UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default My Final post about central heating.

Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house. With your help I designed a system, bought the bits and
have now installed the wet bits. (Including a weekend without hot
water as I ran out of pipe on a Friday night). I was chuffed to bits
when I pressurised it for the first time and only had one leak in a
copper elbow that was a bugger to get to behind a joist.

BUT. I think I am going to hang myself. As soon as I walk away from
the keyboard. Sigh.

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

So after the work I'm stuffed. The zone valves are in manual open
mode so the system still works as a normal un zoned system, so all is
not lost. But the zone idea is out of the window now.

The controllers and stuff will be going back to the supplier in the
morning, no problem there. They're still in their box's unused. The
pipe work for the two zones will stay in place as ONE day if this
house lasts long enough, it may need a new boiler and the new heating
engineer can marvel at the readymade pipe work.

If left unused the two port valves will probably fur up, so I may as
well take them out and try to sell them on ebay or in the local rag
and get at least a few quid back from them.

Don't you just HATE days like this? Excuse me... hangs head out of
window

"AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
gurgle"

OK, You may all laugh hysterically now. I'll have my coat please.
It's that straight jacket over there...........
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,283
Default My Final post about central heating.


"Mike Barnard" wrote..


My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves.


Which model boiler do you have?
I have a 24Ri condensing non-combi which serves 2 heating zones and 1 hot
water zone.

Phil


  #3   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,046
Default My Final post about central heating.


"TheScullster" wrote in message
. uk...

"Mike Barnard" wrote..


My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves.


Which model boiler do you have?
I have a 24Ri condensing non-combi which serves 2 heating zones and 1 hot
water zone.


The end switches on the zone valves can be a part of the room stat circuit.
All off the boiler is off. The time clock energises the zone valves.

  #4   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Mike Barnard wrote:
Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house. With your help I designed a system, bought the bits and
have now installed the wet bits. (Including a weekend without hot
water as I ran out of pipe on a Friday night). I was chuffed to bits
when I pressurised it for the first time and only had one leak in a
copper elbow that was a bugger to get to behind a joist.

BUT. I think I am going to hang myself. As soon as I walk away from
the keyboard. Sigh.

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

So after the work I'm stuffed. The zone valves are in manual open
mode so the system still works as a normal un zoned system, so all is
not lost. But the zone idea is out of the window now.

The controllers and stuff will be going back to the supplier in the
morning, no problem there. They're still in their box's unused. The
pipe work for the two zones will stay in place as ONE day if this
house lasts long enough, it may need a new boiler and the new heating
engineer can marvel at the readymade pipe work.

If left unused the two port valves will probably fur up, so I may as
well take them out and try to sell them on ebay or in the local rag
and get at least a few quid back from them.

Don't you just HATE days like this? Excuse me... hangs head out of
window

"AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
gurgle"

OK, You may all laugh hysterically now. I'll have my coat please.
It's that straight jacket over there...........


Hold on a second.

There is ALWAYS a way.

Lets have more detail before you despair..

Do you have a wiring diag for the boiler?


  #5   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:10:54 +0100, "TheScullster"
wrote:


"Mike Barnard" wrote..


My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves.


Which model boiler do you have?


Its a Worcester Bosch.
ZWBR 7-30 R 30 HE plus.
GC Number 41 311 79

I have a 24Ri condensing non-combi which serves 2 heating zones and 1 hot
water zone.


The techie said that many WB combi's COULD zone, but "...sorry, not
this one."

Phil




  #6   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43,017
Default My Final post about central heating.

In article ,
Mike Barnard wrote:
My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


If it can be controlled by an external thermostat it can be controlled by
zone valves. That's not to say a ready made interface is available, though.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Barnard wrote:
My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


If it can be controlled by an external thermostat it can be controlled by
zone valves. That's not to say a ready made interface is available, though.

My thoughts exactly. What is needed is a diagram of how to..


Which I can probably do..

If we know how the boiler expects to be controlled.
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Barnard wrote:
My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


If it can be controlled by an external thermostat it can be controlled by
zone valves. That's not to say a ready made interface is available, though.


Ok..is it this one ?

http://www.worcester-bosch.ie/file.home/13231

That would appear to have a connection into the text unit thingie for
'TR2' which looks promising. See section 1.8

Yup. TR2 is the 'connection of an external room stat or frost stat' See
section 4.3

So that connection can be used to completely override the text display
thingie. That's what a frost stat does..

My guess is that an external clock and stat system could be used to
completely control the thing with e 'text display being set to 'nothing,
ever'


Or use the text display thing for one zone, then set up your motorized
zone valves, and external timers and stats and connect the MV switches
in parallel between the switched live and switched return on the TR2
connector block.

So that any zone that 'calls' for heat will override the text display.

See? simple innit?
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:52:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

My thoughts exactly. What is needed is a diagram of how to..


Which I can probably do..

If we know how the boiler expects to be controlled.


Scaning stuff now. Will post a link later tonight. Thanks for the
inputs.

  #10   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Mike Barnard wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:52:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

My thoughts exactly. What is needed is a diagram of how to..


Which I can probably do..

If we know how the boiler expects to be controlled.


Scaning stuff now. Will post a link later tonight. Thanks for the
inputs.

Don't bother, Found it and posted the links.

I suspect you could also integrate stuff by inserting valve gear between
the text display and the unit..

Reading between the lines that's low voltage anyway..so safe enough.

Need to know what you have plumbing/stat wise, then i can concoct a cqt
diag for you.

Meanwhile a poke with a voltmeter on pins 3,4 and F on that TR2 conector
wouldn't come amiss.


Looking again, at the cqt diag, there is I presume an internal motorized
valve to go between CH and hot water yes?

Presumably the text display thing is the 'master stat'

As I see it you have two options. Depending where the master stat /text
object is located.

1/. If the text thing is in a really cold place, you can use the extra
zone valves to shut down the zones as and when they are hot enough. That
is simple enough..just use them as mechanical valves fed via room stats
from the boiler switched live, so that when you switch the whole CH off,
thats the end of it.


2/. Essentially junk the text display..leave it connected, but wire up a
completely different timer and so on from the switched live that feeds
the whole shebang, connected to all your room stats, have them fire up
the motorized valves, and then connect all those zone valve switches in
parallel, between two of the terminals for 'TR2'.

I assume that hot water on a combi is NOT timed - its just 'on demand'?










  #11   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house.


For those who have offered to help, (thanks), this is all I have in
the way of diagrams. I can scan in better resolution I guess, but
obviously the file sizes would increase.

http://www.thunderin.co.uk/ch/boilerstuff.htm

As I understand it from the WB techies help the TR2 controller does
more than just send a "start now" signal. "It's a clever little box
of tricks" sayeth he. I can't see what else it can or should do
really, apart from sending a current saying I demand heat.

There are three terminals the box connects to. Marked 3, 4 and F.
There is another terminal marked A which is unused in any document I
have.

However, I do NOT want to destroy a circuit board by supplying high
voltages from the back of a zone valve to a terminal expecting low
voltages. Obviously.

Does this make any sense to anyone then?
  #12   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:06:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Barnard wrote:
My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


If it can be controlled by an external thermostat it can be controlled by
zone valves. That's not to say a ready made interface is available, though.


Ok..is it this one ?

http://www.worcester-bosch.ie/file.home/13231


hah. And I've just scanned pages from this very paper manual.

That would appear to have a connection into the text unit thingie for
'TR2' which looks promising. See section 1.8


Yup. TR2 is the 'connection of an external room stat or frost stat' See
section 4.3


Can't see where that is written. The pdf says...

"4.3 Mains Voltage external controls
connections
Externally wired controls are not required; the boiler has
a built-in text display programmer and frost protection.
The TR2 room thermostat (not supplied) provides additional
frost protection and compliance to Part L of the
Building Regulations."

But the pdf version is different from my paper one. My paper one just
shows a picture similar to 4.2.

So that connection can be used to completely override the text display
thingie. That's what a frost stat does..


My guess is that an external clock and stat system could be used to
completely control the thing with e 'text display being set to 'nothing,
ever'


I don't see a button to do that either.

Or use the text display thing for one zone, then set up your motorized
zone valves, and external timers and stats and connect the MV switches
in parallel between the switched live and switched return on the TR2
connector block.

So that any zone that 'calls' for heat will override the text display.

See? simple innit?


Doh... donuts please.
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Mike Barnard wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house.


For those who have offered to help, (thanks), this is all I have in
the way of diagrams. I can scan in better resolution I guess, but
obviously the file sizes would increase.

http://www.thunderin.co.uk/ch/boilerstuff.htm

As I understand it from the WB techies help the TR2 controller does
more than just send a "start now" signal. "It's a clever little box
of tricks" sayeth he. I can't see what else it can or should do
really, apart from sending a current saying I demand heat.

There are three terminals the box connects to. Marked 3, 4 and F.
There is another terminal marked A which is unused in any document I
have.

However, I do NOT want to destroy a circuit board by supplying high
voltages from the back of a zone valve to a terminal expecting low
voltages. Obviously.

Does this make any sense to anyone then?



Yup. Ive been looking at the manual some more.

It seems that TR2 allows the temperature of the room to be displayed..


So there is more to it than meets the eye..it also says something about
using low resistance low voltage wiring, which suggests that it is an
analogue rather than digital link..


Short of breaking into the boiler and accessing the main motorized valve
directly, its the best hope we have though.


Unless you simply use the zone valves as sort of mega TRV's (which is
still worth it).


Don't worry about the MV's sending mains voltages tho: Sure they need
mains to operate the valves, but the switches are just switches. And do
not have to be used.

However looking at that bloody boiler, one begins to appreciate how
de-skilled it is, and hence how lacking in versatility. Its obviously
designed to be used in a small house with one stat and probably TRV's...


Right. I took a final look at the setup instructions on the blasted
manual, and my guess is that the so called smart TR2 thing, is, as you
say, possibly a smart load of ********.


I must say I'd be tempted to break into the cabling that controls the
internal motorized valve, and bring the 'open for CH' circuits out to a
nice set of sockets meself, and run the MV's all off that..but it
probably voids the warranty.

I think you have two choices.

1/. Get a TR2 thingie, and reverse engineer parts of it, or add to it..

2/. simply use the zone valves as flow switches and forget about
connecting them to the boiler electrically altogether (for now anyway):
Then save up for a decent boiler 'one day' :-) Used with the TR2 room
stat, that should at least allow you to control the temps of individual
zones well, as long as the rads in the aree where TR2 is sited are
balanced right down, so that is the thing that always wants the heat the
most.






  #14   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default My Final post about central heating.


On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


--
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Mike Barnard wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:06:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Barnard wrote:
My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.
If it can be controlled by an external thermostat it can be controlled by
zone valves. That's not to say a ready made interface is available, though.

Ok..is it this one ?

http://www.worcester-bosch.ie/file.home/13231


hah. And I've just scanned pages from this very paper manual.

That would appear to have a connection into the text unit thingie for
'TR2' which looks promising. See section 1.8


Yup. TR2 is the 'connection of an external room stat or frost stat' See
section 4.3


Can't see where that is written. The pdf says...

"4.3 Mains Voltage external controls
connections
Externally wired controls are not required; the boiler has
a built-in text display programmer and frost protection.
The TR2 room thermostat (not supplied) provides additional
frost protection and compliance to Part L of the
Building Regulations."

But the pdf version is different from my paper one. My paper one just
shows a picture similar to 4.2.

So that connection can be used to completely override the text display
thingie. That's what a frost stat does..


My guess is that an external clock and stat system could be used to
completely control the thing with e 'text display being set to 'nothing,
ever'


I don't see a button to do that either.

Or use the text display thing for one zone, then set up your motorized
zone valves, and external timers and stats and connect the MV switches
in parallel between the switched live and switched return on the TR2
connector block.

So that any zone that 'calls' for heat will override the text display.

See? simple innit?


Doh... donuts please.



Se my last post. They have been more complex than I ever thought possible.

The zone valves are worth keeping tho, but you may not be able to use
them to actively *call* for heat. Just to passively REDUCE heat when the
main system is asking..



  #16   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.
  #17   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:04:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Mike Barnard wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house.


For those who have offered to help, (thanks), this is all I have in
the way of diagrams. I can scan in better resolution I guess, but
obviously the file sizes would increase.

http://www.thunderin.co.uk/ch/boilerstuff.htm

As I understand it from the WB techies help the TR2 controller does
more than just send a "start now" signal. "It's a clever little box
of tricks" sayeth he. I can't see what else it can or should do
really, apart from sending a current saying I demand heat.

There are three terminals the box connects to. Marked 3, 4 and F.
There is another terminal marked A which is unused in any document I
have.

However, I do NOT want to destroy a circuit board by supplying high
voltages from the back of a zone valve to a terminal expecting low
voltages. Obviously.

Does this make any sense to anyone then?



Yup. Ive been looking at the manual some more.


Thanks NP.

It seems that TR2 allows the temperature of the room to be displayed..


Yep, on the boiler. Why, I dunno, but it does.

So there is more to it than meets the eye..it also says something about
using low resistance low voltage wiring, which suggests that it is an
analogue rather than digital link..


Probably.

Short of breaking into the boiler and accessing the main motorized valve
directly, its the best hope we have though.


IF I knew how. I've a lot on my plate at the moment...

Unless you simply use the zone valves as sort of mega TRV's (which is
still worth it).


Don't worry about the MV's sending mains voltages tho: Sure they need
mains to operate the valves, but the switches are just switches. And do
not have to be used.


Makes sense.

However looking at that bloody boiler, one begins to appreciate how
de-skilled it is, and hence how lacking in versatility. Its obviously
designed to be used in a small house with one stat and probably TRV's...


But for all that it's very high in the efficiency, which is one of the
reasons I chose it. I was NOT thinking zoning back then. Obviously.

Right. I took a final look at the setup instructions on the blasted
manual, and my guess is that the so called smart TR2 thing, is, as you
say, possibly a smart load of ********.


As THEY say. Me, I'm a meccano person. If it fits, I'll fit it. If
it needs bending a little, I'll let someone else do it.

I must say I'd be tempted to break into the cabling that controls the
internal motorized valve, and bring the 'open for CH' circuits out to a
nice set of sockets meself, and run the MV's all off that..but it
probably voids the warranty.


Probably? "WB warranty dept? Hi. I need a new boiler gizmo because
I took this bit out, wired that bit in and it went pop, sizzle. Is
that OK? "

I think you have two choices.

1/. Get a TR2 thingie, and reverse engineer parts of it, or add to it..


Oh, I reverse engineer things like this all day!

2/. simply use the zone valves as flow switches and forget about
connecting them to the boiler electrically altogether (for now anyway):
Then save up for a decent boiler 'one day' :-)


OY! This is a decent boiler I'll have you know. It shows the
temprature on the display an evrithin.

Used with the TR2 room
stat, that should at least allow you to control the temps of individual
zones well, as long as the rads in the aree where TR2 is sited are
balanced right down, so that is the thing that always wants the heat the
most.


It's late, I need to study for my C&G and I'm ****ed off with boilers
just now. Thanks for the time you have spent looking at this and I'll
think about what to do in the next couple of days. I have no need to
rush.

Nighty night.
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:06:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So that any zone that 'calls' for heat will override the text display.

See? simple innit?


Doh... donuts please.



Se my last post. They have been more complex than I ever thought possible.

The zone valves are worth keeping tho, but you may not be able to use
them to actively *call* for heat. Just to passively REDUCE heat when the
main system is asking..


I understand what you are saying, but the reason I wanted zones was
for cold rooms to be able to call for heat when the main room is
already warm.

Oh well. See my other reply.

Night.
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default My Final post about central heating.

The electrickery bits of central heating are absolutely not my thing but I
can't see why, with any boiler, you can't have an external controller
driving the zone valves and stats which produces a single output to the
boiler telling it when to switch on. Even if you had to set the boiler to be
on 24/7 with its own controls it would still only fire up when it got a stat
signal saying the temperature was low enough. If the external controller
sends this signal rather than having the stat itself wired directly to the
boiler why wouldn't it work?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but as I say, I really don't do
electrics.
--
Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines


  #20   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default My Final post about central heating.

Mike Barnard wrote:

I think you have two choices.

1/. Get a TR2 thingie, and reverse engineer parts of it, or add to it..


Oh, I reverse engineer things like this all day!


Well look at the bright side. it only has three wires. ;-) Of which two
are probably power and ground. The third could well be a serial link...
got an oscilloscope handy?

(Where is Geoff when you need him? He will probably know what the PCB
does with this connection)

It's late, I need to study for my C&G and I'm ****ed off with boilers
just now. Thanks for the time you have spent looking at this and I'll
think about what to do in the next couple of days. I have no need to
rush.


Good plan.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default My Final post about central heating.

Dave Baker wrote:

The electrickery bits of central heating are absolutely not my thing but I
can't see why, with any boiler, you can't have an external controller
driving the zone valves and stats which produces a single output to the
boiler telling it when to switch on. Even if you had to set the boiler to be
on 24/7 with its own controls it would still only fire up when it got a stat
signal saying the temperature was low enough. If the external controller
sends this signal rather than having the stat itself wired directly to the
boiler why wouldn't it work?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but as I say, I really don't do
electrics.


I think the difficulty here is there does not appear to be an external
input that would work with a traditional stat. The TR2 thingy
communicates "stuff" to the boiler including current temperature, but
not it seems, ans instruction when to turn on or off.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default My Final post about central heating.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.


There must be something that the TR2 can indicate that tells the boiler
it is getting a bit nippy in the room though, causing it to turn on. So
the next question is how to simulate that.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 774
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
mused:

Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house. With your help I designed a system, bought the bits and
have now installed the wet bits. (Including a weekend without hot
water as I ran out of pipe on a Friday night). I was chuffed to bits
when I pressurised it for the first time and only had one leak in a
copper elbow that was a bugger to get to behind a joist.

BUT. I think I am going to hang myself. As soon as I walk away from
the keyboard. Sigh.

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

So after the work I'm stuffed. The zone valves are in manual open
mode so the system still works as a normal un zoned system, so all is
not lost. But the zone idea is out of the window now.

The controllers and stuff will be going back to the supplier in the
morning, no problem there. They're still in their box's unused. The
pipe work for the two zones will stay in place as ONE day if this
house lasts long enough, it may need a new boiler and the new heating
engineer can marvel at the readymade pipe work.

If left unused the two port valves will probably fur up, so I may as
well take them out and try to sell them on ebay or in the local rag
and get at least a few quid back from them.

Don't you just HATE days like this? Excuse me... hangs head out of
window

"AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
gurgle"

OK, You may all laugh hysterically now. I'll have my coat please.
It's that straight jacket over there...........


So what's wrong with the 2 terminals next to the mains input for the
external controls?
--
Regards,
Stuart.
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,122
Default My Final post about central heating.

On 2007-07-10 19:04:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher said:

Yup. Ive been looking at the manual some more.

It seems that TR2 allows the temperature of the room to be displayed..


So there is more to it than meets the eye..it also says something
about using low resistance low voltage wiring, which suggests that it
is an analogue rather than digital link..


Short of breaking into the boiler and accessing the main motorized
valve directly, its the best hope we have though.


Unless you simply use the zone valves as sort of mega TRV's (which is
still worth it).


Don't worry about the MV's sending mains voltages tho: Sure they need
mains to operate the valves, but the switches are just switches. And do
not have to be used.

However looking at that bloody boiler, one begins to appreciate how
de-skilled it is, and hence how lacking in versatility. Its obviously
designed to be used in a small house with one stat and probably TRV's...


Right. I took a final look at the setup instructions on the blasted
manual, and my guess is that the so called smart TR2 thing, is, as you
say, possibly a smart load of ********.


I must say I'd be tempted to break into the cabling that controls the
internal motorized valve, and bring the 'open for CH' circuits out to a
nice set of sockets meself, and run the MV's all off that..but it
probably voids the warranty.

I think you have two choices.

1/. Get a TR2 thingie, and reverse engineer parts of it, or add to it..

2/. simply use the zone valves as flow switches and forget about
connecting them to the boiler electrically altogether (for now anyway):
Then save up for a decent boiler 'one day' :-) Used with the TR2 room
stat, that should at least allow you to control the temps of
individual zones well, as long as the rads in the aree where TR2 is
sited are balanced right down, so that is the thing that always wants
the heat the most.


I have a similar arrangement to this on my boiler (MAN Micromat).

This one, by default, wants to be in charge of the whole show and does
not require external controls and sensors, although it does come with
an external weather compensation temperature sensor - a semiconductor
analogue thing with two wire connection.

There are two switched live *outputs* which can go off to run external
pumps or motorised valves. Operation of that depends on settings in
the installer menu, hidden from the user. I have it set such that one
operates the CH zone valves and the other that for the HW cylinder.
The boiler then opens them according to heating/HW demand.

On the input side, there is a set of three connections, similar to the
WB arrangement. However, the boiler can be programmed to use them
in different ways. One is with a straight and simple set of volt free
contacts - in that mode, the boiler is turned on and off in the
traditional way.

The second mode uses a three wire connection to a specific room
controller. This device has time and temperature settings for the
heating (not HW), including night set back, optimised start. It
also has a control term to vary the relative influence of it vs. the
external temperature sensor as far as boiler operation is concerned.

The boiler is aware of the settings made on the room controller
including temperatures. Another aspect of this is that if you turn
up the control to increase the room temperature by a small amount - say
half a degree - the boiler modulates up a bit. Turn it three degrees
and it goes to full power.

A scope indicated what appears to be DC and ground on two of the wires
and a digital transmission on the third.

A bit more digging revealed that the controller itself was not made by
MAN but by Landis and Staefa (now part of Siemens Building
Technologies). They make a range of products that go with various
control systems on a standalone and OEM basis. The data sheet
describes the interface as being PPS, others in the range as PPS2 -
both appear to be proprietary interfaces. The transmission is there
the whole time - doesn't disappear out of hours or below the set point
or anything like that.

So coming back to Mike's project, I think you are right, from the
descriptions in the manual, there is probably more about this TR2
controller than a simple on/off or analogue interface. It may
well be using a similar concept to the Siemens controllers or even be
made by them - they have quite a product range. Reverse engineering
of the interface? Maybe, but decoding an unknown bit stream where
even the method of encoding isn't known, is not going to be trivial.

I wonder whether getting one of these TR2s and spoofing its analogue
temperature sensing might not be a better proposition. More than
likely that will be a thermistor or semiconductor sensor. The
manufacturer might even have helpfully marked it on the legend of the
PCB. Once the component is identified, it would be reasonably easy
to replace it with an appropriate set of resistors, diodes etc. and a
relay contact such that the controller is fooled into thinking that the
room temperature is very high or very low and stopping and starting the
boiler accordingly. Since the TR2 has a rotary temperature control,
that may operate a potentiometer inside. If that's the case, then
the job is even easier. Whip out the pot, a couple of resistors and
a relay and that's it.

These controllers cost about £45, which is not bad for a proprietary
thermostat. Dinking with one of these would mean not having to start
pulling about the boiler wiring and invalidating the warranty plus
whatever other unknowns might happen. For example, breaking into one
of the boiler internal wirings to a valve etc. might be detected by the
boiler controller and cause a fault lockout on the boiler.

In the worst case scenario with the TR2, the solution wouldn't work and
£45 would have been spent. It wouldn't affect the boiler.






  #25   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,122
Default My Final post about central heating.

On 2007-07-11 00:54:55 +0100, John Rumm said:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.


There must be something that the TR2 can indicate that tells the boiler
it is getting a bit nippy in the room though, causing it to turn on. So
the next question is how to simulate that.


Easier solution.

Spend £45 on a TR2 and pull it apart. Either spoof the temperature
sensor (probably thermistor or semiconductor) or the rotary control if
it's a pot. A couple of resistors and a small relay should be able
to have it convinced that the room temperature is changing or being
changed.

This avoids needing to break into the boiler and has much lower risk.




  #26   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,231
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:21:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Mike Barnard wrote:
Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house. With your help I designed a system, bought the bits and
have now installed the wet bits. (Including a weekend without hot
water as I ran out of pipe on a Friday night). I was chuffed to bits
when I pressurised it for the first time and only had one leak in a
copper elbow that was a bugger to get to behind a joist.

BUT. I think I am going to hang myself. As soon as I walk away from
the keyboard. Sigh.

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

So after the work I'm stuffed. The zone valves are in manual open
mode so the system still works as a normal un zoned system, so all is
not lost. But the zone idea is out of the window now.

The controllers and stuff will be going back to the supplier in the
morning, no problem there. They're still in their box's unused. The
pipe work for the two zones will stay in place as ONE day if this
house lasts long enough, it may need a new boiler and the new heating
engineer can marvel at the readymade pipe work.

If left unused the two port valves will probably fur up, so I may as
well take them out and try to sell them on ebay or in the local rag
and get at least a few quid back from them.

Don't you just HATE days like this? Excuse me... hangs head out of
window

"AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
gurgle"

OK, You may all laugh hysterically now. I'll have my coat please.
It's that straight jacket over there...........


Hold on a second.

There is ALWAYS a way.

Lets have more detail before you despair..

Do you have a wiring diag for the boiler?


Agreed.
There must be a a way to connect a wall themostat to the combi.
That is the way you drive the zoning.
Some WB models have all the connection for zoning builtin to save you
useing a wiring centre (such as the 24 SBi) that's probably what threw the
WB techies.

AL you need to do is connect the all the grey wires to one of the
thermostat terminals and all the orange wires to the other thermostat
terminal.






--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards
  #27   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,122
Default My Final post about central heating.

On 2007-07-11 07:14:07 +0100, Ed Sirett said:

Agreed.
There must be a a way to connect a wall themostat to the combi.


There is but it's a proprietary room controller.

There are a couple of terminals next to the mains input with a link
between them, but the manual seems to say nothing about them other than
that there is a link. Possibly this is a switched live, but it
doesn't seem to say.


That is the way you drive the zoning.
Some WB models have all the connection for zoning builtin to save you
useing a wiring centre (such as the 24 SBi) that's probably what threw the
WB techies.






AL you need to do is connect the all the grey wires to one of the
thermostat terminals and all the orange wires to the other thermostat
terminal.



  #28   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,158
Default My Final post about central heating.


"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
The electrickery bits of central heating are absolutely not my thing

but I
can't see why, with any boiler, you can't have an external

controller
driving the zone valves and stats which produces a single output to

the
boiler telling it when to switch on. Even if you had to set the

boiler to be
on 24/7 with its own controls it would still only fire up when it

got a stat
signal saying the temperature was low enough. If the external

controller
sends this signal rather than having the stat itself wired directly

to the
boiler why wouldn't it work?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but as I say, I really don't do
electrics.
--
Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines



That's precisely how my Potterton Kingfisher 150CF is wired up. No
electronics in it at all, just a pc based external controller doing
zone control on 8 zones. The actual boiler went in in 1985 and is
working well, though the controller is a bit newer having run since
about 1998.

AWEM


  #29   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Dave Baker wrote:
The electrickery bits of central heating are absolutely not my thing but I
can't see why, with any boiler, you can't have an external controller
driving the zone valves and stats which produces a single output to the
boiler telling it when to switch on.


You can.

If the boiler has a way of accepting such input.

This one does not.

Its completely integrated and comoputerised, and the only thing apart
from the mains that it takes, is a 'smart' room stat made by the
manufacturer ONLY.


Even if you had to set the boiler to be
on 24/7 with its own controls it would still only fire up when it got a stat
signal saying the temperature was low enough. If the external controller
sends this signal rather than having the stat itself wired directly to the
boiler why wouldn't it work?


If the whole boiler is off, then no hot water either..


Maybe I'm missing something obvious but as I say, I really don't do
electrics.


Its highly UN-obvious. Thats someone has finally produced the plumbers
dream and the DIY-ers nightmare. A boiler that doesn't need any
electrical installation, beyond hooking up to a switched fused spur and
turning it 'on'..
  #30   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-11 00:54:55 +0100, John Rumm
said:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.


There must be something that the TR2 can indicate that tells the
boiler it is getting a bit nippy in the room though, causing it to
turn on. So the next question is how to simulate that.


Easier solution.

Spend £45 on a TR2 and pull it apart. Either spoof the temperature
sensor (probably thermistor or semiconductor) or the rotary control if
it's a pot. A couple of resistors and a small relay should be able to
have it convinced that the room temperature is changing or being changed.

This avoids needing to break into the boiler and has much lower risk.


That was my thought too.


  #31   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 255
Default My Final post about central heating.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
Spend £45 on a TR2 and pull it apart. Either spoof the
temperature sensor (probably thermistor or semiconductor) or
the rotary control if it's a pot. A couple of resistors and
a small relay should be able to have it convinced that the
room temperature is changing or being changed.

This avoids needing to break into the boiler and has much lower
risk.


That was my thought too.


Use a little Peltier cooler to chill the temperature
sensor? Everything of WB manufacture then remains
unmodified, downstream replacements off the shelf,
and with all guarantees still in place.

--
Tony Williams.
  #32   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,046
Default My Final post about central heating.


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-11 07:14:07 +0100, Ed Sirett said:

Agreed.
There must be a a way to connect a wall themostat to the combi.


There is but it's a proprietary room controller.


I haven't looked. If the room controller is a resitance type (a temperature
sensor) then it is more difficult. If it is 12, 24, 240v then it may be a
matter of installing a simple relay. It may be a case of getting at the
clock terminals to switch the boiler on and off for zoning. If the clock
can be remote then the wires can be got at easily. The existing integrated
clock can stay at the 24 hrs setting (always on) and clock stats fitted
elsewhere for each zone.

  #33   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 774
Default My Final post about central heating.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:42:35 +0100, Lurch
mused:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
mused:

Firstly, my thanks to all who have helped, argued, discussed and
generally nosed around in my quest for the perfect CH system for my
little house. With your help I designed a system, bought the bits and
have now installed the wet bits. (Including a weekend without hot
water as I ran out of pipe on a Friday night). I was chuffed to bits
when I pressurised it for the first time and only had one leak in a
copper elbow that was a bugger to get to behind a joist.

BUT. I think I am going to hang myself. As soon as I walk away from
the keyboard. Sigh.

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

So after the work I'm stuffed. The zone valves are in manual open
mode so the system still works as a normal un zoned system, so all is
not lost. But the zone idea is out of the window now.

The controllers and stuff will be going back to the supplier in the
morning, no problem there. They're still in their box's unused. The
pipe work for the two zones will stay in place as ONE day if this
house lasts long enough, it may need a new boiler and the new heating
engineer can marvel at the readymade pipe work.

If left unused the two port valves will probably fur up, so I may as
well take them out and try to sell them on ebay or in the local rag
and get at least a few quid back from them.

Don't you just HATE days like this? Excuse me... hangs head out of
window

"AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
gurgle"

OK, You may all laugh hysterically now. I'll have my coat please.
It's that straight jacket over there...........


So what's wrong with the 2 terminals next to the mains input for the
external controls?


Or 3 if you cont the neutral as well, and being reasonably pedantic
I'd say it should be counted as a terminal and not left out.
--
Regards,
Stuart.
  #34   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43,017
Default My Final post about central heating.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The electrickery bits of central heating are absolutely not my thing
but I can't see why, with any boiler, you can't have an external
controller driving the zone valves and stats which produces a single
output to the boiler telling it when to switch on.


You can.


If the boiler has a way of accepting such input.


This one does not.


Its completely integrated and comoputerised, and the only thing apart
from the mains that it takes, is a 'smart' room stat made by the
manufacturer ONLY.


It would then be a matter of finding out what the actual switching signal
consists of. I suppose it might be some form of digital multiplex - how
many wires go to this controller?

But no matter how oddball it would be *possible* to intercept this control
data and alter it.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The electrickery bits of central heating are absolutely not my thing
but I can't see why, with any boiler, you can't have an external
controller driving the zone valves and stats which produces a single
output to the boiler telling it when to switch on.


You can.


If the boiler has a way of accepting such input.


This one does not.


Its completely integrated and comoputerised, and the only thing apart
from the mains that it takes, is a 'smart' room stat made by the
manufacturer ONLY.


It would then be a matter of finding out what the actual switching signal
consists of. I suppose it might be some form of digital multiplex - how
many wires go to this controller?

But no matter how oddball it would be *possible* to intercept this control
data and alter it.

Sure. Knock up a pic and some mains relays


  #36   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,046
Default My Final post about central heating.


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Baker wrote:
The electrickery bits of central heating are absolutely not my thing but
I can't see why, with any boiler, you can't have an external controller
driving the zone valves and stats which produces a single output to the
boiler telling it when to switch on.


You can.

If the boiler has a way of accepting such input.

This one does not.

Its completely integrated and comoputerised, and the only thing apart from
the mains that it takes, is a 'smart' room stat made by the manufacturer
ONLY.


If the "room stat" is actually a temperature sensor using a resistance to
detect the temp (the usual method), opening the circuit will usually send
the thing one way or another. I have done this many times in designs on
commercial setups. The boiler fully on or fully off. So inserting a relay
in the line will switch on or off the boiler. Then this circuit can go
though the end switches of the zone valves. When the zone valves are open
the whole circuit is engaged and the temperature control is working well.
When closed the boiler is off or on. I would guess than when this temp
sensor is linked out (no resistance) the boiler will be full on.

It is worth full linking the stat circuit and opening and observe what the
boiler does. Then close and see what happens. I would be leaning to that
the circuit is just a low voltage resistance temperature setup and what I
describe will easily work.

If so, depending on the zone valve a relay have to be incorporated in the
design. Best have a SPDT end switch on the zone valve, if possible.

Its highly UN-obvious. Thats someone has finally produced the plumbers
dream and the DIY-ers nightmare. A boiler that doesn't need any electrical
installation, beyond hooking up to a switched fused spur and turning it
'on'..


That is the aim of many makers - fit and forget, no need to design as the
experts do it for you. Also getting around Part P using a wireless stat.

  #37   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default My Final post about central heating.


On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:09:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.


What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.


Except the boiler uses the same basic layout and controller board as
many other WB models that can use the TR2 as an *option*, these other
boilers can use zone valves or mid position valves.

In the R30 HE Plus manual

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ind...ewFile&id=9917

Page 8 1.8 Electrical wiring diagram

The terminals

L
N
Ns
Ls
LR

are identical to those on many other Worcester boilers.

For instance look up the Greenstar R28 HE, a system boiler that can be
used with a TR2, and can also optionally be fitted with an internal
(24v) diverter valve. When configured like this the R28 HE is,with
the exception of the hot water heat exchanger section, identical in
almost every respect to the R30 HE Plus.

R28 HE manual
http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ind...ewFile&id=9921

This online version has lost some detail available in earlier
revisions of this manual. I've scanned them here.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4153/img380hl1.jpg

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9671/img379mw5.jpg


Note that in Fig 31 the Ls-Lr link is shown still in situ - this is
incorrect as it must be removed!

Unplug the TR2 from the main pcb (as it's used for settings and
diagnostics access in the R30 this might not be a long term option)
remove the Ls - Lr link and wire as per these schematics and the
boiler will interface to a whole bunch of standard control plans.


--
  #38   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,046
Default My Final post about central heating.


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-11 00:54:55 +0100, John Rumm
said:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.


There must be something that the TR2 can indicate that tells the boiler
it is getting a bit nippy in the room though, causing it to turn on. So
the next question is how to simulate that.


Easier solution.

Spend £45 on a TR2 and pull it apart.


Daft idea.

  #39   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,046
Default My Final post about central heating.


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.

What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.


There must be something that the TR2 can indicate that tells the boiler it
is getting a bit nippy in the room though, causing it to turn on. So the
next question is how to simulate that.


No need to just open or close a circuit. It "appears" that there is no link
on the TR2 connections at the boiler. This means on open circuit the boiler
is "on" permanently. Connect it and a resistance appears and the controller
acts accordingly to turn on or off, or modulate the burner (haven't looked
at this boiler in detail so it may or may not modulate the burner via room
temp). So closed circuit means boiler off. Opening and closing this
circuit to have the boiler on or off will work. When open the frost aspect
will be disabled, but an external frost stat can be fitted if need be. When
on, burner modulation is activated if a part of the control system as the
circuit and the TR2 is in circuit.


  #40   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,045
Default My Final post about central heating.

Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:09:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Matt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:00:05 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

My Worcester Bosch boiler cannot be activated by external zone
controls. So says the techie's at WB themselves. I've spent hours
and hours and a couple of hundred pounds doing the zone thing. I tried
to sort the controls today and couldn't figure out how to connect them
to the boiler. So I called WB tech support and my boiler (which is
only 2 years old FFS!" cannot take it. No way. "Can't I bodge a
control in somewhere?" Nope. The text display controls it all. There
is no single 'lightitupnow' connection in there.
What crap. WB Tech support are wrong.

What model boiler is it?


According to what I found, they are sadly correct.


Except the boiler uses the same basic layout and controller board as
many other WB models that can use the TR2 as an *option*, these other
boilers can use zone valves or mid position valves.

In the R30 HE Plus manual

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ind...ewFile&id=9917

Page 8 1.8 Electrical wiring diagram

The terminals

L
N
Ns
Ls
LR

are identical to those on many other Worcester boilers.

For instance look up the Greenstar R28 HE, a system boiler that can be
used with a TR2, and can also optionally be fitted with an internal
(24v) diverter valve. When configured like this the R28 HE is,with
the exception of the hot water heat exchanger section, identical in
almost every respect to the R30 HE Plus.

R28 HE manual
http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ind...ewFile&id=9921

This online version has lost some detail available in earlier
revisions of this manual. I've scanned them here.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4153/img380hl1.jpg

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9671/img379mw5.jpg


Note that in Fig 31 the Ls-Lr link is shown still in situ - this is
incorrect as it must be removed!

Unplug the TR2 from the main pcb (as it's used for settings and
diagnostics access in the R30 this might not be a long term option)
remove the Ls - Lr link and wire as per these schematics and the
boiler will interface to a whole bunch of standard control plans.



Aha ..looks promising.
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alternatives to gas for central heating and domestic water heating? Jimmy UK diy 55 January 16th 05 01:49 PM
Central heating with no heating controls Hugo Nebula UK diy 7 October 18th 04 11:17 AM
Central Heating Question - Heating Loop Murdo MacKenzie UK diy 2 May 17th 04 03:42 PM
Buzzing Central Heating = no heating Zordiac UK diy 4 September 29th 03 01:16 PM
Further to my last post entitled 'Flushing and treating central heating question' David W.E. Roberts UK diy 0 July 29th 03 08:15 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:36 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"