[Liam]

Whats the best available material around for sealing a replacement
pane in a single glazed wooden sash window? Used Linseed Oil Putty on
the last one but that was five years ago.

[[email protected]]

Liam wrote:

Whats the best available material around for sealing a replacement
pane in a single glazed wooden sash window? Used Linseed Oil Putty on
the last one but that was five years ago.

linseed oil putty. Give the tub a squeeze before paying, it hsould all
be soft.

NT

[Dave Fawthrop]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:24:20 +0100, Liam wrote:

|Whats the best available material around for sealing a replacement
|pane in a single glazed wooden sash window? Used Linseed Oil Putty on
|the last one but that was five years ago.

I moved over to Butyl putty some years ago
It does not set like linseed. IMO much better.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

[Stuart Noble]

Liam wrote:
Whats the best available material around for sealing a replacement
pane in a single glazed wooden sash window? Used Linseed Oil Putty on
the last one but that was five years ago.

Linseed oil putty sets rock hard over time and is the major cause of rot
in the lower part of sliding sashes. The thicker layer used in casement
windows has a better chance of survival but basically it has nothing
going for it compared to acrylics. They can be overpainted within a
couple of hours and stay flexible. IIRC Vallance do a universal sealant
suitable for glazing

[Stuart Noble]

Liam wrote:
Whats the best available material around for sealing a replacement
pane in a single glazed wooden sash window? Used Linseed Oil Putty on
the last one but that was five years ago.

This looks like an acrylic

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp;jsessionid=CDO1JMQMRQS3GCSTHZOSFFI?id=9905 8&ts=42578

[Liam]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:24:20 +0100, Liam
wrote:

Whats the best available material around for sealing a replacement
pane in a single glazed wooden sash window? Used Linseed Oil Putty on
the last one but that was five years ago.
Thank you all for your advice.This time I had a bit of a job to find a
shop selling glass cut to size. Three local ones had shut. Eventually
found one still open. Only silicone and linseed oil available so I
ended up using linseed oil putty again. Will get some Acrylic from
Screwfix to try on the next one.Wish you all a restful bank holiday.

[[email protected]]

Liam wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:24:20 +0100, Liam
wrote:

Whats the best available material around for sealing a replacement
pane in a single glazed wooden sash window? Used Linseed Oil Putty on
the last one but that was five years ago.
Thank you all for your advice.This time I had a bit of a job to find a
shop selling glass cut to size. Three local ones had shut. Eventually
found one still open. Only silicone and linseed oil available so I
ended up using linseed oil putty again. Will get some Acrylic from
Screwfix to try on the next one.Wish you all a restful bank holiday.

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.


NT

[[email protected]]

wrote:

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.


NT

I find white silicone very convenient to use rather than putty. You
could run round several windows in an hour with a tube of silicone and
if you were to replace the putty it would take days.
Putty has had its day. It is obsolete because its so difficult to
remove and when it drys it lets the rain in. I wouldnt take it for
nothing.

We have to move on with the new materials. I guess silicone and related
products have replaced many of the difficult finishing jobs like
sealing door and window frames and skirting and decorating etc etc.

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
wrote:

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.


NT

I find white silicone very convenient to use rather than putty. You
could run round several windows in an hour with a tube of silicone

But could you get a good finish and not get any on the glass? Also,
being soft and rubbery, it attracts dirt.

if you were to replace the putty it would take days.


You've obviously never watched a glazier puttying a window. It is
precisely because it's so cheap and fast to apply that they continue
using it.


Putty has had its day. It is obsolete because its so difficult to
remove

Not half as difficult as silicone. Glaziers won't touch windows where it
has been used

and when it drys it lets the rain in. I wouldnt take it for
nothing.

Unfortunately it lets the rain in before it shows any outward signs of
failing. By the time the paint film cracks, the damage is done.



We have to move on with the new materials. I guess silicone and related
products have replaced many of the difficult finishing jobs like
sealing door and window frames and skirting and decorating etc etc.

Agreed, but silicone is not a good replacement for putty.

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.


Tests have shown that acrylics last for a thousand years

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
You've obviously never watched a glazier puttying a window. It is
precisely because it's so cheap and fast to apply that they continue
using it.



The is a glazier who is doing it day in and day out. We mere mortals
only put the odd pane of glass in and silicone is the easy way out.


Putty has had its day. It is obsolete because its so difficult to
remove

Not half as difficult as silicone. Glaziers won't touch windows where it
has been used

Glaziers are not DIY men. We are.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
wrote:

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.

I find white silicone very convenient to use rather than putty. You
could run round several windows in an hour with a tube of silicone and
if you were to replace the putty it would take days.

Odd, I've never had that problem with it. Maybe you're using the wrong
technique.


Putty has had its day. It is obsolete because its so difficult to
remove

its tough yes, but one rarely need remove it. A couple of panes per
house per century maybe.


and when it drys it lets the rain in.

nonsense


I wouldnt take it for
nothing.

We have to move on with the new materials.

do we? why?

I guess silicone and related
products have replaced many of the difficult finishing jobs like
sealing door and window frames and skirting and decorating etc etc.

There are good uses for silicone et al, but there are still good uses
for the older ones too. I think maybe you underestimate them. It would
be interesting to see how many of your frames have rotted a century
later due to silicone failure, I'd bet on it being much worse than
linseed. I'm sticking with linseed as it has such an excellent record.


NT

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.

Tests have shown that acrylics last for a thousand years

Provide a cite for this manufacturer's test if it exists. However I
suspect youre just being a time waster as always.


NT

[Guy King]

The message om
from contains these words:

Glaziers are not DIY men.

Quite so. They have a merry glaziers' song, for a start.

http://www.skipweasel.pwp.blueyonder...nds/gasman.mp3

(Flanders and Swann - The Gasman Cometh)

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.

Tests have shown that acrylics last for a thousand years

Provide a cite for this manufacturer's test if it exists. However I
suspect youre just being a time waster as always.


NT


Just taking the **** out of you for citing a century plus for linseed
putty survival. As you well know, it can even go hard in the tub if not
tightly sealed, and that's in a great lump. When it goes hard on your
windows it is worse than useless, being about as hard and brittle as the
glass itself.
You must have realised by now that linseed putty is *only* effective if
it *doesn't* dry, which it may not for many years if protected by paint
and a favourable aspect. On a south facing window the chances are minimal.
Don't you think it's time you started thinking about these things rather
than just spouting dogma? Have you never picked lengths of putty out of
a window with your fingernail? You can snap then into 3mm pieces. That's
what I call inflexible (and useless).

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
You must have realised by now that linseed putty is *only* effective
if
it *doesn't* dry, which it may not for many years if protected by paint
and a favourable aspect. On a south facing window the chances are minimal.
Don't you think it's time you started thinking about these things rather
than just spouting dogma? Have you never picked lengths of putty out of
a window with your fingernail? You can snap then into 3mm pieces. That's
what I call inflexible (and useless).

precisely and if mr meeow ever had to replace a broken pane of glass he
would know all about removing old putty.

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
You must have realised by now that linseed putty is *only* effective
if
it *doesn't* dry, which it may not for many years if protected by paint
and a favourable aspect. On a south facing window the chances are minimal.
Don't you think it's time you started thinking about these things rather
than just spouting dogma? Have you never picked lengths of putty out of
a window with your fingernail? You can snap then into 3mm pieces. That's
what I call inflexible (and useless).

precisely and if mr meeow ever had to replace a broken pane of glass he
would know all about removing old putty.



The amazing thing is that some of it survives very well, but rarely on
the bottom of the window where it is most needed.

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:


The amazing thing is that some of it survives very well, but rarely on
the bottom of the window where it is most needed.

correct and if you examine old windows there is almost always a fine
gap between the putty and the glass which allows the rain to get down
to the wood and rot it.
I have had to replace windows that were 30 years old and yet some old
pitch pine windows are still sound after two hundred years. So his
talk of window age is more down to the quality of the wood than the
work of the putty.

[raden]

In message .com,
writes

Stuart Noble wrote:
You must have realised by now that linseed putty is *only* effective
if
it *doesn't* dry, which it may not for many years if protected by paint
and a favourable aspect. On a south facing window the chances are minimal.
Don't you think it's time you started thinking about these things rather
than just spouting dogma? Have you never picked lengths of putty out of
a window with your fingernail? You can snap then into 3mm pieces. That's
what I call inflexible (and useless).

precisely and if mr meeow ever had to replace a broken pane of glass he
would know all about removing old putty.

.... Blunting a chisel on some right now


--
geoff

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

I thought acrylic sealants were generally not as long lived as
silicone, which itself isnt longlived enough for wooden glazing.
Linseed normally lasts over a century. It can fail of course, but as
often as acrylic? I doubt it.

Tests have shown that acrylics last for a thousand years

Provide a cite for this manufacturer's test if it exists. However I
suspect youre just being a time waster as always.

Just taking the **** out of you for citing a century plus for linseed
putty survival.

on most 100 yr old houses most of the putty is still original, and
still ok. Therefore the MTTF of linseed putty is 100 years. Only a
time wasting fool like you could be incapable of grasping such a simple
concept.


NT

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:

on most 100 yr old houses most of the putty is still original

Dream on

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

on most 100 yr old houses most of the putty is still original

Dream on

he's right. my house is 250 years old and many windows still have their
original putty but they are the ones on the sheltered side.
The timber of course was far superior than the stuff they sell today.
kiln dried pitch pine.
If you sawed through a piece of it you can smell the resin in it as if
it was fresh.

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

on most 100 yr old houses most of the putty is still original
Dream on

he's right. my house is 250 years old and many windows still have their
original putty but they are the ones on the sheltered side.
The timber of course was far superior than the stuff they sell today.
kiln dried pitch pine.
If you sawed through a piece of it you can smell the resin in it as if
it was fresh.


Good for you, but to say *most* old houses still have their original
putty is ridiculous, and how could you tell it was the original?

Putty only does what you'd expect a mixture of a drying oil and chalk to
do, namely dry out and become rock solid. This would not happen if you
kept it in a plastic bag for 200 years or had some other way of
excluding air from it on all sides. Pitch pine on one side and a coat of
paint on the other may provide this protection but the paint film only
survives in sheltered locations.

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

on most 100 yr old houses most of the putty is still original

Dream on

he's right. my house is 250 years old and many windows still have their
original putty but they are the ones on the sheltered side.
The timber of course was far superior than the stuff they sell today.
kiln dried pitch pine.
If you sawed through a piece of it you can smell the resin in it as if
it was fresh.

Good for you, but to say *most* old houses still have their original
putty is ridiculous, and how could you tell it was the original?

Putty only does what you'd expect a mixture of a drying oil and chalk to
do, namely dry out and become rock solid. This would not happen if you
kept it in a plastic bag for 200 years or had some other way of
excluding air from it on all sides. Pitch pine on one side and a coat of
paint on the other may provide this protection but the paint film only
survives in sheltered locations.

so you'll use 10 year mttf acrylic and I'll use 100 yr mttf linseed.
Sounds like the right solution to me.


NT

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

on most 100 yr old houses most of the putty is still original

Dream on

he's right. my house is 250 years old and many windows still have their
original putty but they are the ones on the sheltered side.
The timber of course was far superior than the stuff they sell today.
kiln dried pitch pine.
If you sawed through a piece of it you can smell the resin in it as if
it was fresh.

Good for you, but to say *most* old houses still have their original
putty is ridiculous, and how could you tell it was the original?

Putty only does what you'd expect a mixture of a drying oil and chalk to
do, namely dry out and become rock solid. This would not happen if you
kept it in a plastic bag for 200 years or had some other way of
excluding air from it on all sides. Pitch pine on one side and a coat of
paint on the other may provide this protection but the paint film only
survives in sheltered locations.

so you'll use 10 year mttf acrylic and I'll use 100 yr mttf linseed.
Sounds like the right solution to me.


Presumably you won't need to use either given the longevity of putty

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

so you'll use 10 year mttf acrylic and I'll use 100 yr mttf linseed.
Sounds like the right solution to me.

Presumably you won't need to use either given the longevity of putty

so you still dont understand mttf. What a surprise.


NT

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

so you'll use 10 year mttf acrylic and I'll use 100 yr mttf linseed.
Sounds like the right solution to me.

Presumably you won't need to use either given the longevity of putty

so you still dont understand mttf. What a surprise.


NT


No, I'm not an engineer. The inappropriate use of the term here labels
you as a pompous little ****.

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:

so you'll use 10 year mttf acrylic and I'll use 100 yr mttf linseed.
Sounds like the right solution to me.

Presumably you won't need to use either given the longevity of putty

so you still dont understand mttf. What a surprise.

No, I'm not an engineer. The inappropriate use of the term here labels
you as a pompous little ****.

its the one and only term that describes it. Its the one and only
concept that is key to the question under discssion. Hard to see how
that would make it inappropriate.

But no doubt you'll have some strange explanation. Which will be
anything other than that you like to waste peoples time with your
ignorance.

I shall remember in future that knowing anything you dont makes me a
pompous whatnot. I dont see what difference it makes really. But it is
odd that you persist in arguing your point of view when not
understanding the relevant concepts.


NT

[[email protected]]

wrote:
I shall remember in future that knowing anything you dont makes me a
pompous whatnot. I dont see what difference it makes really. But it is
odd that you persist in arguing your point of view when not
understanding the relevant concepts.


the main point we were debating was the use of the putty against
silicone.

We all agree putty lasts a long time but it does let the rain in, it
cracks up and is difficult to apply for a diy person and terribly
difficult to remove in a broken glass situation.
Silicone is easily applied and a perfect seal against the rain. A bed
of silicone on the timber first and a finish outside the glass gives a
terrific weather seal in a few minutes.
100 years ago they didnt have silicone and I dare say it they did you
would be talking about the 100 year old silicone now.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
wrote:

I shall remember in future that knowing anything you dont makes me a
pompous whatnot. I dont see what difference it makes really. But it is
odd that you persist in arguing your point of view when not
understanding the relevant concepts.

the main point we were debating was the use of the putty against
silicone.

We all agree putty lasts a long time but it does let the rain in, it
cracks up and is difficult to apply for a diy person and terribly
difficult to remove in a broken glass situation.
Silicone is easily applied and a perfect seal against the rain. A bed
of silicone on the timber first and a finish outside the glass gives a
terrific weather seal in a few minutes.
100 years ago they didnt have silicone and I dare say it they did you
would be talking about the 100 year old silicone now.

I agree with much of what you say, but its all minor in comparison to
the real point, which is that linseed lasts many times as long as any
of those alternatives. Thats what counts, and thats why a 100 year old
house done with silicone would have more rot than one done with
linseed. MTTF (mean time to failure) is all important.

Linseed does not let rain in, not until its reached end of life. Nor is
it diffcult to apply IME. I last applied it hanging out of a window
semi- upside down, and had no difficulty doing so.


NT

[[email protected]]

wrote:
I agree with much of what you say, but its all minor in comparison
to
the real point, which is that linseed lasts many times as long as any
of those alternatives. Thats what counts, and thats why a 100 year old
house done with silicone would have more rot than one done with
linseed. MTTF (mean time to failure) is all important.

Linseed does not let rain in, not until its reached end of life. Nor is
it diffcult to apply IME. I last applied it hanging out of a window
semi- upside down, and had no difficulty doing so.


Silicone is untried for time because its relatively new in the market.

nearly all my puttied windows have tiny gaps between the hard putty and
the glass and this lets the rain down the glass to the wood. Its the
same everywhere I look.

you are probably handy at putting on putty but its tricky for a layman
and most dont even know how to soften it. then its terrible to get off
your hands and stinks.
If you had to reputty your own window surely that proves that the putty
wasnt up to the job you are saying it is.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
wrote:

I agree with much of what you say, but its all minor in comparison to
the real point, which is that linseed lasts many times as long as any
of those alternatives. Thats what counts, and thats why a 100 year old
house done with silicone would have more rot than one done with
linseed. MTTF (mean time to failure) is all important.

Linseed does not let rain in, not until its reached end of life. Nor is
it diffcult to apply IME. I last applied it hanging out of a window
semi- upside down, and had no difficulty doing so.

Silicone is untried for time because its relatively new in the market.

yes, only time will tell us for sure. But I've probably seen more
silicone failures during its short existence than I have from linseed
on century old houses, hence I stick with linseed.


nearly all my puttied windows have tiny gaps between the hard putty and
the glass and this lets the rain down the glass to the wood. Its the
same everywhere I look.

So either theyre not painted properly, or the putty has failed, or the
wood has swollen due to paint failure. Linseed should always be
overpainted where it meets the glass, this painting fills the hairline
crack its prone to. It may sound a bit crude but it works well enough
in practice.


you are probably handy at putting on putty but its tricky for a layman
and most dont even know how to soften it. then its terrible to get off
your hands and stinks.

its totally harmless, and smells nice enough. The components, if of
adequate grade, are both edible.


If you had to reputty your own window surely that proves that the putty
wasnt up to the job you are saying it is.

MTTF of 100 yrs or more is perfectly consistent with some failures.
AFAIK theres no putty that will produce 0 failures per century, but
linseed has come closest so far. I'd like to see the day we have
something that beats it, but I dont believe acrylic or silicone show
much sign of lasting as well. Its not perfect but it does last
relatively well.


NT

[Stuart Noble]

Linseed should always be
overpainted where it meets the glass, this painting fills the hairline
crack its prone to. It may sound a bit crude but it works well enough
in practice.

Look, the main requirement for any material sitting at the bottom of a
sheet of glass where it joins a piece of wood has to be that it doesn't
crack. Linseed putty cracks. Get over it.

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
wrote:
I agree with much of what you say, but its all minor in comparison
to
the real point, which is that linseed lasts many times as long as any
of those alternatives. Thats what counts, and thats why a 100 year old
house done with silicone would have more rot than one done with
linseed. MTTF (mean time to failure) is all important.

Linseed does not let rain in, not until its reached end of life. Nor is
it diffcult to apply IME. I last applied it hanging out of a window
semi- upside down, and had no difficulty doing so.


Silicone is untried for time because its relatively new in the market.

nearly all my puttied windows have tiny gaps between the hard putty and
the glass and this lets the rain down the glass to the wood. Its the
same everywhere I look.

you are probably handy at putting on putty but its tricky for a layman
and most dont even know how to soften it. then its terrible to get off
your hands and stinks.
If you had to reputty your own window surely that proves that the putty
wasnt up to the job you are saying it is.


Linseed putty is dead easy to use. It's not even that difficult to get
the sharp mitres at the corners with a bit of practice.
Think hard before using silicone for this kind of work. If you find one
that says it can be used as a putty replacement, let us know. I doubt it
somehow.

[Stuart Noble]

MTTF of 100 yrs or more is perfectly consistent with some failures.

It has failed when the first hairline crack appears

[[email protected]]

Stuart Noble wrote:

Linseed should always be
overpainted where it meets the glass, this painting fills the hairline
crack its prone to. It may sound a bit crude but it works well enough
in practice.

Look, the main requirement for any material sitting at the bottom of a
sheet of glass where it joins a piece of wood has to be that it doesn't
crack. Linseed putty cracks. Get over it.

Good luck with your acrylic then.

[Stuart Noble]

wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

Linseed should always be
overpainted where it meets the glass, this painting fills the hairline
crack its prone to. It may sound a bit crude but it works well enough
in practice.

Look, the main requirement for any material sitting at the bottom of a
sheet of glass where it joins a piece of wood has to be that it doesn't
crack. Linseed putty cracks. Get over it.

Good luck with your acrylic then.


My Victorian sliding sashes glazed with it 15 years ago show no sign of
deterioration.