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Default Quality Toilet Cisterns

Hi all

Now looking at replacing rather than re-using old cistern for new Laufen
back to wall pan.
Need quality options for concealed shallow cistern to be boxed in.
Andy Hall has suggested Grohe.
Discovered Geberit on my travels this weekend.
Anyone else got recommendations please.
Ideally looking for dual flush remote push button operation.

TIA

Phil


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Default Quality Toilet Cisterns

TheScullster wrote

Now looking at replacing rather than re-using old cistern for new Laufen
back to wall pan.
Need quality options for concealed shallow cistern to be boxed in.
Andy Hall has suggested Grohe.
Discovered Geberit on my travels this weekend.
Anyone else got recommendations please.
Ideally looking for dual flush remote push button operation.


My own experience with Grohe is not the best. How it compares with
other brands, I can't tell, because this is the only dual-flush that
I've had.

In the few months that I've had it, (a) it's 'locked'[1] twice and (b)
the 2-part push button thingy now has one of the parts protruding very
slightly more than the other.

Plus, the design of the flush buttons is counter-intuitive. With my
Grohe, there's a small button and a big button. The small button does a
big flush and the big button does a small flush.

Yes, you read that right!

Other Grohes in shops have been the same, but other makes are what I
would call the 'right' way round.

I wouldn't buy another one.

Footnote
--------
1. By 'locked' I mean that after a flush, it has just kept on slowly
flushing and slowly filling at the same time. I've had to remove the
panel and joggle the float mechanism to get it to stop.

--
-blj-
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Default Quality Toilet Cisterns

TheScullster wrote:

Now looking at replacing rather than re-using old cistern for new Laufen
back to wall pan.
Need quality options for concealed shallow cistern to be boxed in.
Andy Hall has suggested Grohe.
Discovered Geberit on my travels this weekend.
Anyone else got recommendations please.
Ideally looking for dual flush remote push button operation.


How about
http://www.elseware.to/products/aq.htm
:-)
David
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On 2007-04-10 17:14:39 +0100, Brian L Johnson said:

TheScullster wrote

Now looking at replacing rather than re-using old cistern for new Laufen
back to wall pan.
Need quality options for concealed shallow cistern to be boxed in.
Andy Hall has suggested Grohe.
Discovered Geberit on my travels this weekend.
Anyone else got recommendations please.
Ideally looking for dual flush remote push button operation.


My own experience with Grohe is not the best. How it compares with
other brands, I can't tell, because this is the only dual-flush that
I've had.

In the few months that I've had it, (a) it's 'locked'[1] twice and (b)
the 2-part push button thingy now has one of the parts protruding very
slightly more than the other.

Plus, the design of the flush buttons is counter-intuitive. With my
Grohe, there's a small button and a big button. The small button does a
big flush and the big button does a small flush.

Yes, you read that right!


I haven't had the problems of lock up, although I agree that the button
is counter-intuitive.

On one set of logic, one might expect a large button for a large flush
and a small one for a small flush.

One might even expect them to be labeled with the numbers '1' and '2'
to represent the normal "granny's doughnut in the greenhouse" UK
euphemism.

However, the product is Teutonic and the logic transcends British
sensibilities about sanitary installations. Remember that we don't
have inspection shelves in our ceramic products.

I called Grohe about this and to paraphrase, the response was as follows:

- The purpose of dual flush is to save water.

- For most purposes, a small flush is adequate. (Here they are
assuming that the quantity of UK number 1 exceeds quantity of UK number
2 bodily functions)

- Therefore, ergonomics and they objective dictates that the use should
be guided to use the flush option that will be used more often and
which will achieve the eco-objective.




Other Grohes in shops have been the same, but other makes are what I
would call the 'right' way round.

I wouldn't buy another one.

Footnote
--------
1. By 'locked' I mean that after a flush, it has just kept on slowly
flushing and slowly filling at the same time. I've had to remove the
panel and joggle the float mechanism to get it to stop.


Did you check for plastic flash on the flush mechanism mouldings?



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On 2007-04-10 16:38:10 +0100, "TheScullster" said:

Hi all

Now looking at replacing rather than re-using old cistern for new Laufen
back to wall pan.
Need quality options for concealed shallow cistern to be boxed in.
Andy Hall has suggested Grohe.
Discovered Geberit on my travels this weekend.
Anyone else got recommendations please.
Ideally looking for dual flush remote push button operation.

TIA

Phil


Geberit is also a good manufacturer.


During my numerous regular safaris into mainland Europe, hotels (even
the less expensive ones) almost universally fit brassware and non
ceramic sanitary equipment (i.e. cisterns etc) from Grohe, Hansgrohe
and Geberit.

For enclosed cisterns I don't think I have seen anything other than
Geberit and Grohe.

These manufacturers have a wide range of products. Normally there are
one or two very low end items designed to reach a price point. They
are careful not to prostitute their brand. There are then quite a
number of solidly engineered but design ordinary products - most
hotels buy these.
Then there are the designed products that cost quite a bit more. Some
hotels buy these if they are trying to create themed bathrooms.

I bought Grohe for reasons of supply. I was buying a complete set of
stuff for a cloakroom project and negotiating a project price. More
suppliers seemed to have Grohe. Geberit seems to be equally good.

I've never run into flush problems with either brand. To give you an
idea - I spend approximately 120 nights a year in hotels, and I suppose
80% have one of these. This isn't a rigorous analysis but I would
think that this is a sample of about 100 cisterns a year.



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"TheScullster" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all

Now looking at replacing rather than re-using old cistern for new Laufen
back to wall pan.
Need quality options for concealed shallow cistern to be boxed in.
Andy Hall has suggested Grohe.


andy Hall knows everything so you'd better go with his suggestion. Anybody
else will be wrong.

Mary


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On 2007-04-10 19:54:12 +0100, "Mary Fisher" said:


"TheScullster" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all

Now looking at replacing rather than re-using old cistern for new Laufen
back to wall pan.
Need quality options for concealed shallow cistern to be boxed in.
Andy Hall has suggested Grohe.


andy Hall knows everything so you'd better go with his suggestion. Anybody
else will be wrong.

Mary


Sigh.....



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"Mary Fisher" wrote


andy Hall knows everything

That I find hard to believe.
However, he has in the past (and in this case) offered informed and
considered opinion based on personal experience.
This input has been of considerable assistance and I, for one, am grateful
for his contribution particularly to my questions but also to the group as a
whole.

Phil


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"Andy Hall" wrote

For enclosed cisterns I don't think I have seen anything other than
Geberit and Grohe.

Andy

I've looked at the literature for a number of cisterns, but the diagrams are
not too clear.
Do you know whether they all take the same dia flush pipe?

How do you find time to DIY if you spend that much time travelling?

Thanks

Phil


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Default Quality Toilet Cisterns

Andy Hall wrote

I haven't had the problems of lock up, although I agree that the button
is counter-intuitive.

On one set of logic, one might expect a large button for a large flush
and a small one for a small flush.

One might even expect them to be labeled with the numbers '1' and '2'
to represent the normal "granny's doughnut in the greenhouse" UK
euphemism.


In some that I've seen, they have non-language versions such as
~ and ~~ on equal-sized button, but the visual paradigm is the same:
if ~ is a certain size of flush then ~~ must be twice as much.

However, the product is Teutonic and the logic transcends British
sensibilities about sanitary installations. Remember that we don't
have inspection shelves in our ceramic products.


True. g

I called Grohe about this and to paraphrase, the response was as follows:

- The purpose of dual flush is to save water.

- For most purposes, a small flush is adequate. (Here they are
assuming that the quantity of UK number 1 exceeds quantity of UK number
2 bodily functions)

- Therefore, ergonomics and they objective dictates that the use should
be guided to use the flush option that will be used more often and
which will achieve the eco-objective.


They're using the paradigm: bigger button = most frequently used. I can
see that. Just. g

[quoted text muted]
1. By 'locked' I mean that after a flush, it has just kept on slowly
flushing and slowly filling at the same time. I've had to remove the
panel and joggle the float mechanism to get it to stop.


Did you check for plastic flash on the flush mechanism mouldings?


Yes, I've dismantled it (well, as far as one can) and the mechanism
seems fine. It's a very delicate piece of equipment, though. Lots of
finely engineered levers and hinges points. Or, to put it another way,
lots of places where a tiny amount of detritus could cause a problem.
It looks nowhere near as robust as a 'standard' flush mechanism and I
certainly don't expect it to last as long as any of my previous toilets.

In fact, do you remember the pictures I originally posted about this
button? URL= http://www.thejohnsons.co.uk/GroheButtons.jpg

Well, here's another photo taken today. Have a look at what's slowly
happening. URL= http://www.thejohnsons.co.uk/GroheButtons2.jpg

The upper, smaller button is now sticking out slightly more and the
lower, larger one is sinking in slightly more. The smaller button is
also acquiring groove marks along the top edge where it slides against
the locating ribs on the inside of the surrounding ring.

That's not good design and it doesn't fill me with confidence about the
longevity of the rest of the mechanism.

--
-blj-


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On 2007-04-11 11:01:35 +0100, Brian L Johnson said:

Andy Hall wrote

I haven't had the problems of lock up, although I agree that the button
is counter-intuitive.

On one set of logic, one might expect a large button for a large flush
and a small one for a small flush.

One might even expect them to be labeled with the numbers '1' and '2'
to represent the normal "granny's doughnut in the greenhouse" UK
euphemism.


In some that I've seen, they have non-language versions such as
~ and ~~ on equal-sized button, but the visual paradigm is the same:
if ~ is a certain size of flush then ~~ must be twice as much.

However, the product is Teutonic and the logic transcends British
sensibilities about sanitary installations. Remember that we don't
have inspection shelves in our ceramic products.


True. g

I called Grohe about this and to paraphrase, the response was as follows:

- The purpose of dual flush is to save water.

- For most purposes, a small flush is adequate. (Here they are
assuming that the quantity of UK number 1 exceeds quantity of UK number
2 bodily functions)

- Therefore, ergonomics and they objective dictates that the use should
be guided to use the flush option that will be used more often and
which will achieve the eco-objective.


They're using the paradigm: bigger button = most frequently used. I can
see that. Just. g


German logic. The objective comes first.

With Italian design, the aesthetics come first.





[quoted text muted]
1. By 'locked' I mean that after a flush, it has just kept on slowly
flushing and slowly filling at the same time. I've had to remove the
panel and joggle the float mechanism to get it to stop.


Did you check for plastic flash on the flush mechanism mouldings?


Yes, I've dismantled it (well, as far as one can) and the mechanism
seems fine. It's a very delicate piece of equipment, though. Lots of
finely engineered levers and hinges points.


I am sure that that is so that a relatively small button arrangement on
thin hoses can operate the mechanism.


Or, to put it another way,
lots of places where a tiny amount of detritus could cause a problem.
It looks nowhere near as robust as a 'standard' flush mechanism and I
certainly don't expect it to last as long as any of my previous toilets.


I see your point, although clearly a small pneumatic mechanism wouldn't
be able to operate one of the chunky siphons.



In fact, do you remember the pictures I originally posted about this
button? URL= http://www.thejohnsons.co.uk/GroheButtons.jpg


Yes I do.



Well, here's another photo taken today. Have a look at what's slowly
happening. URL= http://www.thejohnsons.co.uk/GroheButtons2.jpg

The upper, smaller button is now sticking out slightly more and the
lower, larger one is sinking in slightly more. The smaller button is
also acquiring groove marks along the top edge where it slides against
the locating ribs on the inside of the surrounding ring.

That's not good design and it doesn't fill me with confidence about the
longevity of the rest of the mechanism.


I think that it's two things though.

I agree with you that the button mechanism could do with being more
solid, but it is functionally separate to the flush valve.


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On 2007-04-11 08:43:16 +0100, "TheScullster" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote

For enclosed cisterns I don't think I have seen anything other than
Geberit and Grohe.

Andy

I've looked at the literature for a number of cisterns, but the diagrams are
not too clear.


They can be challenging.


Do you know whether they all take the same dia flush pipe?



They may vary, but it shouldn't matter because the flush pipe and
flexible adaptor for the pan are normally supplied with the cistern.

The Grohe one does appear to be a bit larger than those with the more
typical UK manufactured cisterns. This may be part of the reason for
the apparently greater oomph of flush. Also the adaptor for the soil
pipe, which comes with the frame is slightly smaller - 90mm rather than
100. Whether that makes a difference I am not sure.



How do you find time to DIY if you spend that much time travelling?


Ah...

One thing is to do as much preparation of a project as possible ahead
of time. This includes any design bits like drawings and plans and
especially procurement of materials. It's very easy to waste most of
a Saturday morning visiting builders merchants and the rest of the day
going to and from B&Q.

I can work out what is needed as a shopping list way ahead of time
and procure for it. It's just as easy to do an order to Screwfix or
whoever when sitting in an airport lounge in Bucharest as it is at
home. Along these lines, I try to choose hotels with good internet
connections - I need this for work use anyway.

I look for ideas in different places that I go.

I organise materials into project bundles for the duration of the
project. Left over items are put into the next applicable one.

I normally run 2-3 projects at a time. Then if I get stuck on one
through lack of materials or perhaps waiting for something to dry or
even being dogged off , I can move on to the next.


Disposal can be a large time waster as well. If I go to the tip on a
Saturday afternoon it can take 25 mins each way to drive plus 30mins or
more waiting while people tit around sorting their rubbish into
different containers at a very disorganised facility. If I go on
Tuesday morning at 0800 when it opens, there is seldom anyone there -
straight in, dump the rubbish and gone - total time 45 mins max.

If you add these pieces up they can easily come to half of the
available DIY time. A bit of organisation and a lot can be achieved.



Thanks

Phil



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