On 30 Mar, 23:13, wrote:
Hi folks...

I hope I am asking this in the right group...

I am thinking of putting in a waterfall in my garden. Maybe more a
cascading stream than waterfall.
My intention is to have a head of about 1m with a fairly rapid drop
into a smallish pond.

I have two options: Buy a precast one or build my own.
Precast are rather costly for what you get and don't always look the
part.
Building your own - a challenge. Not one that I am afraid of though.
(Obviously not informed

My idea on building one is to build a steel framed box about 1m high
with a random taper ff each side.
Then to cover this with chicken wire and bend to shape. Once happy, I
can cover with some mortar and rocks.
As for the parts that will get wet, I thought of covering the concrete
with fibreglass and a layer of pebbles on top to hide the obvious.
The width of the water section will be around 500mm.

Does this sound do-able? Anyone tried this and had problems? Any
better ideas?

To get a preformed one will cost around £350 and not be exactly what I
want. My option looks like it'll come well below that. And more so, be
what I want.

Thanks for any tips / ideas.

Regards,
Crispin

I don't have an answer, but I'm taking the liberty of cross-posting to
uk.d-i-y for you, because they love this sort of thing ;-)

On Mar 31, 12:15 pm, Martin Pentreath
wrote:

My idea on building one is to build a steel framed box about 1m high
with a random taper ff each side.
Then to cover this with chicken wire and bend to shape. Once happy, I
can cover with some mortar and rocks.

Why not get a large block of polystyrene foam? Lighter and cheaper
than steel, and it won't go rusty. Hack into the shape you want and
cover with chicken wire and cement.

On Mar 31, 2:54*am, Matty F wrote:
On Mar 31, 12:15 pm, Martin Pentreath
wrote:

My idea on building one is to build a steel framed box about 1m high
with a random taper ff each side.
Then to cover this with chicken wire and bend to shape. Once happy, I
can cover with some mortar and rocks.

Why not get a large block of polystyrene foam? Lighter and cheaper
than steel, and it won't go rusty. Hack into the shape you want and
cover with chicken wire and cement.

Martin: Thanks - I had thought of that but thought here might be a
better option. I'll watch that one as well..
Matt: Nice idea. Thanks. Much easier to form and if I don't like the
shape it's easier / cheaper to start again

On 31 Mar, 06:24, wrote:
On Mar 31, 2:54 am, Matty F wrote:

On Mar 31, 12:15 pm, Martin Pentreath
wrote:

My idea on building one is to build a steel framed box about 1m high
with a random taper ff each side.
Then to cover this with chicken wire and bend to shape. Once happy, I
can cover with some mortar and rocks.

Why not get a large block of polystyrene foam? Lighter and cheaper
than steel, and it won't go rusty. Hack into the shape you want and
cover with chicken wire and cement.

Martin: Thanks - I had thought of that but thought here might be a
better option. I'll watch that one as well..
Matt: Nice idea. Thanks. Much easier to form and if I don't like the
shape it's easier / cheaper to start again

On 31 Mar, 06:24, wrote:
On Mar 31, 2:54 am, Matty F wrote:

On Mar 31, 12:15 pm, Martin Pentreath
wrote:

My idea on building one is to build a steel framed box about 1m high
with a random taper ff each side.
Then to cover this with chicken wire and bend to shape. Once happy, I
can cover with some mortar and rocks.

Why not get a large block of polystyrene foam? Lighter and cheaper
than steel, and it won't go rusty. Hack into the shape you want and
cover with chicken wire and cement.

Martin: Thanks - I had thought of that but thought here might be a
better option. I'll watch that one as well..
Matt: Nice idea. Thanks. Much easier to form and if I don't like the
shape it's easier / cheaper to start again

Oops hit the wrong button !

The polystyrene block might be a good idea bu the cement coating idea
is a no-no and I don't know what to offer as an alternative other than
fibre glass.. The cement will leach into the water and add minerals
which algae will thrive on. I suppose it is possible to seal the
cement, but a 1 m high wall of cement will look pretty unnatural and I
suspect if it is sealed nothing will grow on it to blend it in.

Rob

On 31 Mar, 01:15, Martin Pentreath
wrote:
On 30 Mar, 23:13, wrote:



Hi folks...

I hope I am asking this in the right group...

I am thinking of putting in a waterfall in my garden. Maybe more a
cascading stream than waterfall.
My intention is to have a head of about 1m with a fairly rapid drop
into a smallish pond.

I have two options: Buy a precast one or build my own.
Precast are rather costly for what you get and don't always look the
part.
Building your own - a challenge. Not one that I am afraid of though.
(Obviously not informed

My idea on building one is to build a steel framed box about 1m high
with a random taper ff each side.
Then to cover this with chicken wire and bend to shape. Once happy, I
can cover with some mortar and rocks.
As for the parts that will get wet, I thought of covering the concrete
with fibreglass and a layer of pebbles on top to hide the obvious.
The width of the water section will be around 500mm.

Does this sound do-able? Anyone tried this and had problems? Any
better ideas?

To get a preformed one will cost around £350 and not be exactly what I
want. My option looks like it'll come well below that. And more so, be
what I want.

Thanks for any tips / ideas.

Regards,
Crispin

I don't have an answer, but I'm taking the liberty of cross-posting to
uk.d-i-y for you, because they love this sort of thing ;-)

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray (or a preformed
unit) and arrange the whole thing in it ! Must be strong enough for
the big rocks. Or you can get a sheet of rock cut, and use this as an
"edge" for the cascade.
If pumping from a pond, don't underestimate the amount of water
"absorbed" by the waterfall constuction. When the pump is off all the
water will be in the pond, and the pond can almost run dry when the
pump is started if not large enough. There are pond-building
websites / books with rules of thumb for all this.
Simon.

Thanks guys....

The concrete was to be used to strength with the fibreglass over it.
However, with the second option, I could just put the fibreglass. Not
sure about the weight though.. I suspect I might still need something
under it for strength.

As for the waterfall absorbing the water, I have been thinking about
this. Another issue is, ultimately, I want a little stream to a second
pond (where the pump will actually be). This will obviously mean a lot
more water is needed before it starts recycling. Waterfall needs
filling, the stream needs filling etc. The bottom pond will be deep
(for volume) but have shallow / rocky sides so you won't see the water
level drop drastically.

To aggravate the situation, I don't intend running the pump all the
time. This means I cannot "get it started and top it up".

Maybe I am being to ambitious

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray





Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow he
http://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm


pk

wrote:
Thanks guys....

The concrete was to be used to strength with the fibreglass over it.
However, with the second option, I could just put the fibreglass. Not
sure about the weight though.. I suspect I might still need something
under it for strength.

As for the waterfall absorbing the water, I have been thinking about
this. Another issue is, ultimately, I want a little stream to a second
pond (where the pump will actually be). This will obviously mean a lot
more water is needed before it starts recycling. Waterfall needs
filling, the stream needs filling etc. The bottom pond will be deep
(for volume) but have shallow / rocky sides so you won't see the water
level drop drastically.

To aggravate the situation, I don't intend running the pump all the
time. This means I cannot "get it started and top it up".

Maybe I am being to ambitious

Have a third "pond" - actually a covered tank of some sort. A small weir
from the second pond to the third.

So you pump from the third pond to the top. When that water gets to the
second pond any excess over what fills that pond goes over the weir into
the third pond. By being covered you don't notice the level of the third
pond at all and that of the second remains static.

You will also need to have a means by which the third pond can lose
excess water when there is heavy rain.

(I used to have a house which had a single visible pond and a waterfall
down a cliff-like face. This had a hidden second pond. The arrangement
didn't work properly as the concrete was porous and had cracked, but the
idea was fine. The hidden pond was very popular with frogs...)
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 31 Mar, 10:03, Rod wrote:
wrote:
Thanks guys....

The concrete was to be used to strength with the fibreglass over it.
However, with the second option, I could just put the fibreglass. Not
sure about the weight though.. I suspect I might still need something
under it for strength.

As for the waterfall absorbing the water, I have been thinking about
this. Another issue is, ultimately, I want a little stream to a second
pond (where the pump will actually be). This will obviously mean a lot
more water is needed before it starts recycling. Waterfall needs
filling, the stream needs filling etc. The bottom pond will be deep
(for volume) but have shallow / rocky sides so you won't see the water
level drop drastically.

To aggravate the situation, I don't intend running the pump all the
time. This means I cannot "get it started and top it up".

Maybe I am being to ambitious

Have a third "pond" - actually a covered tank of some sort. A small weir
from the second pond to the third.

So you pump from the third pond to the top. When that water gets to the
second pond any excess over what fills that pond goes over the weir into
the third pond. By being covered you don't notice the level of the third
pond at all and that of the second remains static.

You will also need to have a means by which the third pond can lose
excess water when there is heavy rain.

(I used to have a house which had a single visible pond and a waterfall
down a cliff-like face. This had a hidden second pond. The arrangement
didn't work properly as the concrete was porous and had cracked, but the
idea was fine. The hidden pond was very popular with frogs...)
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

This waterproofing this is a big issue. We had a nice waterfall
feature ruined by a tear in the liner somewhere underneath the rocks !
Simon.

sm_jamieson wrote:
On 31 Mar, 10:03, Rod wrote:
wrote:
Thanks guys....
The concrete was to be used to strength with the fibreglass over it.
However, with the second option, I could just put the fibreglass. Not
sure about the weight though.. I suspect I might still need something
under it for strength.
As for the waterfall absorbing the water, I have been thinking about
this. Another issue is, ultimately, I want a little stream to a second
pond (where the pump will actually be). This will obviously mean a lot
more water is needed before it starts recycling. Waterfall needs
filling, the stream needs filling etc. The bottom pond will be deep
(for volume) but have shallow / rocky sides so you won't see the water
level drop drastically.
To aggravate the situation, I don't intend running the pump all the
time. This means I cannot "get it started and top it up".
Maybe I am being to ambitious
Have a third "pond" - actually a covered tank of some sort. A small weir
from the second pond to the third.

So you pump from the third pond to the top. When that water gets to the
second pond any excess over what fills that pond goes over the weir into
the third pond. By being covered you don't notice the level of the third
pond at all and that of the second remains static.

You will also need to have a means by which the third pond can lose
excess water when there is heavy rain.

(I used to have a house which had a single visible pond and a waterfall
down a cliff-like face. This had a hidden second pond. The arrangement
didn't work properly as the concrete was porous and had cracked, but the
idea was fine. The hidden pond was very popular with frogs...)
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

This waterproofing this is a big issue. We had a nice waterfall
feature ruined by a tear in the liner somewhere underneath the rocks !
Simon.

I sort of forgave this - it had been done by an Italian prisoner of war
during or just after WW2. Earthquakes had probably caused the worst of
the cracks - not far from Bishops Castle.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Mar 31, 9:55 am, "PK" wrote:
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray



Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow hehttp://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm

pk

Unfortunately Mr Dyers CD rom seems to be no longer available but his
site gives some ideas on what can be done, if your an artist, and some
examples of what you won`t want to be seeing.......

http://www.waterfeatures.co.uk/

Waterfall wants to be built in what Mr Dyer calls a waterproof bag,
the liner goes below all the rock work which is mortared on to it,
using landscape fabric to protect it. Liner should be well above
maximum water level all round and even be part of the same piece that
lines the pond or at least with a major overlap. All the flaps and
edges of the liner are hidden by rock work and planting. Pick your
ricks carefully.

Water should enter the fall at a few points , not just one hose at the
top, he has a great example where the final fall into the pond is
flowing a lot more water than the small stream apparently feeding it.

Pond itself should be dug so that the bottom of edging stones are
Below the level of the water, then the liner comes up the back of the
stones and is tucked under the turf. Intial edge of pond should be a
beach, with very slight slope covered in gravel and shingle,
impression should be of the edging stones `floating` in the water when
pond is full and beach allows for certain amount of level drop,
importantly the liner is never left showing.

HTH
Adam

You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

This will be the waterfall as well as the cascading stream down to
pond 1. I can then have little stream to pond 2. Finally, I like the
idea of the 3rd pond. Very neat. It'll have to be = pipe volume +
Stream volume + Waterfall volume.

Thanks for the links and info. Plenty reading for me to do

In my mind's eye, I can see this clearly. Now to implement this!
Anyone got any spare time? I have many spare beers (Well, not spare
but willing to share) and lots of food. I'll provide everything, you
provide help / expertise

Cheers,
Crispin

On 31 Mar, 09:55, "PK" wrote:
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray



Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow hehttp://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm

pk

We used a cheap liner (PVC) and regretted it ever since. Butyl
stretches so it is less likely to rupture when pulled tight over a
stone.
Simon.

On Mar 31, 1:48 pm, sm_jamieson wrote:
On 31 Mar, 09:55, "PK" wrote:

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray

Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow hehttp://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm

pk

We used a cheap liner (PVC) and regretted it ever since. Butyl
stretches so it is less likely to rupture when pulled tight over a
stone.
Simon.

Thanks Simon - will remember that.

On Mar 31, 1:36 pm, wrote:
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks.

Sounds good

This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

Whoa, logs will rot out , natural log pile somewhere mebbe but not
supporting a waterfall.

I can then shape around this with concrete.

Dont want no stinking concrete, compacted soil and bricks are just
fine.

Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay,

Geotextile or landscape fabric is what your after,stops root invasion
into the liner, not frost protection fleece which is a lot thinner,
under the liner.
Use sand as well to form shapes and iron out creases.

Liner is matter of budget, polythene wont last more than a season dont
bother.
PVC is pretty good on the price/performance ratio but isnt very
stretchy,creases rather than moulds, and isnt very patchable if it
needs repair.
Synthetic rubbers like Firestone is pretty good.
Butyl rubber comes in various grades , some butyl rubbers dont have
very much butyl in them, it stretches, is repairable and lasts for
ever, it costs as you would imagine. One of many:

http://www.pond-liners-pumps-filters.co.uk/

then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

Look at the pictures on Paul Dyer`s site , lots of flat rocks that
will stack, not random shaped rocks that end up looking like a pit
bing.
Natural stone paving slabs break up nicely for things like this and
the rustic edging stones.
Again geotextile where you need it to stop rocks puncturing liner and
just enough sandy mortar mix to hold the rocks in place , concrete is
for motorway bridges.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

Dont use concrete ;-)
Underlay is always a good idea, geotextile not old carpet it rots.
Make sure your liner is well supported in firm soil with a layer of
sand and underlay and it wont tear unless you put a fork through it.

Concrete ponds almost traditionally leak and are often coated in G4 to
kill the porosity

http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/produ...tails/180.html

Bit evil to use though as its moisture curing dont want to spray it.

Easy solution don`t use cement for sealing ;-)


This will be the waterfall as well as the cascading stream down to
pond 1. I can then have little stream to pond 2. Finally, I like the
idea of the 3rd pond. Very neat. It'll have to be = pipe volume +
Stream volume + Waterfall volume.

Remember to put plumbing and wiring in for lighting before you start
mortaring things into place....

Adam


Thanks for the links and info. Plenty reading for me to do

In my mind's eye, I can see this clearly. Now to implement this!
Anyone got any spare time? I have many spare beers (Well, not spare
but willing to share) and lots of food. I'll provide everything, you
provide help / expertise

Cheers,
Crispin

On 31 Mar, 13:59, wrote:
On Mar 31, 1:48 pm, sm_jamieson wrote:



On 31 Mar, 09:55, "PK" wrote:

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

To make it look good you need real rocks (from a local quarry or
landscape gardening place. Build a big waterproof tray

Build a set of recessed steps into the bank, line with butyl, sit big rocks
on the steps, arrange small rocks and scree to hide the liner.

some numbers on water flow hehttp://www.californiawaterscapes.com...fall-build.htm

pk

We used a cheap liner (PVC) and regretted it ever since. Butyl
stretches so it is less likely to rupture when pulled tight over a
stone.
Simon.

Thanks Simon - will remember that.

Oh yes, and fix with a bicycle puncture repair kit !
Good luck,
Simon.

Adam, Charlie - thanks.

I know the issues with cement / concrete / mortar. As water proof as a
slice of toast. My last place had a homemade pond / waterfall which
leaked like a sieve. I eventually left it alone / dry.
This is why I want to get this one right.

The logs mentioned are just for incests / to fill the space. Not load
baring at all.
Again, thanks for the tips. Now I'm getting excited about it.....

One (one of many) questions that has popped into my head now is where
pond 1 goes into stream. I saw special glue to bond PVC liners. I
assume you can get the same stuff for the butyl rubber. Even a large
overlap, capillary action would suck it dry.

Think I'll go re-read everything tonight. Then, I'll write a book
(Credit to you all!

Cheers,
Crispin

On 31 Mar, 17:10, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 31, 3:35 pm, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:36:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

Some build boat hulls using a matrix of chicken wire covered with waterproof
cement. The result is very strong and completely waterproof.
Chicken wire ferro cement -http://www.green-trust.org/2003/ferrocement/default.htm
--

Martin

Martin,

What makes this waterproof? I'm kinda lost.
I get the chicken wire idea. is the cement special? An additive maybe?

They seem to use Portland Cement. Ask at a builders supply place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement
--

Martin

Try http://ferrocement.com

Artificial rock used to be a major Victorian curiosity, nothing like a
grotto for getting one up on the Jones`s on the next estate. Americans
are givng it a new lease of life try searching on Faux Rock places
like:

http://www.rockandwater.com/

HTH
Adam

On 2 Apr, 22:32, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 04:35:04 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby
wrote:



On 31 Mar, 17:10, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 31, 3:35 pm, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:36:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
You have all been most helpful!

I've been thinking about this on my lunchtime stroll to the shops.

I think I will build a box the rough height and width I want out of
bricks. This allows me to fill the box with logs. A space to be used
by critters at some point I hope.

I can then shape around this with concrete. Once the rough shape is
done, I can put down some of the underlay, some thick liner (I found
1mm rubber one) and then another layer of underlay, then finally more
concrete to hold the rocks in place. Enough [real] rocks and pebbles
and you will not see the main structure.

What about concrete cracking? Would the fact that the liner is between
two sheets of underlay resist tearing? Small cracks I would imagine
would survive. Greater than 1mm I have a bigger problem.

Some build boat hulls using a matrix of chicken wire covered with waterproof
cement. The result is very strong and completely waterproof.
Chicken wire ferro cement -http://www.green-trust.org/2003/ferrocement/default.htm
--

Martin

Martin,

What makes this waterproof? I'm kinda lost.
I get the chicken wire idea. is the cement special? An additive maybe?

They seem to use Portland Cement. Ask at a builders supply place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement
--

Martin

Try http://ferrocement.com

Artificial rock used to be a major Victorian curiosity, nothing like a
grotto for getting one up on the Jones`s on the next estate.

Schloss Linderhof has a complete underground grotto, complete with wood fired
heated pool for local nymphs, made out of ferro cement.
--

Martin

Pulhamite was the stuff was trying to remember:

http://www.pulham.org.uk

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/s...show/nav.18750

For the OP came across this basic instructable:

http://www.artificialrock.ca/form.html

Having watched prop builders turn unpromising blocks of poly into
perfect replica sphinxes and things , the building part is a skill
that you can learn, the abilty to turn it into what you can envision
is a talent that you cannae.

There was a touring replica of some French show caves built from
polystyrene a few years ago.

Adam