[Tim Lamb]

Potterton Suprima 30-80

Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is
overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of an
elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out
are unknown.

Before calling in a service engineer I would like to be better informed;
hopefully to avoid a series of call-outs.

Is there anything I should be particularly looking at?

System pressure looks OK, by-pass is open, the slide switch on the
controller has lost the *detents* and I don't know what geriatric
fingers have been doing in between failures.

Pressing reset invariably gets the boiler going for a few more days.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

[Mark]

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
Potterton Suprima 30-80

Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is
overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of an
elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out
are unknown.

Before calling in a service engineer I would like to be better informed;
hopefully to avoid a series of call-outs.

Is there anything I should be particularly looking at?


Don't you watch TV

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and...20070220.shtml





--

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Mark
writes

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
Potterton Suprima 30-80
Is there anything I should be particularly looking at?


Don't you watch TV

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and...s/homes/homes_
20070220.shtml

Obviously not the *right* programmes:-)

I saw some of the discussion in here but did not realise the relevance.

Ta.

Curiously, we have two identical boilers installed at the same time in
the same block of flats. Clutching wooden desktop, only one has given
trouble!

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[raden]

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
Potterton Suprima 30-80

Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is
overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of
an elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the
lock-out are unknown.

Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful
information, difficult to say any more

--
geoff

[Tim Lamb]

In message , raden
writes
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
Potterton Suprima 30-80

Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is
overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of
elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the
lock-out are unknown.

Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful
information, difficult to say any more

Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or something
too obscure to spot.

I have copied off the draft letter to Potterton and will try sending it
once I have determined the installation date.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

[raden]

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , raden
writes
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
Potterton Suprima 30-80

Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is
overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of
elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the
lock-out are unknown.

Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful
information, difficult to say any more

Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or something
too obscure to spot.

Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too

Oh that it was that simple

--
geoff

[Adrian C]

raden wrote:

Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too

Oh that it was that simple


If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack team
of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and setting out
building a replacement PCB. It might not need to be reverse engineered
from the originals, such would be the expertise of the engineers to
design something from the ground up that does something useful with the
rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to
whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as part of a safe
gas appliance.

Then think of the potential market.

--
Adrian C

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Adrian C
writes
raden wrote:

Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too
Oh that it was that simple


If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack
team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and
setting out building a replacement PCB. It might not need to be reverse
engineered from the originals, such would be the expertise of the
engineers to design something from the ground up that does something
useful with the rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be
submitted to whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as
part of a safe gas appliance.

If you intent to use *flow* soldering to save on production cost, you
might consider component thermal mass when mixing mains connectors with
delicate integrated chips on the same circuit board.

Then think of the potential market.

Yes:-)

regards
--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message , raden
writes

Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful
information, difficult to say any more

Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or
something too obscure to spot.

Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too

Oh that it was that simple

Umm.. I take it suitable exchange units are available ex-Watford?

regards


--
Tim Lamb

[andrew heggie]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 01:34:23 +0000, Adrian C wrote:

If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack team
of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and setting out
building a replacement PCB. It might not need to be reverse engineered
from the originals, such would be the expertise of the engineers to
design something from the ground up that does something useful with the
rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to
whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as part of a safe
gas appliance.

As I'm neither an enterprising soul nor a competent electronics design
techie I can only speculate. I deal with a number of woodburning devices
that are PIC controlled and they are off the shelf components with
firmware blown onto a rom. I have on two occasions needed to upgrade the
firmware, once to a boiler pic and once to an associated feed line.

The lower volume manufacturer of the feedline has used a mitsubishi alpha
controller and this looks like it could handle input functions from limit
switches sensing flue gas, O2, flame sensing and modulate fan speeds etc.
All easily reconfigured from the free gui programming software.

I had considerer trying to run a dishwasher with a sticky timer off one
but the cost benefit wasn't there.

AJH

[Ed Sirett]

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:06:51 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

Potterton Suprima 30-80

Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is
overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of an
elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out
are unknown.

Before calling in a service engineer I would like to be better informed;
hopefully to avoid a series of call-outs.

Is there anything I should be particularly looking at?

System pressure looks OK, by-pass is open, the slide switch on the
controller has lost the *detents* and I don't know what geriatric
fingers have been doing in between failures.

Pressing reset invariably gets the boiler going for a few more days.

regards

This is about the only boiler where you _start_ by assuming it's the PCB
and then move on to the other possibilities.

If there was a real cause like pump failure it would happen every day.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

[raden]

In message , Adrian C
writes
raden wrote:

Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too
Oh that it was that simple


If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack
team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and
setting out building a replacement PCB.

I thought about it, I was even in touch with the person who wrote the
original firmware. That's not the problem, the problem is Potterton -
the case is currently in court ATM against someone who has done just
that

It might not need to be reverse engineered from the originals, such
would be the expertise of the engineers to design something from the
ground up that does something useful with the rest of Potterton's
hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to whatever regulatory body
exists to certify it's use as part of a safe gas appliance.

It has to be approved by Potterton if it is to be put in one of their
appliances


Then think of the potential market.

It could seriously diminish post Watchdog,

we'll see

--
geoff

[raden]

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , raden
writes

Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful
information, difficult to say any more

Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or
something too obscure to spot.

Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too

Oh that it was that simple

Umm.. I take it suitable exchange units are available ex-Watford?

Normally, yes, but demand outstrips repair rate from time to time

--
geoff

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
raden writes:
In message , Adrian C
writes
If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack
team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and
setting out building a replacement PCB.

I thought about it, I was even in touch with the person who wrote the
original firmware. That's not the problem, the problem is Potterton -
the case is currently in court ATM against someone who has done just
that

Hum, on what grounds? I could imagine HSE having an issue with
it if it's not GC approved, but I can't see Potterton would have
a leg to stand on.

It might not need to be reverse engineered from the originals, such
would be the expertise of the engineers to design something from the
ground up that does something useful with the rest of Potterton's
hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to whatever regulatory body
exists to certify it's use as part of a safe gas appliance.

It has to be approved by Potterton if it is to be put in one of their
appliances

or the board manufacturer gets it GC approved themself. That might
be hard without Potterton's cooperation though.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[raden]

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes

It has to be approved by Potterton if it is to be put in one of their
appliances

or the board manufacturer gets it GC approved themself. That might
be hard without Potterton's cooperation though.

Well yes

Especially when there's a microcontroller with a program in

so there are secondary functions (such as kicking the pump every day (as
an anti seizing measure), rate tables etc)

It's not difficult for Potterton to argue that the pcb is not compliant
with their boiler, even if it performs the primary functions


--
geoff

[John Rumm]

raden wrote:

It's not difficult for Potterton to argue that the pcb is not compliant
with their boiler, even if it performs the primary functions

Although each time they make that argument they will presumably have to
give away another secondary function. ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Mark]

Tim Lamb wrote in message
...
In message , Mark
writes

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
Potterton Suprima 30-80
Is there anything I should be particularly looking at?


Don't you watch TV

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and...s/homes/homes_
20070220.shtml

Obviously not the *right* programmes:-)

I saw some of the discussion in here but did not realise the relevance.

Ta.

FWIW
If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all
the suspect dry joints cured the problem.

You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an
attempt to fix this problem
The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with
a completely new wiring harness,
*IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a
reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original
repaired/exchanged.


Curiously, we have two identical boilers installed at the same time in
the same block of flats. Clutching wooden desktop, only one has given
trouble!

missing "So far" in txt.



-

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Mark
writes
FWIW
If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all
the suspect dry joints cured the problem.

I cured a soldering fault on a Profile after some kind advice from
Geoff.

You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an
attempt to fix this problem
The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with
a completely new wiring harness,
*IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a
reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original
repaired/exchanged.

The boiler was installed roughly 5 years ago so I guess they won't rush
an offer:-(

I'll have a look inside when the weather warms up a bit.


Curiously, we have two identical boilers installed at the same time in
the same block of flats. Clutching wooden desktop, only one has given
trouble!

missing "So far" in txt.

Yes. Perhaps Potterton suffer from *Friday* production issues.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[raden]

In message , Mark
writes

FWIW
If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all
the suspect dry joints cured the problem.



Poor soldering's a major problem, however, doing it properly is
delicate and quite a lot of people make a mess of it.



You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an
attempt to fix this problem
The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with
a completely new wiring harness,
*IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a
reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original
repaired/exchanged.


On what do you base this ?

The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think,
I'm not sure)

The new (Honeywell) pcb has plenty of faults of it's own, and once you
have opted for this, there is no going back

One of my recon pcbs is £50 + and still has a 12 month warranty, and
backup


--
geoff

[raden]

In message , John
Rumm writes
raden wrote:

It's not difficult for Potterton to argue that the pcb is not
compliant with their boiler, even if it performs the primary functions

Although each time they make that argument they will presumably have to
give away another secondary function. ;-)

Presumably, eventually

It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they
will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which will
mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it might
have previously looked.

They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might have
finally broken this down


--
geoff

[John Rumm]

raden wrote:

It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they
will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which will
mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it might
have previously looked.

They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might have
finally broken this down

Unless someone could offer them a tried and tested re-engineered
solution that works. Would save them some of the R&D.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[raden]

In message , John
Rumm writes
raden wrote:

It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where
they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which
will mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it
might have previously looked.
They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might
have finally broken this down

Unless someone could offer them a tried and tested re-engineered
solution that works. Would save them some of the R&D.

Ah, but they already now have the Mk III PCB which is a completely
different pcb with half decent technology and makes Potterton a tidy
profit

.... still doesn't work that well though



--
geoff

[Mark]

raden wrote in message
...
In message , Mark
writes

FWIW
If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering
all
the suspect dry joints cured the problem.



Poor soldering's a major problem, however, doing it properly is
delicate and quite a lot of people make a mess of it.


Yes quite possibly,
but not an unsurprising statement from someone who makes 50% of their net
income from Suprima repairs.




You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in
an
attempt to fix this problem
The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come
with
a completely new wiring harness,
*IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at
a
reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original
repaired/exchanged.


On what do you base this ?

The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think,
I'm not sure)


your quote
"It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they
will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..."

Also this really boils down to whether the original lockout fault is down
to crap manufacturing or design
I cant (but you may) see much point in continually repairing a crap
design.



-

[Ed Sirett]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:14:42 +0000, raden wrote:

In message , John
Rumm writes
raden wrote:

It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where
they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which
will mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it
might have previously looked.
They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might
have finally broken this down

Unless someone could offer them a tried and tested re-engineered
solution that works. Would save them some of the R&D.

Ah, but they already now have the Mk III PCB which is a completely
different pcb with half decent technology and makes Potterton a tidy
profit

... still doesn't work that well though

The actually functionality of the old boards when they work (which for a
minority of people seems quite a while) is adequate (the boiler makes
primary HW and does not catch fire). The problem must therefore be that
the components are under specified or the manufacturing is lacking.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

[raden]

In message , Mark
writes

raden wrote in message
...
In message , Mark
writes

FWIW
If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering
all
the suspect dry joints cured the problem.



Poor soldering's a major problem, however, doing it properly is
delicate and quite a lot of people make a mess of it.


Yes quite possibly,
but not an unsurprising statement from someone who makes 50% of their net
income from Suprima repairs.




You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in
an
attempt to fix this problem
The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come
with
a completely new wiring harness,
*IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at
a
reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original
repaired/exchanged.


On what do you base this ?

The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think,
I'm not sure)


your quote
"It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they
will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..."

And it looks like that might be happening -

a bit different from the striking a deal though

it will be interesting to see just how far they do actually go.
--
geoff

[raden]

In message , AJH
writes
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:01:44 GMT, raden wrote:

"It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they
will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..."

And it looks like that might be happening -

a bit different from the striking a deal though

it will be interesting to see just how far they do actually go.

As I suffered the expense of a new board, before I realised you
offered the repair service, just over a year after my suprima was
fitted I was interested to find out what watchdog said this week but
missed it. Is it being taken further?

I see mine was fitted some when before 2004.

Yes - they were a bit cryptic about it, but

"watch this space", I think is the message


--
geoff

[Mark]

raden wrote in message
On what do you base this ?

The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think,
I'm not sure)


your quote
"It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they
will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..."

And it looks like that might be happening -

Watchdog tonight ? I didn't see it.

a bit different from the striking a deal though
it will be interesting to see just how far they do actually go.

Well that's the "IF" init...




-