[Steve]

I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must
be crimped or soldered.

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.

Any advice on regulations regarding this type of joint would also be
helpful.

Thanks
Steve.

[Brian Sharrock]

"Steve" wrote in message
.uk...
I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must be
crimped or soldered.

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.

Any advice on regulations regarding this type of joint would also be
helpful.

Thanks
Steve.

I don't actually understand your posting. Screwfix -other suppliers are
available- supply Crimps AWG 22-18, 16-14, 12-10 (insulated terminal) and
mm² 0.5-1, 1.5-2.5, 4-6 (insulated terminal). these crimps _must_ be
'crimped' using a specified crimping (distorting) force to assure
connectivity - this is achieved by utilising a ratchet action cramping tool:
see;- http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=70036&ts=02860

--

Brian

[RzB]

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

connectivity - this is achieved by utilising a ratchet action cramping
tool:
see;- http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=70036&ts=02860

--

Brian

Hmm... That link didn't work for me - but I think you meant...

http://tinyurl.com/phagr

Roy

[Steve]

Brian Sharrock wrote:
"Steve" wrote in message
.uk...

I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must be
crimped or soldered.

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.

Any advice on regulations regarding this type of joint would also be
helpful.

Thanks
Steve.


I don't actually understand your posting. Screwfix -other suppliers are
available- supply Crimps AWG 22-18, 16-14, 12-10 (insulated terminal) and
mm² 0.5-1, 1.5-2.5, 4-6 (insulated terminal). these crimps _must_ be
'crimped' using a specified crimping (distorting) force to assure
connectivity - this is achieved by utilising a ratchet action cramping tool:
see;- http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=70036&ts=02860

OK thanks for that.

Apart from the specified clamping force, these just look like the
standard crimps that I have been using for years for bodges on old cars.

Once the connection is crimped, and presumably, insulated with heat
shrink tubing, is there anything to do other than plaster over?

Does the joint need mechanical protection i.e. a metal box with a cover
before plastering? Or is the plastering deemed to be enough?

How about the soldering option. Is a suitably twisted pair of wires, to
ensure mechanical strength, then soldered and insulated as above OK?

Sorry, too many questions!

Steve

[dcbwhaley]

Apart from the specified clamping force, these just look like the
standard crimps that I have been using for years for bodges on old cars.

They are the same. The differance is that with mains you don't bodge
it. You use the proper tool

Once the connection is crimped, and presumably, insulated with heat
shrink tubing, is there anything to do other than plaster over?

No

Does the joint need mechanical protection i.e. a metal box with a cover
before plastering? Or is the plastering deemed to be enough?

Provided it is the correct zone it doesn't need additional protection

How about the soldering option. Is a suitably twisted pair of wires, to
ensure mechanical strength, then soldered and insulated as above OK?

In principle yes. But it is not easy to use heat-shrink sleeving in
this circumstance. You need to take the outer sheath back a fair way
to get the sleeving onto the inner core. And there is a danger that
the heat of soldering will shrink the sleeving prematurely


Sorry, too many questions!

Steve

[Staffbull]

dcbwhaley wrote:
Apart from the specified clamping force, these just look like the
standard crimps that I have been using for years for bodges on old cars.

They are the same. The differance is that with mains you don't bodge
it. You use the proper tool

Once the connection is crimped, and presumably, insulated with heat
shrink tubing, is there anything to do other than plaster over?

No

Does the joint need mechanical protection i.e. a metal box with a cover
before plastering? Or is the plastering deemed to be enough?

Provided it is the correct zone it doesn't need additional protection

How about the soldering option. Is a suitably twisted pair of wires, to
ensure mechanical strength, then soldered and insulated as above OK?

In principle yes. But it is not easy to use heat-shrink sleeving in
this circumstance. You need to take the outer sheath back a fair way
to get the sleeving onto the inner core. And there is a danger that
the heat of soldering will shrink the sleeving prematurely


Sorry, too many questions!

Steve


Yep, and dont try and pull the heatshrink onto the joint while its
still warm or it'll shrink and grab like a bugger!! and then its time
to curse and recut the joint to sleeve another piece of heatshrink.
(from experience, and more than once !!)

[Steve]

dcbwhaley wrote:
Apart from the specified clamping force, these just look like the
standard crimps that I have been using for years for bodges on old cars.


They are the same. The differance is that with mains you don't bodge
it. You use the proper tool

No, I absolutely don't want to bodge anything, I am trying to undo past
bodges! I just thought that there would be a special set of connectors
that were deemed to be OK. I will buy the correct tool and crimp the
connections properly.


Once the connection is crimped, and presumably, insulated with heat
shrink tubing, is there anything to do other than plaster over?


No


Does the joint need mechanical protection i.e. a metal box with a cover
before plastering? Or is the plastering deemed to be enough?


Provided it is the correct zone it doesn't need additional protection

This connection will be made in a hall, so that it would be OK Brilliant!


How about the soldering option. Is a suitably twisted pair of wires, to
ensure mechanical strength, then soldered and insulated as above OK?


In principle yes. But it is not easy to use heat-shrink sleeving in
this circumstance. You need to take the outer sheath back a fair way
to get the sleeving onto the inner core. And there is a danger that
the heat of soldering will shrink the sleeving prematurely

Yes, points taken. The crimping method is much better all round and it
also means that I can persuade SWMBO to allow me to buy new tool :-)

Thanks for your reply, I know where I am going now!

Steve

[deano]

Steve wrote:
I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must
be crimped or soldered.

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.

Any advice on regulations regarding this type of joint would also be
helpful.

Thanks
Steve.

Just out of curiosity... can you not use a fuse connector block in a
metal pattress box with insulation tape wrapped round a few times? Or
do the new standards not allow this?

d.

[Steve]

deano wrote:

Just out of curiosity... can you not use a fuse connector block in a
metal pattress box with insulation tape wrapped round a few times? Or
do the new standards not allow this?

d.


No, I don't think so.

How would I try, or even want, to bury this "arrangement" under plaster.
How would I replace the fuse. How would the screw connections, wrapped
over with copious layers of insulating tape hold up over time.
Inaccessible except by chipping walls away after the fire.

Bad advice is worse than no advice.
Steve

[Alan Holmes]

"Steve" wrote in message
.uk...
I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must be
crimped or soldered.

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).

Put it in a conduit, either metal or plastic, so it can be withdrawn.

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.

Then you should avoid Screwfix like the plague.

Any advice on regulations regarding this type of joint would also be
helpful.

See above!

Alan


Thanks
Steve.

[Alan Holmes]

"Steve" wrote in message
.uk...
dcbwhaley wrote:
Apart from the specified clamping force, these just look like the
standard crimps that I have been using for years for bodges on old cars.


They are the same. The differance is that with mains you don't bodge
it. You use the proper tool

No, I absolutely don't want to bodge anything, I am trying to undo past
bodges! I just thought that there would be a special set of connectors
that were deemed to be OK. I will buy the correct tool and crimp the
connections properly.

You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!

Alan

[EricP]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:34:47 GMT, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
o.uk...
I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must be
crimped or soldered.

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Care to expand on this point?

99.9% of UK houses have plastered in wiring. I thought surface mount
went out in 1955.

[Clive George]

"EricP" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:34:47 GMT, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
. co.uk...
I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must
be
crimped or soldered.

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Care to expand on this point?

99.9% of UK houses have plastered in wiring. I thought surface mount
went out in 1955.

It's about the last time Alan Holmes did anything electrical :-)

cheers,
clive

[John Rumm]

Alan Holmes wrote:

You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!

He just did, by posting here.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[gort]

Apart from the specified clamping force, these just look like the
standard crimps that I have been using for years for bodges on old cars.

Crimped connections are NOT bodges if done with the correct tool. The
bodge comes from ******s who think they can just use a pair of pliers to
crimp them.

Dave

[John Rumm]

Alan Holmes wrote:

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

This is incorrect. It is both acceptable and standard practice.

Cables embedded directly in masonry, plaster etc are classed as
"installation method 2" in BS7671 - see table 4A1.

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).


Put it in a conduit, either metal or plastic, so it can be withdrawn.

Whilst acceptable, there is no requirement to do this in most cases.
Doing so however may result in you needing to apply current carrying
capacity deratings to the cable.

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.


Then you should avoid Screwfix like the plague.

Or not, since they supply exactly what you need:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...75317&ts=39844

Any advice on regulations regarding this type of joint would also be
helpful.


See above!

To quote your words "you should consult someone with a knowledge of
electrics!" - in your case, before offering advice.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Christian McArdle]

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Eh?

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).

Put it in a conduit, either metal or plastic, so it can be withdrawn.

Nice idea, if you have the depth to do so. Not required by the regs in most
case.

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.

Then you should avoid Screwfix like the plague.

Why?

Christian.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
gort wrote:
Crimped connections are NOT bodges if done with the correct tool. The
bodge comes from ******s who think they can just use a pair of pliers to
crimp them.

I'm not impressed with the results you get with these red blue and yellow
pre-insulated crimp connectors even with the correct tool. Remove the
insulation and look at one after crimping. It's usually a mess -
especially when used on wiring at the smaller end of the quoted tolerance.
Compare it to a non insulated type crimped with the correct tool - the
'pip' in the former causes the ferrule to compress in on itself and
contact the wire all the way round.

Pre-insulated types also *look* like a bodge. So I won't use them - ever.

--
*Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
Put it in a conduit, either metal or plastic, so it can be withdrawn.

Nice idea, if you have the depth to do so. Not required by the regs in
most case.

And unless the conduit is very carefully designed - and wired up after
completion - you'll have little chance of replacing wires later on all but
a straight run.

--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[dcbwhaley]

You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!

That is why he is on this forum. He consulted me.

[Steve]

Steve wrote:
I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must
be crimped or soldered.

Could someone please provide a link to a suitable joining piece (either
crimp or solder).

My screwfix catalogue seems to only show standard crimp connections.

Any advice on regulations regarding this type of joint would also be
helpful.

Thanks
Steve.

Thanks to all for the advice. I was a little puzzled by Alan's response
but this is Usenet ;-)

I purchased the proper crimping tool, as recommended, the blue joiners
and heatshrink from my local Screwfix.

I did a practice crimp on a bit of scrap cable and was very impressed
with the strength and neatness of the joint.

I have now done the connection and all seems well.

Thanks once again.

Steve.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Steve wrote:
I did a practice crimp on a bit of scrap cable and was very impressed
with the strength and neatness of the joint.

Strip the insulation off the terminal and have another look.

--
*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[dcbwhaley]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve wrote:
I did a practice crimp on a bit of scrap cable and was very impressed
with the strength and neatness of the joint.

Strip the insulation off the terminal and have another look.

The effectiveness of a crimp joint is measure by its pull strength not
by its appearance. Sausages look awfull if you strip the skin off but
they stiil taste scrunptious

[Steve]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve wrote:

I did a practice crimp on a bit of scrap cable and was very impressed
with the strength and neatness of the joint.


Strip the insulation off the terminal and have another look.


Just done that Dave. Seems perfectly OK to me. Must be beginners luck,
or that my tool is better than yours ;-)

Steve.

[Alan Holmes]

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:

You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!

He just did, by posting here.

So, other than my post, didn't he get a sensible answer?

Alan


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Alan Holmes]

"dcbwhaley" wrote in message
ups.com...


You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!

That is why he is on this forum. He consulted me.

And your advice was?

Alan

[Alan Holmes]

"EricP" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:34:47 GMT, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
. co.uk...
I know that if an electrical connection is to be plastered over it must
be
crimped or soldered.

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Care to expand on this point?

The house gets sold, the new owner decides to hang some pictures, bangs a
nail into the plaster and through the wire.

I would have thought that the danger of plastering over was obvious.

99.9% of UK houses have plastered in wiring.

That I cannot believe!

I thought surface mount
went out in 1955.

Who mentioned surface mount?

Alan

[Guy King]

The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Care to expand on this point?

The house gets sold, the new owner decides to hang some pictures, bangs a
nail into the plaster and through the wire.

Not if the wires follow the routes permitted in the rules and the
wielder of the hammer is aware of the rules.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[dcbwhaley]

You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!

That is why he is on this forum. He consulted me.

And your advice was?

..... very good advice

[Steve]

Alan Holmes wrote:
"EricP" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:34:47 GMT, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:


No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Care to expand on this point?


The house gets sold, the new owner decides to hang some pictures, bangs a
nail into the plaster and through the wire.

I would have thought that the danger of plastering over was obvious.

Well, most people would or should have the common sense to try to
determine whether any cables are likely to be under the plaster. If they
can't, cable detectors are cheap thesedays. If they do catch a cable
accidently and need to repair it, the good advice given to me in this
thread would help them, or someone less accident prone, to repair it
satisfactorily.


99.9% of UK houses have plastered in wiring.


That I cannot believe!

Well you will have to. At least 50% of my flat's wiring is under plaster.


I thought surface mount
went out in 1955.


Who mentioned surface mount?

You did, indirectly, by stating that connections and cables should not
be under plaster.

Alan

Steve.

[Steve]

dcbwhaley wrote:
You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!


That is why he is on this forum. He consulted me.

And your advice was?


.... very good advice

Thanks, it was good advice.

Steve.

[Steve]

dcbwhaley wrote:
You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!


That is why he is on this forum. He consulted me.

And your advice was?


.... very good advice


Indeed! Thanks dcbwhaley!

Steve.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Owain wrote:
Put it in a conduit, either metal or plastic, so it can be withdrawn.
Nice idea, if you have the depth to do so. Not required by the regs in
most case.

And unless the conduit is very carefully designed - and wired up after
completion

which AIUI is required by the Regs

If the regs require conduit or similar, yes.

However, many seem to use it to 'protect' a single TW&E cable run.

- you'll have little chance of replacing wires later on all but
a straight run.

A main purpose of conduit is being able to replace wires. Otherwise
might as well use MICC, SWA, Macanite or similar.

--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article om,
dcbwhaley wrote:
Strip the insulation off the terminal and have another look.

The effectiveness of a crimp joint is measure by its pull strength not
by its appearance.

There's a bit more to a decent crimp joint than mechanical strength.

Sausages look awfull if you strip the skin off but
they stiil taste scrunptious

Most are revolting. ;-)

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Alan Holmes wrote:
No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Care to expand on this point?

The house gets sold, the new owner decides to hang some pictures, bangs
a nail into the plaster and through the wire.

I would have thought that the danger of plastering over was obvious.

And your idea of putting the wire in plastic conduit would make not a
scrap of difference if someone decides to nail into the wall. Steel
conduit, yes.

--
*What boots up must come down *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[John Rumm]

Alan Holmes wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Alan Holmes wrote:

You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!

He just did, by posting here.


So, other than my post, didn't he get a sensible answer?

Indeed, other than your post yes he did. ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 18:56:30 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I would have thought that the danger of plastering over was obvious.

'tis thats why the regs state that wiring should only run vertically and
horizontally from a fitting (with exceptions for corners and ceilngs).

And your idea of putting the wire in plastic conduit would make not a
scrap of difference if someone decides to nail into the wall. Steel
conduit, yes.

The industrial round steel pipe conduit, yes but not metal capping. How
do you fix that? With nails...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

[Alan Holmes]

"Steve" wrote in message
.uk...
dcbwhaley wrote:
You should consult someone with a knowledge of electrics!


That is why he is on this forum. He consulted me.

And your advice was?


.... very good advice

Thanks, it was good advice.

To put your life at risk, doesn't sound like good advice to me.

Consider this, as I said in another post, banging nails into a wall which
has buried electic cables in is dangerous, apart from perhaps selling your
house to someone else who will drive nails into the wall, possibly killing
themselves, if you stay in the house until you get old, when your memory,
like mine, will gradually get to a point where you cannot remember why you
have stood up from a chair, you decide to hang pictures, and you forget that
you have put cables in the wall, you or your wife will be the ones banging
nails into the wall.

Now if you wish to put your life at risk because of an idiotic notion that
you can just put cables into a wal and plaster over them, that is your
prerogative, but do not put someone elses life in danger.

Now I speak from experience, when I moved into the house I an in, I wanted
to make some alteration to a room, I think it was to remove a fireplace, and
I started to use a chisel on the wall to release the fireplace, but,
fortunately, before any damage was done, I discovered that the previous
owner had done exactly what I am warning you not to do, cables were buried
in the plaster, and if I had been a couple of millimeteres out I would
possibly be dead, so ignore the 'good advice' you have been given and do the
job properly.

Alan


Steve.

[Alan Holmes]

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:

No electrical wire or connection should be plastered over.

Care to expand on this point?

The house gets sold, the new owner decides to hang some pictures, bangs a
nail into the plaster and through the wire.

Not if the wires follow the routes permitted in the rules and the
wielder of the hammer is aware of the rules.

So, you buy a house, and you know where the cables are because you are
phsycic?

Alan


--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Alan Holmes wrote:
Not if the wires follow the routes permitted in the rules and the
wielder of the hammer is aware of the rules.

So, you buy a house, and you know where the cables are because you are
phsycic?

Since pretty well no one uses steel conduit the answer is you check.

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.