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Default Pilot light gas usage

I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler
uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right?
This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot
light gas alone.

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Default Pilot light gas usage


wrote in message
ups.com...
I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler
uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right?
This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot
light gas alone.


The pilot light heat is not wasted in my archaic convection glowworm boiler
as it all goes toward heating the hot water tank. That may not be true in a
fully pumped system, I'm not that expert.

rusty



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Default Pilot light gas usage

The message
from Frank Lee Speke-King contains these words:

Circuit Board, that you can't mend and costs a fortune to replace,


Oh yes you can - and oh no it doesn't! Well, usually and not always.

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Default Pilot light gas usage

In message , Guy King
writes
The message
from Frank Lee Speke-King contains these words:

Circuit Board, that you can't mend and costs a fortune to replace,


Oh yes you can - and oh no it doesn't! Well, usually and not always.

More or less ...

--
geoff


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Default Pilot light gas usage

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 09:18:40 -0800, John Laird wrote:

Frank Lee Speke-King wrote:
wrote:

I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler
uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right?


Yep. Taking meter readings (mine's a cubic metres one and reads to the
third decimal place) my ancient Glowworm boiler uses 0.44 cu.m per day
just on the pilot light.


That's nearly 5kWh per day, which suggest the pilot flame is producing
200W. I suppose it will be helping to keep the (enormous) heat
exchanger warm for the next time you need hot water or heating.

Some interesting stats at:
http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/he...97/970103.html


I have done some of my own tests and calcs and would say that 50-200W give
or take is plausible. This is 2 magnitudes smaller than when in operation,
but is 24/7. Hence the several % effect on the overall annual energy usage.

I don't agree (I wouldn't would I?) with those who _automatically_ state
that a modern boiler is less reliable than a traditional type.

A _quality_ modern boiler might also have a long life. Electronics are not
unreliable per se. The materials used are potentially better than those
used traditionally.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards
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Default Pilot light gas usage

In article . com,
wrote:
I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler
uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right?
This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot
light gas alone.


Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that
energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to
keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so
far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I
suppose.

--
*When blondes have more fun, do they know it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default Pilot light gas usage

On 2006-12-06 21:55:43 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

I don't agree (I wouldn't would I?) with those who _automatically_ state
that a modern boiler is less reliable than a traditional type.



Well.... no....

You could be doing the sharp intake of breath routine and saying something like

"Mrs Jones....... it's yer pump"

whereupon Mrs. Jones mouths in a hushed voice...

"Will it be all right?"

and you give a wry smile and nod, resulting in a very relieved looking
Mrs Jones (who
would be willing to pay anything to know this) and an apprentice who
looks on in total wonderment
at how BG can possibly get away with charging £150 per annum for this.




A _quality_ modern boiler might also have a long life. Electronics are not
unreliable per se. The materials used are potentially better than those
used traditionally.



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Default Pilot light gas usage


Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that
energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to
keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so
far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I
suppose.


Hadn't thought of it like that, but there's only so much water inside a
boiler. As soon as the pump starts and cold water is drawn in then
surely this preheating effect is minimal?

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Default Pilot light gas usage

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:
I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler
uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right?
This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot
light gas alone.


Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that
energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to
keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so
far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I
suppose.


Of course if a boiler can effectively use this heat to keep the water
warm, you might also argue it is just as likely to be radiating it back
up the flue, once the balance has been reached between heat gain and
heat loss. At what water temperature this might occur, I wouldn't care
to guess. At 60 pounds/year and assuming the old boiler is
significantly less efficient anyway, an immediate investment in a new
boiler could be easily justified.

What surprises me is that a pilot light needs to be set at such a level
that it is producing 200W of heat anyway. Most of us would think that
leaving 200W of lighting on 24/7 would be wasteful in the extreme, even
if electricity is 3 times as expensive as gas.

[Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage
devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power
my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems
to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it
anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.]

--
"Beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers."



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Default Pilot light gas usage



On Dec 7, 10:22 am, "John Laird" wrote:
[Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage
devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power
my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems
to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it


Almost certainly an efficient switch mode supply.

anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.]


Probably a cheap inneficient transformer and linear regulator.

Anytime the heating is on, the heat from your wall warts isn't wasted.

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Default Pilot light gas usage




[Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage
devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power
my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems
to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it
anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.]


It probably also has a poor power factor as well as being left on 24/77.
Someone said there's a move afoot to replace all consumer meters with new
ones that charge by volt-amps rather than watts. They were coming to do
mine this month.
Its a double whammy since not only are gadgets like Sky and Freeview boxes
left on 24/7 (going to standby doesn't make much difference) but they will
charge consumption by the amps instead of real power. Could be nearly 10p
per day per box.

rusty



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Default Pilot light gas usage

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:52:54 -0000, "rusty" wrote:

|
|
|
| [Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage
| devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power
| my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems
| to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it
| anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.]
|
|It probably also has a poor power factor as well as being left on 24/77.
|Someone said there's a move afoot to replace all consumer meters with new
|ones that charge by volt-amps rather than watts. They were coming to do
|mine this month.
|Its a double whammy since not only are gadgets like Sky and Freeview boxes
|left on 24/7 (going to standby doesn't make much difference) but they will
|charge consumption by the amps instead of real power. Could be nearly 10p
|per day per box.

Anyone selling mains power factor correction capacitors?
They should work, but I would want to use a meter which measured power
factor to check that they were not over correcting, which would cost money.
--
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method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.
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Default Pilot light gas usage



Anyone selling mains power factor correction capacitors?
They should work, but I would want to use a meter which measured power
factor to check that they were not over correcting, which would cost
money.
--


The little 13A plug in power meter adaptors that Maplin sell and also Aldi,
Lidl from time to time will read either volt-amps or watts and show power
factor and accumulated cost. A old style Sky box has a power factor of
about 0.6 and draws 15VA which is well OTT.

rusty





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In article ,
Dave Fawthrop writes:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:52:54 -0000, "rusty" wrote:

|
| [Slight topic shift - has anyone bought one of those power usage
| devices and found it useful? I'm thinking of checking out what power
| my various toys on standby use. For example, my laptop charger seems
| to cool right off when off-charge (although I tend to disconnect it
| anyway) whereas the brick for my DAB radio is always warm.]


"useful"? Probably not very, but "interesting", most definately.

|It probably also has a poor power factor as well as being left on 24/77.
|Someone said there's a move afoot to replace all consumer meters with new
|ones that charge by volt-amps rather than watts. They were coming to do
|mine this month.


I don't think domestic customers are allowed to be charged that way.
Only industrial customers.

Anyone selling mains power factor correction capacitors?
They should work, but I would want to use a meter which measured power
factor to check that they were not over correcting, which would cost money.


Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging
current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances
does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and
can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors.

--
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Default Pilot light gas usage

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:
I've worked out that the pilot light on my old Vaillant combi boiler
uses the equivalent of 60UKP of gas per year, does this sound right?
This means a new boiler would repay in 10 years on the cost of pilot
light gas alone.


Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all that
energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes to
keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat up so
far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in use though I
suppose.


When I replaced a 20 year old Ideal Mexico with a Worcester Bosch
condensing combi I was quite surprised to notice that I was spending 20p
(7.5kWh) a day just keeping the pilot light going. This was measured
over three summer months with heating off, electric hot water, and no
gas used for cooking (I was rebuilding the kitchen so cooker). So yes
60UKP a year is probably correct. The old boiler was pretty basic and I
suspect any heating effect from the pilot would be insignificant: much
of the day and night the heating is off and the heat would be lost to
the cold air in the flue.


--
djc
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On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:13:30 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2006-12-06 21:55:43 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

I don't agree (I wouldn't would I?) with those who _automatically_ state
that a modern boiler is less reliable than a traditional type.



Well.... no....

You could be doing the sharp intake of breath routine and saying something like

"Mrs Jones....... it's yer pump"

whereupon Mrs. Jones mouths in a hushed voice...

"Will it be all right?"

and you give a wry smile and nod, resulting in a very relieved looking
Mrs Jones (who
would be willing to pay anything to know this) and an apprentice who
looks on in total wonderment
at how BG can possibly get away with charging £150 per annum for this.



I currently have both the apprentice and the half moon glasses it all adds
to the 'credibility factor'.





--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards
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In article ,
djc wrote:
Forgetting the cost of the gas used for a minute, you're assuming all
that energy is wasted. It's not - only a proportion is. The rest goes
to keeping the water inside the boiler warm so it doesn't have to heat
up so far when it fires next. More wastage when the system isn't in
use though I suppose.


When I replaced a 20 year old Ideal Mexico with a Worcester Bosch
condensing combi I was quite surprised to notice that I was spending 20p
(7.5kWh) a day just keeping the pilot light going. This was measured
over three summer months with heating off, electric hot water, and no
gas used for cooking (I was rebuilding the kitchen so cooker). So yes
60UKP a year is probably correct. The old boiler was pretty basic and I
suspect any heating effect from the pilot would be insignificant: much
of the day and night the heating is off and the heat would be lost to
the cold air in the flue.


Well, if your boiler with pilot light is totally unused in the summer
months it makes sense to turn it off totally. But you'd have saved more
money by using it to heat your hot water rather than electricity.

--
*Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away! *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On 2006-12-08 01:08:11 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:13:30 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

and you give a wry smile and nod, resulting in a very relieved looking
Mrs Jones (who
would be willing to pay anything to know this) and an apprentice who
looks on in total wonderment
at how BG can possibly get away with charging £150 per annum for this.



I currently have both the apprentice and the half moon glasses it all adds
to the 'credibility factor'.


Very good. I'm sure that "his elevator goes to the top floor" however. :-)


Seriously though, I've found that credibility with customers is a
really important point - e.g. confidence that you know what you're
doing and will look after them properly.

Many years ago, when I was first getting into technically supporting
customers, somebody suggested that the way to go about things in the
event of a problem is first to fix the customer and then to fix the
problem. It has proved to be invaluable advice.




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Andrew Gabriel wrote:


Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging
current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances
does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and
can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors.


I'm a bit confused by that.

AIUI, power factor can be lagging current (inductive) or leading current
(capacitive). But there has to be a phase shift - either way - for there
to be a power factor other than unity.

Steve
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In message , Steve
writes
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging
current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances
does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and
can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors.


I'm a bit confused by that.

AIUI, power factor can be lagging current (inductive) or leading
current (capacitive). But there has to be a phase shift - either way -
for there to be a power factor other than unity.

Steve

In simple linear circuits you are correct.
But electronic products often have switch mode power supplies*. The
input to these is (was) a bridge rectifier feeding a capacitor straight
off the mains, so the capacitor is charged to around 340V DC (i.e. the
mains peak voltage). High frequency switching circuits then feed the
power through a transformer to the low voltage secondary circuits. But
the point for this discussion, is that the input capacitor is only
"topped up" for a brief period near the peak of the mains voltage cycle.
Hence quite a large, but narrow (~2ms) current peak from the mains. This
non-sinusoidal current has a higher than expected RMS level, and also
contains a lot of harmonics - which are delivering no useful power.
For example, a switched mode power supply drawing 100W of real power may
well draw 0.75A rms from the mains. 0.75*240 = 180VA, and power factor
can also be defined as real power (watts) divided by apparent power
(VA). In this case 100/180, or 0.55 power factor.

Now all these harmonic currents were starting to adversely affect power
distribution networks, so legislation** appeared about 10 years ago to
restrict the harmonic content of the power drawn by higher power
products (computers, TVs, anything electronic above 75W basically).
Hence switch-mode power units with "power factor correction". For lower
power stuff, (100W or so) a large inductor in the input can be used to
spread the width of the current pulse and thus reduce its harmonic
content. Otherwise a variety of electronic switching circuits can be
used to force the product to draw a near sine wave of current from the
mains. Power factors of 0.95 are easily achievable, 0.98-0.99 is
typical.

*Even wallwarts and other 50Hz transformered products exhibit the same
problem - there's still a diode-capacitor on the secondary of the
transformer for the DC output. But this lower power stuff falls out of
the scope of the legislation.
**Was EN60555, now EN61000-3-2.


--
steve
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Steven Briggs wrote:
In message , Steve
writes

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Power factor correction capacitors only work to correct lagging
current. Low power factor caused by modern electronic appliances
does not fall into this category (there's no phase shift), and
can't be corrected by factor correction capacitors.


I'm a bit confused by that.

AIUI, power factor can be lagging current (inductive) or leading
current (capacitive). But there has to be a phase shift - either way -
for there to be a power factor other than unity.

Steve


In simple linear circuits you are correct.
But electronic products often have switch mode power supplies*. The
input to these is (was) a bridge rectifier feeding a capacitor straight
off the mains, so the capacitor is charged to around 340V DC (i.e. the
mains peak voltage). High frequency switching circuits then feed the
power through a transformer to the low voltage secondary circuits. But
the point for this discussion, is that the input capacitor is only
"topped up" for a brief period near the peak of the mains voltage cycle.
Hence quite a large, but narrow (~2ms) current peak from the mains. This
non-sinusoidal current has a higher than expected RMS level, and also
contains a lot of harmonics - which are delivering no useful power.
For example, a switched mode power supply drawing 100W of real power may
well draw 0.75A rms from the mains. 0.75*240 = 180VA, and power factor
can also be defined as real power (watts) divided by apparent power
(VA). In this case 100/180, or 0.55 power factor.

Now all these harmonic currents were starting to adversely affect power
distribution networks, so legislation** appeared about 10 years ago to
restrict the harmonic content of the power drawn by higher power
products (computers, TVs, anything electronic above 75W basically).
Hence switch-mode power units with "power factor correction". For lower
power stuff, (100W or so) a large inductor in the input can be used to
spread the width of the current pulse and thus reduce its harmonic
content. Otherwise a variety of electronic switching circuits can be
used to force the product to draw a near sine wave of current from the
mains. Power factors of 0.95 are easily achievable, 0.98-0.99 is typical.

*Even wallwarts and other 50Hz transformered products exhibit the same
problem - there's still a diode-capacitor on the secondary of the
transformer for the DC output. But this lower power stuff falls out of
the scope of the legislation.
**Was EN60555, now EN61000-3-2.


Thanks for that Steven. I really should have done some research before
jumping in!

Although I am aware of the pulses caused by a rectifier feeding a
capacitor, I had never thought of it being a type of power factor but of
course it is now you explain it so clearly.

Apologies to Andrew ;-)

Steve

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In article ,
Steve writes:
Thanks for that Steven. I really should have done some research before
jumping in!

Although I am aware of the pulses caused by a rectifier feeding a
capacitor, I had never thought of it being a type of power factor but of
course it is now you explain it so clearly.

Apologies to Andrew ;-)


No apologies required, and I only just noticed this thread was still running.

--
Andrew Gabriel
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