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jkn jkn is offline
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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

Hi all
One of those questions where 'not enough' information is gonna be
supplied, I'm afraid ...

We're having the kitchen ceiling re-boarded & skimmed shortly. I will
be taking down the current light and pull-switch in preparation. I
would like to replace the existing 5 foot standard contract fluorescent
fitting with something a little better, either aesthetically and/or
functionally; yet just at the moment I really don't want to spend long
on making any changes.

So for the moment altering the wiring (much), or extending to make a
'proper' job of it, is not on. Instead ... I'm looking for ways to
improve the appearance and maybe utility of the current scheme with
minimal work. The kind of things I'm thinking of a

- a 'deluxe' fluorescent fitting, just for appearances sake. Are there
such things?
- maybe replacing the single 5 footer with a couple of shorter
'staggered' ones, or something similar
- a genius idea that I haven't thought of and which will amaze me!

OK, a little bit more info. The kitchen is 2.5m by 2.6m, with a window
facing east. There are standard cupboards (with a gap to the ceiling)
on the N wall. The kitchen is actually one half of a kitchen/diner;
there is a similar-sized room (with a similar Fluorescent) connected on
the W side.

The current Fluorescent is in the middle of the kitchen ceiling,
running E-W. I think the joists run this way.

As I say, not enough information! Nevertheless, any thoughts?

Thanks a lot
Jon N

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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

In article .com,
"jkn" writes:
Hi all
One of those questions where 'not enough' information is gonna be
supplied, I'm afraid ...

We're having the kitchen ceiling re-boarded & skimmed shortly. I will
be taking down the current light and pull-switch in preparation. I
would like to replace the existing 5 foot standard contract fluorescent
fitting with something a little better, either aesthetically and/or
functionally; yet just at the moment I really don't want to spend long
on making any changes.


You have wall mounted cupboards with a gap between the tops
and the ceiling, so the best thing to do is to install fittings
out of sight on top of the cupboards, and use indirect light
bouncing off the ceiling to light the room. This scheme works
extremely well. If you are having the ceiling reboarded, it is
very easy to take a cable run from the existing point across to
each group of wall cupboards and drop down the wall to just above
the cupboard top. These could also supply undercupbard lighting,
which also works well for local worktop illumination. You can choose
if you want to retain the central lighting point for something rather
low power and more decorative than functional (centre of the kitchen
ceiling is just about the worse place to have functional lighting
unless it's over an island), or get rid of the central lighting point
all together. If you have a worktop or sink on the other side from
the cupboard, you could look at one or two recessed downlighters
over that, or a wall mounted uplighter to again provide indirect
light from the ceiling at that point. All are available in fluorescent
form to give good lighting levels without burning a hole in your
pocket or the planet.

- a 'deluxe' fluorescent fitting, just for appearances sake. Are there
such things?


In my mind, the 'deluxe' one is the one which isn't visible, hence
the suggestion of putting them out of sight on cupboard tops.

--
Andrew Gabriel
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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

Joe wrote:

There were circular fluorescents and moderately decorative housings
for them.


And very "old peoples home chic" they look as well ;-)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Joe wrote:

There were circular fluorescents and moderately decorative housings
for them.


And very "old peoples home chic" they look as well ;-)


I always think very 1960's when I see them.
Anyone remember the ones which had a filament lamp in
the middle, which was actually the tube's ballast?

--
Andrew Gabriel
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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"jkn" writes:
Hi all
One of those questions where 'not enough' information is gonna be
supplied, I'm afraid ...

We're having the kitchen ceiling re-boarded & skimmed shortly. I will
be taking down the current light and pull-switch in preparation. I
would like to replace the existing 5 foot standard contract fluorescent
fitting with something a little better, either aesthetically and/or
functionally; yet just at the moment I really don't want to spend long
on making any changes.


You have wall mounted cupboards with a gap between the tops
and the ceiling, so the best thing to do is to install fittings
out of sight on top of the cupboards, and use indirect light
bouncing off the ceiling to light the room. This scheme works
extremely well.


I have a variaton to this, kinda.

I dont have any space betwixt top of units and ceiling, so I cut a 4x5 foot
oval from MDF and mouted it in the center of the ceiling 3 inches from it.
On top of this board are 4x20w compact under-cupbard style fluro's around
its periphery on one circuit.

Flush mounted into the center of the board are 4x 35w 12v halogen eyeballs
which give me directional light onto the table below, and cooker.

Works a treat .

Tim..


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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

Hi Andrew
Thanks for the suggestion. I was anticipating something like this,
which *ideally* would be my approach. However I've left things a bit
late for this (he's coming Monday!) and I haven't done the necessary
(to me ;-/ ) research to determine the fixings & wattage necessary for
this. Hence my original question.

Now, given your strong re-recommendation for this, let me ask something
else.

I would consider adding some cable to allow me to fit such
over-cupboard indirect lighting when I get a roundtuit. One reason I
was avoiding doing any wiring changes was because to my mind this would
involve cutting holes/slots in the joists to take the wiring. Since the
plaster boarding is going over the current ceiling, what (simple/quick)
approach would you take to taking the newcables across the joists?

As you can probably tell I'm reluctant to rip into the current ceiling
too much, although I could be persuaded...

Oh - a point of clarification. Given the room width of 2.5mm, is it
feasible to light the whole width from lights above the cupboards on
one side only?

Thanks
Jon N


Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article .com,
"jkn" writes:
Hi all
One of those questions where 'not enough' information is gonna be
supplied, I'm afraid ...

We're having the kitchen ceiling re-boarded & skimmed shortly. I will
be taking down the current light and pull-switch in preparation. I
would like to replace the existing 5 foot standard contract fluorescent
fitting with something a little better, either aesthetically and/or
functionally; yet just at the moment I really don't want to spend long
on making any changes.


You have wall mounted cupboards with a gap between the tops
and the ceiling, so the best thing to do is to install fittings
out of sight on top of the cupboards, and use indirect light
bouncing off the ceiling to light the room. This scheme works
extremely well. If you are having the ceiling reboarded, it is
very easy to take a cable run from the existing point across to
each group of wall cupboards and drop down the wall to just above
the cupboard top. These could also supply undercupbard lighting,
which also works well for local worktop illumination. You can choose
if you want to retain the central lighting point for something rather
low power and more decorative than functional (centre of the kitchen
ceiling is just about the worse place to have functional lighting
unless it's over an island), or get rid of the central lighting point
all together. If you have a worktop or sink on the other side from
the cupboard, you could look at one or two recessed downlighters
over that, or a wall mounted uplighter to again provide indirect
light from the ceiling at that point. All are available in fluorescent
form to give good lighting levels without burning a hole in your
pocket or the planet.

- a 'deluxe' fluorescent fitting, just for appearances sake. Are there
such things?


In my mind, the 'deluxe' one is the one which isn't visible, hence
the suggestion of putting them out of sight on cupboard tops.

--
Andrew Gabriel


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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

Hi Tim

I have a variaton to this, kinda.

I dont have any space betwixt top of units and ceiling, so I cut a 4x5 foot
oval from MDF and mouted it in the center of the ceiling 3 inches from it.
On top of this board are 4x20w compact under-cupbard style fluro's around
its periphery on one circuit.

Flush mounted into the center of the board are 4x 35w 12v halogen eyeballs
which give me directional light onto the table below, and cooker.

Works a treat .


Thanks, that's an interesting idea. I could fit something like this at
a later date, I guess. Is a 3-inch gap sufficient for the indirect
illumination? I'd have thought that would have cramped things a bit...


Cheers
Jon N

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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?


jkn wrote:

Oh - a point of clarification. Given the room width of 2.5mm, is it
feasible to light the whole width from lights above the cupboards on
one side only?


How about a laser for that size? ;-)

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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

We managed to get the "Lighting Bible 6" catalogue
from these guys...

www.deltalight.co.uk

wonderful inspiration... Stuff I never knew existed...
Completely changed our minds on all sorts of things
re our kitchen refurbishment...

Web site is grim - flash overload... but 3 inch thick
catalogue is filled with ideas... Almost as good as
the Axminster catalogue as far as a good read is
concerned :-)

Roy





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Hi Owain


Web site is grim - flash overload...


They say it's won awards, which is why it's slow.

Beyond that initial page, I get *nothing*

Owain


Works for me with Firefox. Ridiculous website, without a doubt. TBH
this is the way I _don't_ want to go ... I just want something cheap
and cheerful on this occasion. I'm warming to the idea of running some
cables to the gap above the cupboards and fitting fluorescents there
eventually. So given that the current Centre lamp is a 65W 5 foot
strip, what sort of uplighting wattage should I be thinking of?

Cheers
Jon N

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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

jkn wrote:
Hi all
One of those questions where 'not enough' information is gonna be
supplied, I'm afraid ...

We're having the kitchen ceiling re-boarded & skimmed shortly. I will
be taking down the current light and pull-switch in preparation. I
would like to replace the existing 5 foot standard contract fluorescent
fitting with something a little better, either aesthetically and/or
functionally; yet just at the moment I really don't want to spend long
on making any changes.

So for the moment altering the wiring (much), or extending to make a
'proper' job of it, is not on. Instead ... I'm looking for ways to
improve the appearance and maybe utility of the current scheme with
minimal work. The kind of things I'm thinking of a

- a 'deluxe' fluorescent fitting, just for appearances sake. Are there
such things?
- maybe replacing the single 5 footer with a couple of shorter
'staggered' ones, or something similar
- a genius idea that I haven't thought of and which will amaze me!

OK, a little bit more info. The kitchen is 2.5m by 2.6m, with a window
facing east. There are standard cupboards (with a gap to the ceiling)
on the N wall. The kitchen is actually one half of a kitchen/diner;
there is a similar-sized room (with a similar Fluorescent) connected on
the W side.

The current Fluorescent is in the middle of the kitchen ceiling,
running E-W. I think the joists run this way.

As I say, not enough information! Nevertheless, any thoughts?

Thanks a lot
Jon N



If you need something quick and simple, I'd put in a 4' electronic
ballasted fl light with a 3500K tube. Later if you get time you could
add a sheet wood cover over it to block direct view and spread the
light about more.

Electronic ballasts mean no flashing during startup, and no running
flicker. 3500K is probably the best of the (cheaper) halophosphate fl
tubes, triphosphors are the best but will add a tenner to the price.

Beware of accepting whatever tube youre offered, a lot of people wind
up with junk grade tubes, or unsuitable ones such as 4000K.

If you run wires to any over-cupboard area thats easily reached, more
lighting can be added in later if you ever get a round twit.

If youre able to take each lighting point feed back to the switch, do.
Then as and when you can put a switchbank in, which is a real
improvment over a single switch.


NT

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In article .com,
"jkn" writes:

Works for me with Firefox. Ridiculous website, without a doubt. TBH
this is the way I _don't_ want to go ... I just want something cheap
and cheerful on this occasion. I'm warming to the idea of running some
cables to the gap above the cupboards and fitting fluorescents there
eventually. So given that the current Centre lamp is a 65W 5 foot
strip, what sort of uplighting wattage should I be thinking of?


You should paint the ceiling matt white (titainuim dioxide) for
maximum reflection and diffusion. Also make sure tops of cupboards
are white (doesn't need to be matt). You will need more power
because of losses at non-perfect reflective surfaces.
What is the length of the cupboard run?
Are you thinking of any other lighting in the room, such as
under cupboard, down lighters or uplighters on the other side
of the room, etc?
What height of object is the largest you can stand on the top
of the cupboard at the back, and yet it not be visible when you
are standing at the other side of the room?

--
Andrew Gabriel
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In article ,
Owain writes:
mike wrote:
I have a circular fluorescent - I googled for some sources, but they seem
hard to find - loadsa tubez, though; I replaced an uglu strip light with
it.


TLC have them - the sort that look like a shallow upside-down cut-glass
fruit-bowl.


Larger B&Q's have a selection, but I've never seen any I
particularly liked.

--
Andrew Gabriel
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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

Hi Andrew

[...]
eventually. So given that the current Centre lamp is a 65W 5 foot
strip, what sort of uplighting wattage should I be thinking of?


You should paint the ceiling matt white (titainuim dioxide) for
maximum reflection and diffusion. Also make sure tops of cupboards
are white (doesn't need to be matt). You will need more power
because of losses at non-perfect reflective surfaces.
What is the length of the cupboard run?


about 2m. Do you use reflectors on the indirect lights, or just allow
the light to bounce around?

Are you thinking of any other lighting in the room, such as
under cupboard, down lighters or uplighters on the other side
of the room, etc?


I'm now, after this thread, thinking of keeping the current
centre-of-room cable, and fit some sort of directional multi-bulb
fitting, as well as the top-of-cupboard lighting.

What height of object is the largest you can stand on the top
of the cupboard at the back, and yet it not be visible when you
are standing at the other side of the room?


about four inches - I can just see the top of the extractor hood pipe.
There is about another six inches of clearance above that.

Would you drill through the joists to carry the cable across or is
there a neater/easier way in this instance?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jon N



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Hi there


[...]

useful stuff snipped - thanks

If you run wires to any over-cupboard area thats easily reached, more
lighting can be added in later if you ever get a round twit.


Yeah, that's what I'm thinking


If youre able to take each lighting point feed back to the switch, do.
Then as and when you can put a switchbank in, which is a real
improvment over a single switch.


Annoyingly (_another_ annoying thing...), the switch for the kitchen
light is on a pull-cord, which also I don't want to hack with too much.

I think I've seen double-cord pull switches; any links to such a thing?

Thanks
Jon N

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Owain wrote in
:


TLC have them - the sort that look like a shallow upside-down
cut-glass fruit-bowl.

I did see *them*, but I wouldn't have one on my kitchen ceiling: mine is
much more utilitarian without being too butt-ugly (like they are!)

I bought mine from B&Q a few years back, but I can't find any like it now.

One problem with it is the inverted plastic diffuser thingy fills to the
brim with dead insects, and after a year or two it makes me look a bit of a
slut )

mike
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"jkn" wrote in
oups.com:


I'm now, after this thread, thinking of keeping the current
centre-of-room cable, and fit some sort of directional multi-bulb
fitting, as well as the top-of-cupboard lighting.

I think the problem with this is the same as the circular fitting - and I
must say for lighting efficiency rather than ugliness, IMO a long tube is
better, as it's a much more diffuse source - perhaps you could find a nice
fitting and diffuser.

You will prolly be standing in your own light at the worksurfaces, unless
you can craftily direct the individual lights to get round you

mike
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Frank Erskine wrote:

I remember a linear fluorescent fitting, made by Atlas I think, which
had a filament ballast lamp in a slotted red metal housing at one end.
The lamp had four pins, ISTR.


My Uncle George and Auntie Olive had one of those in their kitchen.
Late 1950s, I reckon...

--
Andy
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jkn wrote:

... I just want something cheap and cheerful on this occasion.


And you mentioned "de-luxe fluorescents" earlier. Have you thought
about using the type of surface fluorescent fitting which incorporates
mirrors and louvres - the sort of thing you can see here
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Elec...ng/d190/sd2768
- fourth item down the page: "Cat 2 Surface Mount Luminaire." These are
very effective in reducing the glare associated with a naked flu' tubes.
I'd go for an electronically ballasted one with triphosphor tube(s)
though, rather then the switchstart thing shown.

--
Andy


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The message
from Andy Wade contains these words:

My Uncle George and Auntie Olive had one of those in their kitchen.
Late 1950s, I reckon...


Ain't it worrying when you see things you grew up with appearing in museums?

Worst place for this is http://www.lolc.org.uk/

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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jkn wrote:

Hi Andrew

[...]
eventually. So given that the current Centre lamp is a 65W 5 foot
strip, what sort of uplighting wattage should I be thinking of?


You should paint the ceiling matt white (titainuim dioxide) for
maximum reflection and diffusion. Also make sure tops of cupboards
are white (doesn't need to be matt). You will need more power
because of losses at non-perfect reflective surfaces.
What is the length of the cupboard run?


about 2m. Do you use reflectors on the indirect lights, or just allow
the light to bounce around?

Are you thinking of any other lighting in the room, such as
under cupboard, down lighters or uplighters on the other side
of the room, etc?


I'm now, after this thread, thinking of keeping the current
centre-of-room cable, and fit some sort of directional multi-bulb
fitting, as well as the top-of-cupboard lighting.


you could, but a diffuse tube behind wood sheet is likely to give more
even illumination. Also central sideways pointing reflectors are going
to be murder on the eyes.


What height of object is the largest you can stand on the top
of the cupboard at the back, and yet it not be visible when you
are standing at the other side of the room?


about four inches - I can just see the top of the extractor hood pipe.
There is about another six inches of clearance above that.


plenty of space for cfls. I wouldnt use linear fl there as the output
per foot is too high.


Would you drill through the joists to carry the cable across or is
there a neater/easier way in this instance?


you have to drill them, preferably at about the joist centre
heightwise. The only type of lighting where you can avoid that is 12v
lighting, with that you can use enamelled copper wire and just run it
across the surface of the joists, holding it temporarily with tape and
reboard straight onto it. But I wouldnt recommend 12v lighting at all.


NT

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Default Options for simple Kitchen Fluorescent light upgrade?

Hi Andy

... I just want something cheap and cheerful on this occasion.


And you mentioned "de-luxe fluorescents" earlier.


It's a balance between allowing the work to be done now, and allowing
flexibility for fitment selection at leisure later...

Have you thought
about using the type of surface fluorescent fitting which incorporates
mirrors and louvres - the sort of thing you can see here
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Elec...ng/d190/sd2768
- fourth item down the page: "Cat 2 Surface Mount Luminaire." These are
very effective in reducing the glare associated with a naked flu' tubes.
I'd go for an electronically ballasted one with triphosphor tube(s)
though, rather then the switchstart thing shown.


That's a useful link and comments, thanks. At first sight they are a
bit bulky, but I know how you forget about these things in time.

Cheers
Jon N

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In article .com,
"jkn" writes:
Hi Andrew

[...]
eventually. So given that the current Centre lamp is a 65W 5 foot
strip, what sort of uplighting wattage should I be thinking of?


You should paint the ceiling matt white (titainuim dioxide) for
maximum reflection and diffusion. Also make sure tops of cupboards
are white (doesn't need to be matt). You will need more power
because of losses at non-perfect reflective surfaces.
What is the length of the cupboard run?


about 2m. Do you use reflectors on the indirect lights, or just allow
the light to bounce around?


Reflectors would be good, but difficult to find. There used to
be a scrap metal yard near me and they had loads of off-cuts
from a lighting manufacturer with highly reflective aluminimum
alloy plain and specular reflector sheets, but sadly they closed
down. On one occation, I had a pile of mirror tiles I had taken
off the wall, and I put those along the top of the cupboard in
front of the lamp. It doesn't make a lot of difference. If you
had a lot of space between the cupboard and ceiling, I might
suggest using perimeter wall washers on their sides so they
wash the ceiling instead (with light), but 10" isn't enough
far enough away for a perimeter wall washer to reach far out
along the ceiling -- you'll do better with a bare tube.
(Perimeter wall washers are the lights you'll find in shops
recessed in the ceiling about 2' in front of wall displays.
You might not even think they are on, as they have virtually
no light spill behind them because the reflectors accurately
direct all the light towards the display wall.)

Are you thinking of any other lighting in the room, such as
under cupboard, down lighters or uplighters on the other side
of the room, etc?


I'm now, after this thread, thinking of keeping the current
centre-of-room cable, and fit some sort of directional multi-bulb
fitting, as well as the top-of-cupboard lighting.


The trouble with that is that wherever you are working around
the room, you will be working in your own shadow. That's why I
say a central light in a kitchen is not functional (unless you
have something directly below it to illuminate), but it might
be decorative. Think about taking a second feed from the
centre point to the other side of the room.

What height of object is the largest you can stand on the top
of the cupboard at the back, and yet it not be visible when you
are standing at the other side of the room?


about four inches - I can just see the top of the extractor hood pipe.
There is about another six inches of clearance above that.


I would suggest you use your existing fluorescent fitting to
experiment. If the fluorescent fitting is some 2 - 2½" wide
(remove any diffuser so the bare tube is exposed), you could
put it on top of the cupboard on its side with the tube facing
the room, and it will be invisible. You could even bring it
forward to half the cupboard depth and it should still be
invisible in the room. This will also give you a good idea
where dark areas may exist in the room. Expect the room to
be darker than it was as I said earlier. You could improve
this by using a 6' fitting (if it fits), but I think you'd do
better to supplement with local under cupboard lighting and/or
a light on the other side of the room as I suggested earlier.
Also, a freshly painted ceiling will help a lot when it's
been plastered.

Would you drill through the joists to carry the cable across or is


Yes. Don't make the holes too big (a lighting cable will
go through a 10 or 12mm hole), and position them roughly
centrally between the top and bottom of the beam.

I would suggest you terminate the cable with a Klik S26
architrave socket on the wall just above the cupboard top.
You can pick these up from a local electrical wholesaler,
with a matching P22 plug, and use a short flex to connect
it to the light on the cupboard.

--
Andrew Gabriel


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jkn wrote:
Hi all
Thanks for all your suggestions on this. I thought I'd give you an
update. After going through all of this, and taking the current light
fitting & pullswitch off in preaparation, it was determined by SWMBO
that substantive changes were not going to be made ;-/. I can
understand it actually, there's a lot of domestic upheaval at the
moment and it might have been one straw too many.

So the plasterer is here to basically just reboard the ceiling and skim
it. Somewhat disappointingly, in the course of this it's become
apparent that drilling through one joist only would have been necessary
to have run the extra cabling. The clincher was probably the seeming
lack of double-cord pullswitches. If I'd wanted to change things in
this area I'd have needed to start a bit earlier


to implement your plan later rather than now, all you need do now is
run a not-connected-to-anything cable from the existing pull switch to
your new location above the cupboards, drilling the one joist hole to
route it, taping over the cable end in the switch box, and either
poking it thru the PB above the cupboard, or marking with pencil
exactly where it lies above the PB. For now it does nothing, but later
you can add a 2nd pull switch next to the one there now, fit a light
or socket at the other end, and connect both ends up. Its a simple
thing to do and opens up the best of both worlds, a quick job now and
the expansion option later.


So what I *will* do is see about getting a rather better fluorescent
fitting to replace the current one. Maybe a 'luminaire' like Andy Wade
suggested, or at least I'll investigate these triphospher tubes,
electronic ballast etc.


electronic ballast gives no starting flash and better efficiency,
recommended. Triphosphor tubes I'm not sure theyre so valuable, 3500K
halophosphate are good quality for domestic use. Not all halophosphates
are so good, theyre a variable lot, but 3500K is about as good as they
get for domestic use.


A slight followup - are there benefits to having a two-tube fitting, I
guess in terms of even light distribution etc?


none at all.


NT

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