[Unix Guru[_2_]]

Hello,

After researching the UK domestic water softener market it becomes
obvious that many (if not most) products use common components from the
same few manufacturers. In particular Autotrol and Fleck valves.

So I ask myself why pay a middle man's hefty mark-up when I should be
able to do it myself. And, as an added bonus, a self-assembled unit
should be cheaper to maintain.

So do people commonly assemble their own water softeners from commodity
parts? The parts themselves do seem to be readily available. But alas
the information and guidance is not.

[Andy Hall]

On 2007-08-28 18:48:28 +0100, Unix Guru said:

Hello,

After researching the UK domestic water softener market it becomes
obvious that many (if not most) products use common components from the
same few manufacturers. In particular Autotrol and Fleck valves.

So I ask myself why pay a middle man's hefty mark-up when I should be
able to do it myself. And, as an added bonus, a self-assembled unit
should be cheaper to maintain.

So do people commonly assemble their own water softeners from commodity
parts? The parts themselves do seem to be readily available. But alas
the information and guidance is not.

I looked at doing this at one point, but couldn't find a source of
parts significantly cheaper than ready made units.

There are a few products sold with hefty margins, but if you shop
around, prices are pretty good, so I decided not to bother. I may
look again, though.

The main things, if you want to look into this, are the choice of the
resin units to suit water usage - use the specs to determine size and
type - and then a suitable valve to go with it/them.

[Unix Guru[_2_]]

Andy Hall wrote:
I looked at doing this at one point, but couldn't find a source of parts
significantly cheaper than ready made units.

There are a few products sold with hefty margins, but if you shop
around, prices are pretty good, so I decided not to bother. I may
look again, though.

The main things, if you want to look into this, are the choice of the
resin units to suit water usage - use the specs to determine size and
type - and then a suitable valve to go with it/them.

Thanks for that Andy. It's interesting, analogous to wanting to assemble
a PC only to find that PC World will do it just as cheaply!

I already have an 8-year old Kinetico which has now expired. It was
while poking inside it that I realized how simply it could be assembled
if only I had the right information.

[Andy Hall]

On 2007-08-28 19:51:54 +0100, Unix Guru said:

Andy Hall wrote:
I looked at doing this at one point, but couldn't find a source of parts
significantly cheaper than ready made units.

There are a few products sold with hefty margins, but if you shop
around, prices are pretty good, so I decided not to bother. I may
look again, though.

The main things, if you want to look into this, are the choice of the
resin units to suit water usage - use the specs to determine size and
type - and then a suitable valve to go with it/them.

Thanks for that Andy. It's interesting, analogous to wanting to assemble
a PC only to find that PC World will do it just as cheaply!

I already have an 8-year old Kinetico which has now expired. It was
while poking inside it that I realized how simply it could be assembled
if only I had the right information.

Hmm..

I have a Kinetico that is now 22 years old.

About 5 years ago, it developed a fault that the main valves were
letting by and the regeneration cycle wasn't working.

I took it apart and discovered that two of the four valve plungers had
split apart and that the metering wheel wasn't going round properly.

I found a local water softener outfit who weren't a Kinetico dealer (at
least at the time) but were happy to source spares. Total outlay
was about £30 in plungers and a new metering wheel. I decided that
it was worth betting this much. Had it been £100, then no.

In the event, I stripped it down, cleaned it and fitted the
replacements - I suppose it took an hour or so.

It's been performing faultlessly ever since. If it fails any time
now, I am still ahead in terms of cash and time invested.

There's lots of gears and bits in the Kinetico control, but as long as
one is meticulous about which bits belong in which layer, it's not
difficult. The other two points are not to tighten the screws too
much and to put silicone grease on the O-rings and seals

[Si[_2_]]

In message , Unix Guru
writes
Andy Hall wrote:
I looked at doing this at one point, but couldn't find a source of parts
significantly cheaper than ready made units.

There are a few products sold with hefty margins, but if you shop
around, prices are pretty good, so I decided not to bother. I may
look again, though.

The main things, if you want to look into this, are the choice of the
resin units to suit water usage - use the specs to determine size and
type - and then a suitable valve to go with it/them.

Thanks for that Andy. It's interesting, analogous to wanting to assemble
a PC only to find that PC World will do it just as cheaply!

I already have an 8-year old Kinetico which has now expired. It was
while poking inside it that I realized how simply it could be assembled
if only I had the right information.

Kinetico is one of the water softener brands which are very much sold
rather than bought and have a high mark-up to suit. I chose an Atlantis
precisely because it was simply made using standard parts. I would avoid
using the drinking water kit that they give you 'free' though - the
connections on are uncommon so you're forced to use their cartridges the
price of which have gone from GBP11.75 to GBP22 in less than 3 years.

[Unix Guru[_2_]]

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-28 19:51:54 +0100, Unix Guru said:
Hmm..

I have a Kinetico that is now 22 years old.

About 5 years ago, it developed a fault that the main valves were
letting by and the regeneration cycle wasn't working.

I took it apart and discovered that two of the four valve plungers had
split apart and that the metering wheel wasn't going round properly.

I found a local water softener outfit who weren't a Kinetico dealer (at
least at the time) but were happy to source spares. Total outlay was
about £30 in plungers and a new metering wheel. I decided that it was
worth betting this much. Had it been £100, then no.

In the event, I stripped it down, cleaned it and fitted the replacements
- I suppose it took an hour or so.

It's been performing faultlessly ever since. If it fails any time
now, I am still ahead in terms of cash and time invested.

There's lots of gears and bits in the Kinetico control, but as long as
one is meticulous about which bits belong in which layer, it's not
difficult. The other two points are not to tighten the screws too much
and to put silicone grease on the O-rings and seals

My Kinetico has a leaking cylinder (which could be replaced), a leaking
inlet/outlet manifold (ditto), the meter would occasionally stick, and
the unit would often fail to soften. I finally gave up on the unit when
the Kinetico engineer proved unable to fix the leak. I declined his
further services.

Perhaps I could buy the parts and fix the unit myself, but frankly it's
caused so much trouble I just want to dump it.

One idea that does occur to me is to simply replace the Kinetico head
with a commodity valve/controller. Then I could re-use the good cylinder
and perhaps the enclosure too. But I need to research it more first.

[Unix Guru[_2_]]

Si wrote:
Kinetico is one of the water softener brands which are very much sold
rather than bought and have a high mark-up to suit. I chose an Atlantis
precisely because it was simply made using standard parts. I would avoid
using the drinking water kit that they give you 'free' though - the
connections on are uncommon so you're forced to use their cartridges the
price of which have gone from GBP11.75 to GBP22 in less than 3 years.

I bought a Kinetico because I liked the idea of a non-electric metered
unit with its constant supply of softened water. Had the unit been more
reliable then I would have been happy. But evidently the price commanded
by this product didn't translate into quality or reliability. I'll never
buy a Kinetico again.

[Andy Hall]

On 2007-08-28 23:39:42 +0100, Unix Guru said:

My Kinetico has a leaking cylinder (which could be replaced), a leaking
inlet/outlet manifold (ditto), the meter would occasionally stick, and
the unit would often fail to soften. I finally gave up on the unit when
the Kinetico engineer proved unable to fix the leak. I declined his
further services.

Perhaps I could buy the parts and fix the unit myself, but frankly it's
caused so much trouble I just want to dump it.

Given all of that, I don't think it's worth it.




One idea that does occur to me is to simply replace the Kinetico head
with a commodity valve/controller. Then I could re-use the good cylinder
and perhaps the enclosure too. But I need to research it more first.

I believe that they have their own fitting sizes etc. so probably not
worth doing this.

Given all of that, by the time you buy all the bits, you will have been
able to buy a new unit.

[Andy Hall]

On 2007-08-29 00:03:12 +0100, Unix Guru said:

Si wrote:
Kinetico is one of the water softener brands which are very much sold
rather than bought and have a high mark-up to suit. I chose an Atlantis
precisely because it was simply made using standard parts. I would avoid
using the drinking water kit that they give you 'free' though - the
connections on are uncommon so you're forced to use their cartridges the
price of which have gone from GBP11.75 to GBP22 in less than 3 years.

I bought a Kinetico because I liked the idea of a non-electric metered
unit with its constant supply of softened water. Had the unit been more
reliable then I would have been happy. But evidently the price commanded
by this product didn't translate into quality or reliability. I'll never
buy a Kinetico again.

Shame really.


I bought mine for much the same reason, and apart from the initial
outlay, have spent about £30 on bits for it in over 20 years.

Howevr, had I experienced the same failures I would make the same
decision about now buying one again.

The good news is that there are plenty of other metered valve controls
around nowadays so you can still have the same principle, which I think
is a good one. Some may need a little DC power supply, but I don't
see a big issue with that. I just rather like the metering idea, and
salt consumption is pretty good.

[Brian Sharrock]

"Unix Guru" wrote in message
...
Si wrote:
Kinetico is one of the water softener brands which are very much sold
rather than bought and have a high mark-up to suit. I chose an Atlantis
precisely because it was simply made using standard parts. I would avoid
using the drinking water kit that they give you 'free' though - the
connections on are uncommon so you're forced to use their cartridges the
price of which have gone from GBP11.75 to GBP22 in less than 3 years.

I bought a Kinetico because I liked the idea of a non-electric metered
unit with its constant supply of softened water. Had the unit been more
reliable then I would have been happy. But evidently the price commanded
by this product didn't translate into quality or reliability. I'll never
buy a Kinetico again.

Kinetico are not the only manufacturer to offer "non-electric metered units
with its constant supply of softened water". Such units are manufactured in
England with components suitable for British Water practises. Google 'East
Midlands Water' for some examples.

--

Brian

[Ian_m]

"Unix Guru" wrote in message
...
Hello,

After researching the UK domestic water softener market it becomes
obvious that many (if not most) products use common components from the
same few manufacturers. In particular Autotrol and Fleck valves.

So I ask myself why pay a middle man's hefty mark-up when I should be
able to do it myself. And, as an added bonus, a self-assembled unit
should be cheaper to maintain.

So do people commonly assemble their own water softeners from commodity
parts? The parts themselves do seem to be readily available. But alas
the information and guidance is not.
I found that people make their own water softeners in the US. They buy
prefilled resin large tubes, you have to buy these else the resin "escapes",
this is to do with the fact that the resin volume changes during use and if
not in a strong container will rupture the container and escape. They
installed these in their much larger than UK garages and just recharged by
manually pouring in salt water, leaving and manually washing out every
couple of months.

[Andrew Mawson]

"Ian_m" wrote in message
...
"Unix Guru" wrote in message
...
Hello,

After researching the UK domestic water softener market it becomes
obvious that many (if not most) products use common components
from the
same few manufacturers. In particular Autotrol and Fleck valves.

So I ask myself why pay a middle man's hefty mark-up when I should
be
able to do it myself. And, as an added bonus, a self-assembled
unit
should be cheaper to maintain.

So do people commonly assemble their own water softeners from
commodity
parts? The parts themselves do seem to be readily available. But
alas
the information and guidance is not.
I found that people make their own water softeners in the US. They
buy
prefilled resin large tubes, you have to buy these else the resin
"escapes",
this is to do with the fact that the resin volume changes during use
and if
not in a strong container will rupture the container and escape.
They
installed these in their much larger than UK garages and just
recharged by
manually pouring in salt water, leaving and manually washing out
every
couple of months.


....hmmm... well not really. The resin potentially escapes as it is in
the form of quite small granules. The resin bed in the container is
held back from escaping by a filter formed from a fine nylon mesh. The
containing cylinder needs to be strong as it may have to take mains
water pressure. Ask why I know this: I use approx 21 tons of water a
day spread over three shops and get the salt delivered by the ton load
!

AWEM

[Unix Guru[_2_]]

Andy Hall wrote:
I believe that they have their own fitting sizes etc. so probably not
worth doing this.

I wondered about that too, so I've carefully measured the fittings on my
Kinetico head assembly:

- The tank thread is NPSM 2 1/2 inch (nominal) with 8 threads per inch.
- The brine thread is NPT 3/8 inch (nominal) with 18 threads per inch.
- The distributor tube is 1 1/16 inch, or 27mm.

These fittings are identical to those on the Autotrol 255 and Fleck 5600
valves.

So while Kinetico manufacture a proprietary head assembly, they use
commodity components for the remainder of the unit.

This could get interesting.

[Unix Guru[_2_]]

Ian_m wrote:
I found that people make their own water softeners in the US.

Yes, the US water softener market does look more open and competitive
than the UK one.

When searching for information I invariably end up at the websites of US
manufacturers and retailers. These US sites provide lots of useful
information, in marked contrast to UK sites which seem intent on
disclosing as little information as possible.

[Owain]

Andrew Mawson wrote:
... get the salt delivered by the ton load

Made me think of the QVC saleswoman this morning, licked one of the
Pakistani Rock Salt Tea Light Holders and was surprised to find it
really was salty!

Owain

[Andy Hall]

On 2007-08-29 20:01:58 +0100, Owain said:

Andrew Mawson wrote:
... get the salt delivered by the ton load

Made me think of the QVC saleswoman this morning, licked one of the
Pakistani Rock Salt Tea Light Holders and was surprised to find it
really was salty!

Owain

Yes, but QVC saleswomen will do anything for an order.