[Mark]

Hi,

I have just lifted some floorboards to replace them and have
discovered that someone has previously notched out the top of several
joists to accommodate some CH pipes in a first floor bedroom.

I know this is a difficult question to answer but can anyone tell me
how I find out if this is a serious problem and what can be done about
it. The house is a 1960's semi if that's any use.

I guess I'll need to measure the sizes of the joists and their
spacing, which I will do when the kids aren't in bed!

TIA, Mark

[rrh]

"Mark" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have just lifted some floorboards to replace them and have
discovered that someone has previously notched out the top of several
joists to accommodate some CH pipes in a first floor bedroom.

I know this is a difficult question to answer but can anyone tell me
how I find out if this is a serious problem and what can be done about
it. The house is a 1960's semi if that's any use.

I guess I'll need to measure the sizes of the joists and their
spacing, which I will do when the kids aren't in bed!

TIA, Mark


Are the pipes still in place and in service? How many notches, of what size
and how close together? How long have you lived in the property? Is there
any sign of bounciness in the floor or displacement of the joists from their
original positions (eg a gap opening up between floorboards and skirting)?
If so has it got worse during your time in the property? In short, more info
needed.

[Staffbull]

Mark wrote:
Hi,

I have just lifted some floorboards to replace them and have
discovered that someone has previously notched out the top of several
joists to accommodate some CH pipes in a first floor bedroom.

I know this is a difficult question to answer but can anyone tell me
how I find out if this is a serious problem and what can be done about
it. The house is a 1960's semi if that's any use.

I guess I'll need to measure the sizes of the joists and their
spacing, which I will do when the kids aren't in bed!

TIA, Mark

Check it out here
http://www.zurich.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres...g107780A02.pdf

But dont worry too much if they arent exactly to this spec, it probably
doesnt mean theyre gonna fail, my house has notches and drill holes way
beyond the given spec and its as solid as a rock!
I've had to comply with regs on the extension though as it's under
building regs

[Roger Mills]

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mark wrote:

Hi,

I have just lifted some floorboards to replace them and have
discovered that someone has previously notched out the top of several
joists to accommodate some CH pipes in a first floor bedroom.

I know this is a difficult question to answer but can anyone tell me
how I find out if this is a serious problem and what can be done about
it. The house is a 1960's semi if that's any use.

I guess I'll need to measure the sizes of the joists and their
spacing, which I will do when the kids aren't in bed!

TIA, Mark

It's very common - and not a problem provided the rules have been followed.
I can't quote the rules precisely, but the notches must be fairly close to
the ends of the joists and mustn't be deeper than a certain fraction of the
joist height. I'm sure someone will come along and quote chapter and verse.
Joist sizes are based on limiting the deflection of floors, rather than on
strength requirements per se - and invariably have a lot of strength in
hand. If you are over zealous with your notches, you may end up with a floor
which is a bit springly - but it's unlikely to collapse.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

[Newshound]

It's very common - and not a problem provided the rules have been followed.

The other thing I would think about is popping little bits of steel plate
over them as future protection against screws or nails; or if the boards are
going to be carpeted, mark the CH pipe runs in permanent marker pen.

[Guy King]

The message
from Mark contains these words:

I know this is a difficult question to answer but can anyone tell me
how I find out if this is a serious problem and what can be done about
it. The house is a 1960's semi if that's any use.

Every house I've ever lived in has had pipes fitted like that.

Do you have any particular concerns that lead you to think there might
be a problem with it?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[Guy King]

The message
from "Newshound" contains these words:

The other thing I would think about is popping little bits of steel plate
over them as future protection against screws or nails; or if the
boards are
going to be carpeted, mark the CH pipe runs in permanent marker pen.

If my neighbour had done that he wouldn't have put three nails through
the gas pipe.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[Phil L]

Guy King wrote:
The message
from "Newshound" contains these words:

The other thing I would think about is popping little bits of steel
plate over them as future protection against screws or nails; or if
the
boards are
going to be carpeted, mark the CH pipe runs in permanent marker pen.

If my neighbour had done that he wouldn't have put three nails through
the gas pipe.

*three*? - did he not think there was anything wrong after the first two?

[Clive George]

"Phil L" wrote in message
.uk...
Guy King wrote:
The message
from "Newshound" contains these words:

The other thing I would think about is popping little bits of steel
plate over them as future protection against screws or nails; or if
the
boards are
going to be carpeted, mark the CH pipe runs in permanent marker pen.

If my neighbour had done that he wouldn't have put three nails through
the gas pipe.

*three*? - did he not think there was anything wrong after the first two?

Was he trying to use the second two to fill the hole up again?

cheers,
clive

[Mark]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:23:07 +0100, Guy King
wrote:

The message
from Mark contains these words:

I know this is a difficult question to answer but can anyone tell me
how I find out if this is a serious problem and what can be done about
it. The house is a 1960's semi if that's any use.

Every house I've ever lived in has had pipes fitted like that.

Do you have any particular concerns that lead you to think there might
be a problem with it?

I'm no expert but I thought that pipes and cables should all go
through the middle of the joists. These are 22mm pipes so the notches
are not small.

And also I have uncovered so many bodges to this house that I almost
expect everything I find to be wrong. ;-)

Mark

[Guy King]

The message k
from "Phil L" contains these words:

If my neighbour had done that he wouldn't have put three nails through
the gas pipe.

*three*? - did he not think there was anything wrong after the first two?

Well, they didn't leak much so he didn't notice. I did - and so did his
partner - and so did my sister when she came to stay. We all noticed a
very faint smell of gas and spent some time sniffing around before
deciding it wasn't from our house. It was only when I was about to ring
Transco and thought I'd mention it to nextdoor first that I realised the
smell was coming from near his front door. You couldn't really smell it
in the house, just outside. I guess it was making its way along the
floorspace and out through the meter cupboard.

Given they both smoke heavily and cook with gas I guess we were very
lucky. It'd been like that for some weeks!

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[Guy King]

The message
from Mark contains these words:

I'm no expert but I thought that pipes and cables should all go
through the middle of the joists. These are 22mm pipes so the notches
are not small.

Nah, as others have said, it's dead common and unless the floor's
alarmingly springy it's no problem.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[bilbo*baggins]

Every basic primer on 'beam theorty' explains that the majority of Load
on any beam is carried through the 'top' and the 'bottom' surfaces.
There is a close relationship between the amount and nature of the
material in the 'top' and the 'bottom layer', and the distance apart.
Consider the shape of a steel I-beam.....
Consider the same shape of an 'engineered wooden beam'.......
Consider the shape of your floor joists, and recognise that there's
quite a lot of wood doing nothing.

Essentially, the wood along the mid-line ( the neutral axis ) is only
holding the rest - the stuff doing the work - sufficiently apart.
That's where any cutouts and holes for services should go.

Any notcheds and cutouts in the upper or lower surfaces are seriously
weakening the joist-beam, and should be repaired. Think of it this way
- would you happily fly your family in an aircraft where cutouts had
been made to the wings' mainspar, by someone unknown?
No, I didn't think so.

Only a qualified structural engineer could survey and calculate whether
there is enough strength left in your joist-beams for the loads that
are likely to be placed on them - and that's a costly exercise, with a
lot of 'ifs' and 'buts'. Happily, it is both cheap and easy to repair
these - go to your local builders' merchant ( or Google ) for a
catalogue from Simpson or Expamet, and fix in some repair plates.

Bil Bo


Mark wrote:
Hi,

I have just lifted some floorboards to replace them and have
discovered that someone has previously notched out the top of several
joists to accommodate some CH pipes in a first floor bedroom.

I know this is a difficult question to answer but can anyone tell me
how I find out if this is a serious problem and what can be done about
it. The house is a 1960's semi if that's any use.

I guess I'll need to measure the sizes of the joists and their
spacing, which I will do when the kids aren't in bed!

TIA, Mark

[The Natural Philosopher]

bilbo*baggins wrote:
Every basic primer on 'beam theorty' explains that the majority of Load
on any beam is carried through the 'top' and the 'bottom' surfaces.
There is a close relationship between the amount and nature of the
material in the 'top' and the 'bottom layer', and the distance apart.
Consider the shape of a steel I-beam.....
Consider the same shape of an 'engineered wooden beam'.......
Consider the shape of your floor joists, and recognise that there's
quite a lot of wood doing nothing.

Essentially, the wood along the mid-line ( the neutral axis ) is only
holding the rest - the stuff doing the work - sufficiently apart.
That's where any cutouts and holes for services should go.

Any notcheds and cutouts in the upper or lower surfaces are seriously
weakening the joist-beam, and should be repaired. Think of it this way
- would you happily fly your family in an aircraft where cutouts had
been made to the wings' mainspar, by someone unknown?
No, I didn't think so.


Actually beams in floors are totally overdesigned, so as to achieve
STIFFNESS. Not ultimate strength. The STIFFNESS is not actually reduced
that much by the odd knot hole or notch.

Sure the floor is weakened, Maybe it will only take 30 tons instead of
50...but the plaster underneath will be long gone before it gives way...

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:50:26 +0100 someone who may be Mark
wrote this:-

I'm no expert but I thought that pipes and cables should all go
through the middle of the joists.

Getting metal pipes (and conduit) through holes in the middle of
joists tends to be difficult.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[Guy King]

The message . com
from "bilbo*baggins" contains these words:

Any notcheds and cutouts in the upper or lower surfaces are seriously
weakening the joist-beam, and should be repaired.

You serious? I'd say pretty well every house in the land which has had
heating pipe retro-fitted to a floor has had the beams notched. How many
have had serious structural problems as a result?

While I completely agree with you about how and why the stop layers in a
beam are important, you've missed the simple fact that people have been
doing this for years without problems.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[Guy King]

The message
from David Hansen contains these words:

Getting metal pipes (and conduit) through holes in the middle of
joists tends to be difficult.

Nah, it's easy - you do it in sections shorter than the distance between
the joists and solder up the connections in each bay.

However, see note 13 and ensure that the joists are sufficiently far apart.

1.All pipe is to be made of a long hole, surrounded by metal or plastic,
centred around the hole.

2.All pipe is to be hollow throughout the entire length - do not use
holes of different length than the pipe.

3.The ID (Inside Diameter) of all pipe must not exceed their OD (Outside
Diameter) - otherwise the hole will be on the outside.

4.The pipe is supplied with nothing in the hole, so that water, steam or
other stuff can be put inside at a later date.

5.All pipe is to be supplied without rust; this can be more readily
applied at the job site.
NOTE: Some vendors are now able to supply pre-rusted pipes.
If available in your area, this product is recommended, as it will save a
great deal of time at the job site.

6.All pipe over 500ft (150m) in length should have the words "LONG PIPE"
clearly painted on each side and end, so the contractor will know it's a
long pipe.

7.Pipe over 2 miles (3.2km) in length must also have the words "LONG
PIPE" painted in the middle so the contractor will not have to walk the
entire length of the pipe to determine whether it is a long or short
pipe.

8.All pipe over 6ft (1.83m) in diameter must have the words "LARGE PIPE"
painted on it, so the contractor won't mistake it for a small pipe.

9.Flanges must be used on all pipe. Flanges must have holes from bolts,
quite seperate from the big holes in the middle.

10.When ordering 90 or 30 degree elbows, be sure to specify left-hand or
right-hand, otherwise you will end up going the wrong way.

11.Be sure to specify to your vendor whether you want level, uphill or
downhill pipe. If you use downhill pipe for going uphill, the water will
flow the wrong way.

12.All couplings should have either right-hand or left-hand threads, but
do not mix the threads, otherwise, as the coupling is being screwed
on to one pipe, it is being unscrewed from the other.

13.All pipes shorter than 1/8in (3mm) are very uneconomical in use,
requiring many joints. They are generally known as washers.

14.Joints in pipes for water must be water tight. those pipes for
compressed air, however, need only be air tight.

15.Lengths of pipes may be welded or soldered together. this method is
not recomended for concrete or earthenware pipes.

16.Other commodities are often confused with pipes. These include;
Conduit, Tube, Tunnel, and Drain. Use only genuine pipes.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 20, 8:22 am, Guy King wrote:
The message . com
from "bilbo*baggins" contains these words:

Any notcheds and cutouts in the upper or lower surfaces are seriously
weakening the joist-beam, and should be repaired.You serious? I'd say pretty well every house in the land which has had
heating pipe retro-fitted to a floor has had the beams notched. How many
have had serious structural problems as a result?

While I completely agree with you about how and why the stop layers in a
beam are important, you've missed the simple fact that people have been
doing this for years without problems.

It's what happens when you consume the theory without some practical
experience as a digestif.

MBQ