether they are
or not: I've never been inclined to use them.


They have copper tails and any solder or compression fitting can be used.
They are not cheap. Only used to get out of a scrape.

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Which flexible tap hoses do I need?! Lobster UK diy 7 July 16th 05 10:46 AM
Life of Flexible Hoses Edward W. Thompson UK diy 6 July 11th 05 07:38 PM


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