[The Simpsons]

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera
for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied.
Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires.
Thanks Fred

[signum]

Advise he buy a co alarm too!


On 23 Jan, 23:53, "The Simpsons"
wrote:
Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install *it, even if all the critera
for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied.
Are there any corgi *people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires.
Thanks Fred

[Edward W. Thompson]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 -0000, "The Simpsons"
wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera
for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied.
Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires.
Thanks Fred

Natural gas is principally methane (CH4). The products of combustion
are

CH4(g) + 2 O2(g) = CO2(g) + 2 H2O(l) (g=gas, I=vapour)

carbon dioxide and water. This is what you will be exhausting into
your living space. If your living space is well ventilated then I
suppose it could be claimed there is no problem although the
introduction of clean air will require more gas to be burned to heat
that air.

My view is this type of heater is best to be avoided. Corgi qualified
fitters have no specific expertise in this matter. It is simply a
matter of chemistry!

[andyv]

On 24 Jan, 07:56, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 -0000, "The Simpsons"

wrote:
Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install *it, even if all the critera
for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied.
Are there any corgi *people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires.
Thanks Fred

Natural gas is principally methane (CH4). *The products of combustion
are

CH4(g) + 2 O2(g) = CO2(g) + 2 H2O(l) (g=gas, I=vapour)

carbon dioxide and water. *This is what you will be exhausting into
your living space. *If your living space is well ventilated then I
suppose it could be claimed there is no problem although the
introduction of clean air will require more gas to be burned to heat
that air.

My view is this type of heater is best to be avoided. *Corgi
fitters have no specific expertise in this matter. *It is simply a
matter of chemistry!

We discussed this a couple of years back. What put me off was:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr023.pdf

[Ed Sirett]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the
critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there
any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks
Fred

The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration
of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally
put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires.
22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly
you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then).
Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat.
The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms.

If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the
regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who
feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near
open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do
work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without
taking on extra "risks" [1].

The + for flueless a
simple installation
inherent reliability
inherent high efficiency

The - a
possible odours
may aggravate condensation

[1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

[John Stumbles]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera
for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied.
Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires.
Thanks Fred

Wouldn't touch them with a bargepole, mainly because when I did my training
we didn't do anything about them, and one article in Gas Installer and the
Manufacturer's instructions don't give me sufficient confidence in my my
competence to install one safely that I'd risk a customer's neck and my
profession on it when there's plenty other work to do.


--
John Stumbles

My karma ran over my dogma

[The Simpsons]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the
critera
for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied.
Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these
fires.
Thanks Fred

Thanks all for the feedback, will pass it on.
F

[John Stumbles]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:17:51 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

---8--- verbal diahorrea drivel snipped ---8---

So what drongo is now forging messages as being from reputable[1]
uk.d-i-y'ers?


[1] Such as Ed. And also from me.

--
John Stumbles

Fundamentalist agnostic

[geoff]

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:17:51 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

---8--- verbal diahorrea drivel snipped ---8---

So what drongo is now forging messages as being from reputable[1]
uk.d-i-y'ers?

See the thread called "what's occurring"


--
geoff

[Edward W. Thompson]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the
critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there
any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks
Fred

The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration
of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally
put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires.
22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly
you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then).
Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat.
The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms.

If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the
regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who
feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near
open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do
work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without
taking on extra "risks" [1].

The + for flueless a
simple installation
inherent reliability
inherent high efficiency

The - a
possible odours
may aggravate condensation

[1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant.

I assume for CO (carbon monoxide) read CO2 (carbon dioxide). I would
be surprised that a device that emitted any level of carbon monoxide
in a home would be judged as 'safe'.

[Edward W. Thompson]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the
critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there
any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks
Fred

The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration
of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally
put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires.
22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly
you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then).
Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat.
The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms.

If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the
regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who
feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near
open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do
work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without
taking on extra "risks" [1].

The + for flueless a
simple installation
inherent reliability
inherent high efficiency

The - a
possible odours
may aggravate condensation

[1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant.

I don't know but hope that the composition of natural gas is
controlled by legislation. Even if it is the emission into a living
space by flueless devices depends entirely upon the gas meeting the
specified composition.

If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a
ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are
included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting
emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk, I
don't think I am.

[Tony Bryer]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000 Edward W. Thompson wrote :
If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a
ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are
included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting
emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk,
I don't think I am.

So would you outlaw gas cookers?

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

[The Simpsons]

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000 Edward W. Thompson wrote :
If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a
ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are
included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting
emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk,
I don't think I am.

So would you outlaw gas cookers?


Not comparing like with like.
People don't normally put their feet up and doze off in the kitchen.
F

[LSR]

The Simpsons wrote:
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000 Edward W. Thompson wrote :
If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a
ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are
included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting
emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk,
I don't think I am.

So would you outlaw gas cookers?


Not comparing like with like.
People don't normally put their feet up and doze off in the kitchen.
F

They would if the cooker is pouring out carbon monoxide.
--
LSR

[Ed Sirett]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:23:38 +0000, Edward W. Thompson wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi
fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all
the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are
there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these
fires. Thanks Fred

The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum
concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody
would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the
fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours
(but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long
before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source
of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms.

If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the
regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who
feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near
open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do
work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work
without taking on extra "risks" [1].

The + for flueless a
simple installation
inherent reliability
inherent high efficiency

The - a
possible odours
may aggravate condensation

[1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant.

I assume for CO (carbon monoxide) read CO2 (carbon dioxide). I would be
surprised that a device that emitted any level of carbon monoxide in a
home would be judged as 'safe'.

No, I know the difference. Whilst I can and do make many typos I mean CO.
22ppm was the maximum recorded value. That's not going to give you more
than a head ache and that was the worst case.
No vents, left on 8 hours, etc.

The danger in these devices is that they are not inherently safe enough
to continue using if they are neglected and begin to burn badly.




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

[Ed Sirett]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000, Edward W. Thompson wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi
fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all
the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are
there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these
fires. Thanks Fred

The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum
concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody
would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the
fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours
(but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long
before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source
of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms.

If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the
regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who
feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near
open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do
work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work
without taking on extra "risks" [1].

The + for flueless a
simple installation
inherent reliability
inherent high efficiency

The - a
possible odours
may aggravate condensation

[1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant.

I don't know but hope that the composition of natural gas is controlled
by legislation. Even if it is the emission into a living space by
flueless devices depends entirely upon the gas meeting the specified
composition.

If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a
ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are
included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting
emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk, I
don't think I am.

The composition of gas is controlled by various standards and is mostly
CH4, some C2H6, some N2 and some CO2 + various other trace things.
There is little or no CO in the gas. The CO is generated by poor
combustion.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

[Edward W. Thompson]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:14:09 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:23:38 +0000, Edward W. Thompson wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:

Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi
fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all
the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are
there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these
fires. Thanks Fred

The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum
concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody
would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the
fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours
(but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long
before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source
of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms.

If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the
regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who
feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near
open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do
work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work
without taking on extra "risks" [1].

The + for flueless a
simple installation
inherent reliability
inherent high efficiency

The - a
possible odours
may aggravate condensation

[1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant.

I assume for CO (carbon monoxide) read CO2 (carbon dioxide). I would be
surprised that a device that emitted any level of carbon monoxide in a
home would be judged as 'safe'.

No, I know the difference. Whilst I can and do make many typos I mean CO.
22ppm was the maximum recorded value. That's not going to give you more
than a head ache and that was the worst case.
No vents, left on 8 hours, etc.

The danger in these devices is that they are not inherently safe enough
to continue using if they are neglected and begin to burn badly.

I agree with you that the inherent safety of these devices is
questionable although I thought your position was the "risks are
perceived rather than actual".