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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

HI All

The Studio saga continues......
After much thought, and with grateful thanks to all those who offered
suggestions, we finally decided to go with the electric under-sink
water heater.

This one is by Ariston, and stores 10 litres of hot water,
thermostatically controlled.....

The installation manual's in 12 languages (!) - but I'm stuggling to
understand the English info.... g

It seems to suggest that there are two ways to install the pipework to
the thing.... being 'open outlet' and (I assume) conventional tap
outlet.

I have taps for the new sink - so I was hoping to do the tap outlet
thing....

The heater has a red outlet connector and a blue inlet connector.
The instructions and diagram for this shows the following connections
on the cold inlet side of things....

From the mains water to the heater....
Pressure relief valve (8 bar - supplied).....
........Drain cock
........and then into the cold inlet of the heater.

Nothing is shown on the outlet side - but I'm guessing that it's
simply pipework to the hot tap ?

This is the first time I've installed one of these units - and I'd
like to get it right (very much aware of the expolsive power of steam
in the event of a failure !) - so am I right in that the pressure
relief valve goes on the inlet connection, rather than (as you might
expect) on the outlet side ....?

Maybe the idea is that, in the event of over-pressure, the first thing
that comes out is cold water... before the steam.... ? Dunno ??

There are also diagrams for an 'open' system - but that uses 'valves'
rather than 'taps', and I don't particularly want to go that route....

Any comments / suggestions please ??

Thanks
Adrian
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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

HI all

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:37:50 +0000, Adrian
wrote:

HI All

The Studio saga continues......
After much thought, and with grateful thanks to all those who offered
suggestions, we finally decided to go with the electric under-sink
water heater.

This one is by Ariston, and stores 10 litres of hot water,
thermostatically controlled.....

The installation manual's in 12 languages (!) - but I'm stuggling to
understand the English info.... g

It seems to suggest that there are two ways to install the pipework to
the thing.... being 'open outlet' and (I assume) conventional tap
outlet.

I have taps for the new sink - so I was hoping to do the tap outlet
thing....

The heater has a red outlet connector and a blue inlet connector.
The instructions and diagram for this shows the following connections
on the cold inlet side of things....

From the mains water to the heater....
Pressure relief valve (8 bar - supplied).....
.......Drain cock
.......and then into the cold inlet of the heater.

Nothing is shown on the outlet side - but I'm guessing that it's
simply pipework to the hot tap ?

This is the first time I've installed one of these units - and I'd
like to get it right (very much aware of the expolsive power of steam
in the event of a failure !) - so am I right in that the pressure
relief valve goes on the inlet connection, rather than (as you might
expect) on the outlet side ....?

Maybe the idea is that, in the event of over-pressure, the first thing
that comes out is cold water... before the steam.... ? Dunno ??

There are also diagrams for an 'open' system - but that uses 'valves'
rather than 'taps', and I don't particularly want to go that route....

Any comments / suggestions please ??


C'mon - somebody must have installed one of these things !

Regards
Adrian
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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
HI all

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:37:50 +0000, Adrian
wrote:

HI All

The Studio saga continues......snipped


Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.
They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.
Donwill



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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

Hi Donwill

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:13 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
.. .
HI all

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:37:50 +0000, Adrian
wrote:

HI All

The Studio saga continues......snipped


Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.


Thanks for the warning....

They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.


OK - understand that.
The bit I didn't understand was that the information supplied with the
heater seems to offer the option of either an open vent OR a
conventional 'tap on the hot water outlet' install.

In fact, the section of ths installation instructions that don't refer
to the 'open outlet' connection say
'The safety valve has a calibration value of about 8 bar.
A slight drip during the heating phase is quite normal,.....'

Which sounds to me as if, in this mode, there is a tap on the hot
outlet of the heater, and the increased pressure caused by the
heating of the water is vented through the safety valve....

All I was looking for was confirmation that this plan is correct ....

I've now emailed the manufacturer just to confirm that I've understood
their manual correctly...

Many thanks
Adrian
Donwill


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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:13 -0000 Donwill wrote :
Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.
They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.


I will agree about the potential for danger but in many cases you no longer
need an open vented tap. The requirement is either for an expansion vessel or
for a suitable length of pipe between the heater and incoming main. You also
need a safety valve.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk



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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

HI Tony

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:29:55 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:13 -0000 Donwill wrote :
Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.
They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.


I will agree about the potential for danger but in many cases you no longer
need an open vented tap. The requirement is either for an expansion vessel or
for a suitable length of pipe between the heater and incoming main. You also
need a safety valve.


OK - thanks....

The heater came with a little safety valve.
The instructions require that a 'T' untion be fitted to the cold
inlet. One end of the 'T' goes to a drain valve, other end goes to the
safety valve, and then on to the incoming water mains 'via a flexible
pipe'.

In my case, the water 'main' is fed from a private deep-bore well,
with a pressurised expansion vessel - situated about 12 feet away as
the pipe runs.

Wonder if this sounds suitable ?
The installation is in a timber Studio - I was planning on installing
the safety valve outside the building (freezing isn't going to be an
issue - we're in South-West Ireland) - the valve can then 'leak' to
outside, if it needs to.

The current pipework to the well is 3/4" black Alkathene, so I was
going to tee from that into the water heater, also fit an additional
tee before or after the safety-valve to feed the cold tap on the sink.

I've a fair bit of (amateur !) experience in plumbing & wiring - but
this is the first time I've come across one of these devices - and I'd
like to get it right g

Regards
Adrian
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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

In message , Tony Bryer
writes
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:13 -0000 Donwill wrote :
Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.
They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.


I will agree about the potential for danger but in many cases you no longer
need an open vented tap. The requirement is either for an expansion vessel or
for a suitable length of pipe between the heater and incoming main. You also
need a safety valve.


I have something similar but not Ariston. I suspect these are imports
from a country with rather different rules on plumbing installation.

I fed the output from the over-pressure relief valve to the *washing
m/c* input on the sink waste trap. Overflow outlets are meant to be
visible to avoid waste!

The other issue is that of expansion. My instructions, translated from
whatever, required a minimum length of connecting pipe on the input
side.

The third issue, which I probably should not mention:-) is the
requirement to connect to the cold feed. The whole purpose in my
installation was to overcome a problem with overlong piping from the hot
water cistern. This is a hard water area and it seemed really stupid to
not use pre-heated softened water.

regards


--
Tim Lamb
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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

HI Tim

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:03:15 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Tony Bryer
writes
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:13 -0000 Donwill wrote :
Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.
They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.


I will agree about the potential for danger but in many cases you no longer
need an open vented tap. The requirement is either for an expansion vessel or
for a suitable length of pipe between the heater and incoming main. You also
need a safety valve.


Thanks for the comments


I have something similar but not Ariston. I suspect these are imports
from a country with rather different rules on plumbing installation.


Do you mean that the Ariston is from a country with different plumbing
regs ?


I fed the output from the over-pressure relief valve to the *washing
m/c* input on the sink waste trap. Overflow outlets are meant to be
visible to avoid waste!


That was my thought in putting the overflow 'outside'....


The other issue is that of expansion. My instructions, translated from
whatever, required a minimum length of connecting pipe on the input
side.


Hmmm - no mention of that requirement in my instructions...


The third issue, which I probably should not mention:-) is the
requirement to connect to the cold feed. The whole purpose in my
installation was to overcome a problem with overlong piping from the hot
water cistern. This is a hard water area and it seemed really stupid to
not use pre-heated softened water.


Not an issue here.
Water's soft 'out of the ground' - but pretty darn acidic before it's
been though our dosing plant..... after that it's a fairly constant
pH7.....

Thanks
Adrian
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In message , Adrian
writes

I have something similar but not Ariston. I suspect these are imports
from a country with rather different rules on plumbing installation.


Do you mean that the Ariston is from a country with different plumbing
regs ?


Mine came from Screwfix!

IME anything with more than one language on the instructions is likely
to be an import.

I spoke to one UK manufacturer (forgotten who now) in an attempt to
establish why it was necessary for the feed to be from the cold supply
and failed to get a clear explanation. The obvious issue is the risk of
a local *shut off* valve leading to over pressure. ISTM a thermostat
failure is more likely, where putting hot water/steam back into the
mains supply system ought to be less attractive than into a vented hot
water cistern. Oh well! None of this is relevant to your borehole set
up.

regards

--
Tim Lamb
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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
Hi Donwill

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:13 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
. ..
HI all

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:37:50 +0000, Adrian
wrote:

HI All

The Studio saga continues......snipped


Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If
you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.


Thanks for the warning....

They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.


OK - understand that.
The bit I didn't understand was that the information supplied with the
heater seems to offer the option of either an open vent OR a
conventional 'tap on the hot water outlet' install.

In fact, the section of ths installation instructions that don't refer
to the 'open outlet' connection say
'The safety valve has a calibration value of about 8 bar.
A slight drip during the heating phase is quite normal,.....'

Which sounds to me as if, in this mode, there is a tap on the hot
outlet of the heater, and the increased pressure caused by the
heating of the water is vented through the safety valve....

All I was looking for was confirmation that this plan is correct ....

I've now emailed the manufacturer just to confirm that I've understood
their manual correctly...

Many thanks
Adrian


It makes no mention in the instructions of the one I recently installed (
Zip Tudor 2) of an alternative to the permanently open outlet installation.
In fact it expressly forbids using any other type of installation, I quote
"UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THE SPOUT OR OUTLET BE CONNECTED TO A TAP
WHICH IS CAPABLE OF BEING CLOSED"( their capital letters)
Maybe the Zip is not constructed to withstand mains pressure?

My experience is limited to the Zip only, so cannot help further.
Good luck &
Best regards
Mot




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HI Mot

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:02:46 +0100, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Donwill

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:13 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
HI all

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:37:50 +0000, Adrian
wrote:

HI All

The Studio saga continues......snipped

Polite suggestion---- These things can be DANGEROUS and can EXPLODE, If
you
don't know how to proceed, then DON'T, get someone in who is familiar with
the installation of electric under-sink heaters.


Thanks for the warning....

They are meant to be installed with an open vent tap which are very
expensive, the water expands when heated and drips out of the open vent
tap, the outlet is always open and the tap controls the inlet side of the
heater, I recently purchased a tap for my heater which cost me approx £90.


OK - understand that.
The bit I didn't understand was that the information supplied with the
heater seems to offer the option of either an open vent OR a
conventional 'tap on the hot water outlet' install.

In fact, the section of ths installation instructions that don't refer
to the 'open outlet' connection say
'The safety valve has a calibration value of about 8 bar.
A slight drip during the heating phase is quite normal,.....'

Which sounds to me as if, in this mode, there is a tap on the hot
outlet of the heater, and the increased pressure caused by the
heating of the water is vented through the safety valve....

All I was looking for was confirmation that this plan is correct ....

I've now emailed the manufacturer just to confirm that I've understood
their manual correctly...

Many thanks
Adrian


It makes no mention in the instructions of the one I recently installed (
Zip Tudor 2) of an alternative to the permanently open outlet installation.
In fact it expressly forbids using any other type of installation, I quote
"UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THE SPOUT OR OUTLET BE CONNECTED TO A TAP
WHICH IS CAPABLE OF BEING CLOSED"( their capital letters)
Maybe the Zip is not constructed to withstand mains pressure?

My experience is limited to the Zip only, so cannot help further.
Good luck &
Best regards
Mot


Thanks....

Adrian

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HI Tim

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:55:48 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Adrian
writes

I have something similar but not Ariston. I suspect these are imports
from a country with rather different rules on plumbing installation.


Do you mean that the Ariston is from a country with different plumbing
regs ?


Mine came from Screwfix!


g



IME anything with more than one language on the instructions is likely
to be an import.


Certainly - looks as if the 'native' langauge for this piece of kit is
Italian...


I spoke to one UK manufacturer (forgotten who now) in an attempt to
establish why it was necessary for the feed to be from the cold supply
and failed to get a clear explanation. The obvious issue is the risk of
a local *shut off* valve leading to over pressure. ISTM a thermostat
failure is more likely, where putting hot water/steam back into the
mains supply system ought to be less attractive than into a vented hot
water cistern. Oh well! None of this is relevant to your borehole set
up.


True !
The only reservation I have is that my deep borehole feeds a pressure
tank to provide the initial water feed before the pump cuts in. Quite
how this pressure vessel would feel about having 8 bar pushed back up
its outlet (!) I do not know.....

....but then, I'm not sure how a conventional mains supply would react
either. I guess in either case the condition only applies until the
pressure release valve blows - which, if the tank's decided to boil
due to a stuck 'stat, will not be for very long....

Complicated, innit ?? g

Still waiting to see what Ariston's Irish tech support people have to
say (probably along the lines of 'Shure - you don't want to be
worryin' about that now.....' g

Regards
Adrian


regards

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In message , Adrian
writes
Quite how this pressure vessel would feel about having 8 bar pushed
back up its outlet (!) I do not know.....

...but then, I'm not sure how a conventional mains supply would react
either.


My guess is that it would make your neighbours toilets toot like steam
whistles and turn their ablutions into brown vapour.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com
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Default Re Ariston under-sink water heater install

HI Clive

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:52:07 GMT, Clive Mitchell
wrote:

In message , Adrian
writes
Quite how this pressure vessel would feel about having 8 bar pushed
back up its outlet (!) I do not know.....

...but then, I'm not sure how a conventional mains supply would react
either.


My guess is that it would make your neighbours toilets toot like steam
whistles and turn their ablutions into brown vapour.


Now there's a picture to conjure with !
How to win friends & influence people g

Adrian
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