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#1
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Pilot light gas usage
I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler
uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right? This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot light gas alone. |
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Pilot light gas usage
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#5
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Pilot light gas usage
On 6 Dec 2006 04:09:35 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:- I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, How did you work this out? -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#6
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Pilot light gas usage
wrote in message ups.com... I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right? This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot light gas alone. The pilot light heat is not wasted in my archaic convection glowworm boiler as it all goes toward heating the hot water tank. That may not be true in a fully pumped system, I'm not that expert. rusty |
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Pilot light gas usage
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#8
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Pilot light gas usage
The message
from Frank Lee Speke-King contains these words: Circuit Board, that you can't mend and costs a fortune to replace, Oh yes you can - and oh no it doesn't! Well, usually and not always. -- Skipweasel Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. |
#9
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Pilot light gas usage
Frank Lee Speke-King wrote:
wrote: I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right? Yep. Taking meter readings (mine's a cubic metres one and reads to the third decimal place) my ancient Glowworm boiler uses 0.44 cu.m per day just on the pilot light. That's nearly 5kWh per day, which suggest the pilot flame is producing 200W. I suppose it will be helping to keep the (enormous) heat exchanger warm for the next time you need hot water or heating. Some interesting stats at: http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/he...97/970103.html -- "Nothing succeeds like excess." |
#10
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Pilot light gas usage
In message , Guy King
writes The message from Frank Lee Speke-King contains these words: Circuit Board, that you can't mend and costs a fortune to replace, Oh yes you can - and oh no it doesn't! Well, usually and not always. More or less ... -- geoff |
#11
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Pilot light gas usage
On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 09:18:40 -0800, John Laird wrote:
Frank Lee Speke-King wrote: wrote: I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right? Yep. Taking meter readings (mine's a cubic metres one and reads to the third decimal place) my ancient Glowworm boiler uses 0.44 cu.m per day just on the pilot light. That's nearly 5kWh per day, which suggest the pilot flame is producing 200W. I suppose it will be helping to keep the (enormous) heat exchanger warm for the next time you need hot water or heating. Some interesting stats at: http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/he...97/970103.html I have done some of my own tests and calcs and would say that 50-200W give or take is plausible. This is 2 magnitudes smaller than when in operation, but is 24/7. Hence the several % effect on the overall annual energy usage. I don't agree (I wouldn't would I?) with those who _automatically_ state that a modern boiler is less reliable than a traditional type. A _quality_ modern boiler might also have a long life. Electronics are not unreliable per se. The materials used are potentially better than those used traditionally. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards |
#12
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Pilot light gas usage
In article . com,
wrote: I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right? This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot light gas alone. Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I suppose. -- *When blondes have more fun, do they know it? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#13
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Pilot light gas usage
On 2006-12-06 21:55:43 +0000, Ed Sirett said:
I don't agree (I wouldn't would I?) with those who _automatically_ state that a modern boiler is less reliable than a traditional type. Well.... no.... You could be doing the sharp intake of breath routine and saying something like "Mrs Jones....... it's yer pump" whereupon Mrs. Jones mouths in a hushed voice... "Will it be all right?" and you give a wry smile and nod, resulting in a very relieved looking Mrs Jones (who would be willing to pay anything to know this) and an apprentice who looks on in total wonderment at how BG can possibly get away with charging £150 per annum for this. A _quality_ modern boiler might also have a long life. Electronics are not unreliable per se. The materials used are potentially better than those used traditionally. |
#14
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Pilot light gas usage
Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I suppose. Hadn't thought of it like that, but there's only so much water inside a boiler. As soon as the pump starts and cold water is drawn in then surely this preheating effect is minimal? |
#15
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Pilot light gas usage
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com, wrote: I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right? This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot light gas alone. Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I suppose. Of course if a boiler can effectively use this heat to keep the water warm, you might also argue it is just as likely to be radiating it back up the flue, once the balance has been reached between heat gain and heat loss. At what water temperature this might occur, I wouldn't care to guess. At 60 pounds/year and assuming the old boiler is significantly less efficient anyway, an immediate investment in a new boiler could be easily justified. What surprises me is that a pilot light needs to be set at such a level that it is producing 200W of heat anyway. Most of us would think that leaving 200W of lighting on 24/7 would be wasteful in the extreme, even if electricity is 3 times as expensive as gas. [Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.] -- "Beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers." |
#16
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Pilot light gas usage
On Dec 7, 10:22 am, "John Laird" wrote: [Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it Almost certainly an efficient switch mode supply. anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.] Probably a cheap inneficient transformer and linear regulator. Anytime the heating is on, the heat from your wall warts isn't wasted. |
#17
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Pilot light gas usage
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#18
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Pilot light gas usage
[Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.] It probably also has a poor power factor as well as being left on 24/77. Someone said there's a move afoot to replace all consumer meters with new ones that charge by volt-amps rather than watts. They were coming to do mine this month. Its a double whammy since not only are gadgets like Sky and Freeview boxes left on 24/7 (going to standby doesn't make much difference) but they will charge consumption by the amps instead of real power. Could be nearly 10p per day per box. rusty |
#19
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Pilot light gas usage
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:52:54 -0000, "rusty" wrote:
| | | | [Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage | devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power | my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems | to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it | anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.] | |It probably also has a poor power factor as well as being left on 24/77. |Someone said there's a move afoot to replace all consumer meters with new |ones that charge by volt-amps rather than watts. They were coming to do |mine this month. |Its a double whammy since not only are gadgets like Sky and Freeview boxes |left on 24/7 (going to standby doesn't make much difference) but they will |charge consumption by the amps instead of real power. Could be nearly 10p |per day per box. Anyone selling mains power factor correction capacitors? They should work, but I would want to use a meter which measured power factor to check that they were not over correcting, which would cost money. -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst* method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies. |
#20
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Pilot light gas usage
Anyone selling mains power factor correction capacitors? They should work, but I would want to use a meter which measured power factor to check that they were not over correcting, which would cost money. -- The little 13A plug in power meter adaptors that Maplin sell and also Aldi, Lidl from time to time will read either volt-amps or watts and show power factor and accumulated cost. A old style Sky box has a power factor of about 0.6 and draws 15VA which is well OTT. rusty |
#21
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Pilot light gas usage
In article ,
Dave Fawthrop writes: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:52:54 -0000, "rusty" wrote: | | [Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage | devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power | my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems | to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it | anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.] "useful"? Probably not very, but "interesting", most definately. |It probably also has a poor power factor as well as being left on 24/77. |Someone said there's a move afoot to replace all consumer meters with new |ones that charge by volt-amps rather than watts. They were coming to do |mine this month. I don't think domestic customers are allowed to be charged that way. Only industrial customers. Anyone selling mains power factor correction capacitors? They should work, but I would want to use a meter which measured power factor to check that they were not over correcting, which would cost money. Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors. -- Andrew Gabriel |
#22
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Pilot light gas usage
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com, wrote: I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right? This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot light gas alone. Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I suppose. When I replaced a 20 year old Ideal Mexico with a Worcester Bosch condensing combi I was quite surprised to notice that I was spending 20p (7.5kWh) a day just keeping the pilot light going. This was measured over three summer months with heating off, electric hot water, and no gas used for cooking (I was rebuilding the kitchen so cooker). So yes 60UKP a year is probably correct. The old boiler was pretty basic and I suspect any heating effect from the pilot would be insignificant: much of the day and night the heating is off and the heat would be lost to the cold air in the flue. -- djc |
#23
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Pilot light gas usage
On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:13:30 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-12-06 21:55:43 +0000, Ed Sirett said: I don't agree (I wouldn't would I?) with those who _automatically_ state that a modern boiler is less reliable than a traditional type. Well.... no.... You could be doing the sharp intake of breath routine and saying something like "Mrs Jones....... it's yer pump" whereupon Mrs. Jones mouths in a hushed voice... "Will it be all right?" and you give a wry smile and nod, resulting in a very relieved looking Mrs Jones (who would be willing to pay anything to know this) and an apprentice who looks on in total wonderment at how BG can possibly get away with charging £150 per annum for this. I currently have both the apprentice and the half moon glasses it all adds to the 'credibility factor'. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards |
#24
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Pilot light gas usage
In article ,
djc wrote: Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I suppose. When I replaced a 20 year old Ideal Mexico with a Worcester Bosch condensing combi I was quite surprised to notice that I was spending 20p (7.5kWh) a day just keeping the pilot light going. This was measured over three summer months with heating off, electric hot water, and no gas used for cooking (I was rebuilding the kitchen so cooker). So yes 60UKP a year is probably correct. The old boiler was pretty basic and I suspect any heating effect from the pilot would be insignificant: much of the day and night the heating is off and the heat would be lost to the cold air in the flue. Well, if your boiler with pilot light is totally unused in the summer months it makes sense to turn it off totally. But you'd have saved more money by using it to heat your hot water rather than electricity. -- *Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away! * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#25
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Pilot light gas usage
On 2006-12-08 01:08:11 +0000, Ed Sirett said:
On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:13:30 +0000, Andy Hall wrote: and you give a wry smile and nod, resulting in a very relieved looking Mrs Jones (who would be willing to pay anything to know this) and an apprentice who looks on in total wonderment at how BG can possibly get away with charging £150 per annum for this. I currently have both the apprentice and the half moon glasses it all adds to the 'credibility factor'. Very good. I'm sure that "his elevator goes to the top floor" however. :-) Seriously though, I've found that credibility with customers is a really important point - e.g. confidence that you know what you're doing and will look after them properly. Many years ago, when I was first getting into technically supporting customers, somebody suggested that the way to go about things in the event of a problem is first to fix the customer and then to fix the problem. It has proved to be invaluable advice. |
#26
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Pilot light gas usage
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#27
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Pilot light gas usage
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors. I'm a bit confused by that. AIUI, power factor can be lagging current (inductive) or leading current (capacitive). But there has to be a phase shift - either way - for there to be a power factor other than unity. Steve |
#28
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Pilot light gas usage
In message , Steve
writes Andrew Gabriel wrote: Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors. I'm a bit confused by that. AIUI, power factor can be lagging current (inductive) or leading current (capacitive). But there has to be a phase shift - either way - for there to be a power factor other than unity. Steve In simple linear circuits you are correct. But electronic products often have switch mode power supplies*. The input to these is (was) a bridge rectifier feeding a capacitor straight off the mains, so the capacitor is charged to around 340V DC (i.e. the mains peak voltage). High frequency switching circuits then feed the power through a transformer to the low voltage secondary circuits. But the point for this discussion, is that the input capacitor is only "topped up" for a brief period near the peak of the mains voltage cycle. Hence quite a large, but narrow (~2ms) current peak from the mains. This non-sinusoidal current has a higher than expected RMS level, and also contains a lot of harmonics - which are delivering no useful power. For example, a switched mode power supply drawing 100W of real power may well draw 0.75A rms from the mains. 0.75*240 = 180VA, and power factor can also be defined as real power (watts) divided by apparent power (VA). In this case 100/180, or 0.55 power factor. Now all these harmonic currents were starting to adversely affect power distribution networks, so legislation** appeared about 10 years ago to restrict the harmonic content of the power drawn by higher power products (computers, TVs, anything electronic above 75W basically). Hence switch-mode power units with "power factor correction". For lower power stuff, (100W or so) a large inductor in the input can be used to spread the width of the current pulse and thus reduce its harmonic content. Otherwise a variety of electronic switching circuits can be used to force the product to draw a near sine wave of current from the mains. Power factors of 0.95 are easily achievable, 0.98-0.99 is typical. *Even wallwarts and other 50Hz transformered products exhibit the same problem - there's still a diode-capacitor on the secondary of the transformer for the DC output. But this lower power stuff falls out of the scope of the legislation. **Was EN60555, now EN61000-3-2. -- steve |
#29
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Pilot light gas usage
Steven Briggs wrote:
In message , Steve writes Andrew Gabriel wrote: Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors. I'm a bit confused by that. AIUI, power factor can be lagging current (inductive) or leading current (capacitive). But there has to be a phase shift - either way - for there to be a power factor other than unity. Steve In simple linear circuits you are correct. But electronic products often have switch mode power supplies*. The input to these is (was) a bridge rectifier feeding a capacitor straight off the mains, so the capacitor is charged to around 340V DC (i.e. the mains peak voltage). High frequency switching circuits then feed the power through a transformer to the low voltage secondary circuits. But the point for this discussion, is that the input capacitor is only "topped up" for a brief period near the peak of the mains voltage cycle. Hence quite a large, but narrow (~2ms) current peak from the mains. This non-sinusoidal current has a higher than expected RMS level, and also contains a lot of harmonics - which are delivering no useful power. For example, a switched mode power supply drawing 100W of real power may well draw 0.75A rms from the mains. 0.75*240 = 180VA, and power factor can also be defined as real power (watts) divided by apparent power (VA). In this case 100/180, or 0.55 power factor. Now all these harmonic currents were starting to adversely affect power distribution networks, so legislation** appeared about 10 years ago to restrict the harmonic content of the power drawn by higher power products (computers, TVs, anything electronic above 75W basically). Hence switch-mode power units with "power factor correction". For lower power stuff, (100W or so) a large inductor in the input can be used to spread the width of the current pulse and thus reduce its harmonic content. Otherwise a variety of electronic switching circuits can be used to force the product to draw a near sine wave of current from the mains. Power factors of 0.95 are easily achievable, 0.98-0.99 is typical. *Even wallwarts and other 50Hz transformered products exhibit the same problem - there's still a diode-capacitor on the secondary of the transformer for the DC output. But this lower power stuff falls out of the scope of the legislation. **Was EN60555, now EN61000-3-2. Thanks for that Steven. I really should have done some research before jumping in! Although I am aware of the pulses caused by a rectifier feeding a capacitor, I had never thought of it being a type of power factor but of course it is now you explain it so clearly. Apologies to Andrew ;-) Steve |
#30
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Pilot light gas usage
In article ,
Steve writes: Thanks for that Steven. I really should have done some research before jumping in! Although I am aware of the pulses caused by a rectifier feeding a capacitor, I had never thought of it being a type of power factor but of course it is now you explain it so clearly. Apologies to Andrew ;-) No apologies required, and I only just noticed this thread was still running. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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