On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:50 +0000 (UTC), NC wrote:

All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit attached
to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the design of the flat
precludes passing it through the walls. It is safe / allowed for me to use
chromed copper pipe for this instead as it will look a lot nicer and fit in
better with the other pipes in the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....

My immediate thoughts would be that as long as the pipes were properly
bonded there isn't too much of a problem. What always bothers me about
these types of arrangements, however, is that at some time in the dim
and distant future, when you no longer own or rent the flat, someone
will come along and think that it's a water pipe running along the top
of the skirting and merrily cut into a live cable.

Reminds me a bit about a quite elderly edition of GroundFarce, where
Charlie 'Nipples' Dimmock was feeding a section of cable for a water
feature through some scrap gas service pipe under a path. I complained
at the time to the Beeb, but never heard any more about it.

Wanderer wrote:
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:50 +0000 (UTC), NC wrote:

All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit
attached to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the
design of the flat precludes passing it through the walls. It is
safe / allowed for me to use chromed copper pipe for this instead as
it will look a lot nicer and fit in better with the other pipes in
the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....

My immediate thoughts would be that as long as the pipes were properly
bonded there isn't too much of a problem. What always bothers me about
these types of arrangements, however, is that at some time in the dim
and distant future, when you no longer own or rent the flat, someone
will come along and think that it's a water pipe running along the top
of the skirting and merrily cut into a live cable.

Reminds me a bit about a quite elderly edition of GroundFarce, where
Charlie 'Nipples' Dimmock was feeding a section of cable for a water
feature through some scrap gas service pipe under a path. I complained
at the time to the Beeb, but never heard any more about it.

Good point - we have just bought the flat and will be in there for a few
years - I will ensure I label it somehow to ensure that I / next person
knows whats in it !!
Thanks

In article , NC neil.catley@NOSPAMPLE
ASETHANKYOU.?.com writes
Wanderer wrote:
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:50 +0000 (UTC), NC wrote:

All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit
attached to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the
design of the flat precludes passing it through the walls. It is
safe / allowed for me to use chromed copper pipe for this instead as
it will look a lot nicer and fit in better with the other pipes in
the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....

My immediate thoughts would be that as long as the pipes were properly
bonded there isn't too much of a problem. What always bothers me about
these types of arrangements, however, is that at some time in the dim
and distant future, when you no longer own or rent the flat, someone
will come along and think that it's a water pipe running along the top
of the skirting and merrily cut into a live cable.

Reminds me a bit about a quite elderly edition of GroundFarce, where
Charlie 'Nipples' Dimmock was feeding a section of cable for a water
feature through some scrap gas service pipe under a path. I complained
at the time to the Beeb, but never heard any more about it.

Good point - we have just bought the flat and will be in there for a few
years - I will ensure I label it somehow to ensure that I / next person
knows whats in it !!
Thanks
It's not something I would do myself, an accident waiting to happen, but if
you _must_ then I suggest drilling a small/medium sized hole in the pipe in
an obvious but unobtrusive position to give the next owner a chance to see
that it couldn't possibly be a water pipe.
--
fred

A good plan.. but then you have to hope they see it, and you've then not got
a waterproof cable-feed... ??

In article ,
"NC" writes:
All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit attached
to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the design of the flat
precludes passing it through the walls. It is safe / allowed for me to use
chromed copper pipe for this instead as it will look a lot nicer and fit in
better with the other pipes in the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....

It used not to be allowed to use exposed metal truncking,
but that restriction seems to have gone from the 2001 regs.
Obviously, it will have to be bonded.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"NC" writes:
All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit
attached to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the
design of the flat precludes passing it through the walls. It is
safe / allowed for me to use chromed copper pipe for this instead as
it will look a lot nicer and fit in better with the other pipes in
the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....

It used not to be allowed to use exposed metal truncking,
but that restriction seems to have gone from the 2001 regs.
Obviously, it will have to be bonded.

excuse my ignorance - but what do you mean by 'bonded' ?? earthed ??

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) writes:

It used not to be allowed to use exposed metal truncking,

or trunking even ...


We knew what you meant. :-))


but that restriction seems to have gone from the 2001 regs.
Obviously, it will have to be bonded.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"NC" wrote in message ...
A good plan.. but then you have to hope they see it, and you've then not got
a waterproof cable-feed... ??

Hey, it could be worse. For a moment I was half wondering if the
copper pipe was going to be the one that carried the water to the
shower as well!


Regards, NT

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:06:03 +0000 (UTC), "NC"
wrote:

excuse my ignorance - but what do you mean by 'bonded' ?? earthed ??

Bonding is like earthing, but without the earth !

All metal parts (pipes, shower rails, bathtubs) are connected together
with green & yellow, and this is connected to the earth terminal of
the supply to the room. There is no need to run a separate earth
connector for this metalwork, back to any centralised earth. Nor does
this bonding conductor need to be as large as many earth conductors
do.

The difference between bonding (or equipotential bonding) and earthing
is in what they're trying to achieve.

Earthing is there so that when a live-case fault develops, enough
current flows through the earth terminal to blow the fuse or breaker
supplying the equipment. Impedances must be low, or there won't be
enough current to blow the fuse - which is why it's important to test
earth loop impedance, not just rely on a neon tester.

Equipotential bonding is there so that no two metal objects can
develop a high voltage across them. This is typical from a high
impedance fault condition - maybe a heater with failing insulation,
not enough to cause an earth fault, but still enough to make the case
give you a shock. Humans are normally high impedance, so won't suffer
such shocks - but wet humans are much more conductive, so bonding
becomes especially important in bathrooms.

fred wrote:
In article , NC neil.catley@NOSPAMPLE
ASETHANKYOU.?.com writes

Wanderer wrote:

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:50 +0000 (UTC), NC wrote:


All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit
attached to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the
design of the flat precludes passing it through the walls. It is
safe / allowed for me to use chromed copper pipe for this instead as
it will look a lot nicer and fit in better with the other pipes in
the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....



It's not something I would do myself, an accident waiting to happen, but if
you _must_ then I suggest drilling a small/medium sized hole in the pipe in
an obvious but unobtrusive position to give the next owner a chance to see
that it couldn't possibly be a water pipe.

If you say "Shiny metal conduit" instead of "pipe" it should make you
feel better.

Steve

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

Equipotential bonding is there so that no two metal objects can
develop a high voltage across them. This is typical from a high
impedance fault condition - maybe a heater with failing insulation,
not enough to cause an earth fault, but still enough to make the case
give you a shock. Humans are normally high impedance, so won't suffer
such shocks - but wet humans are much more conductive, so bonding
becomes especially important in bathrooms.

or to look at it another way....
(a)even more paths for across the chest shocks
(b)more things that can become live

you are not allowed bare protective conductors
but you can have acres of bonded metal

where I work bonding causes more problems than it solves
because it just increases the chance of electrucution

Isolation, insulation & electronic protection !

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:49:41 +0100, Chris Oates wrote:


"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

Equipotential bonding is there so that no two metal objects can
develop a high voltage across them. This is typical from a high
impedance fault condition - maybe a heater with failing insulation,
not enough to cause an earth fault, but still enough to make the case
give you a shock. Humans are normally high impedance, so won't suffer
such shocks - but wet humans are much more conductive, so bonding
becomes especially important in bathrooms.

or to look at it another way....
(a)even more paths for across the chest shocks
(b)more things that can become live

you are not allowed bare protective conductors
but you can have acres of bonded metal

where I work bonding causes more problems than it solves
because it just increases the chance of electrucution

Err, are you suggesting that the Faraday Cage doesn't work? So how come
most leccy companies now do so much 'hands on' live working?

Wanderer wrote in message ...
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:49:41 +0100, Chris Oates wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

Equipotential bonding is there so that no two metal objects can
develop a high voltage across them. This is typical from a high
impedance fault condition - maybe a heater with failing insulation,
not enough to cause an earth fault, but still enough to make the case
give you a shock. Humans are normally high impedance, so won't suffer
such shocks - but wet humans are much more conductive, so bonding
becomes especially important in bathrooms.

or to look at it another way....
(a)even more paths for across the chest shocks
(b)more things that can become live

you are not allowed bare protective conductors
but you can have acres of bonded metal

where I work bonding causes more problems than it solves
because it just increases the chance of electrucution


Err, are you suggesting that the Faraday Cage doesn't work? So how come
most leccy companies now do so much 'hands on' live working?


Hi.

A bathroom is not really like a faraday cage, since it has mains in
there that is not at the 'cage' potential. Its more like an earthed
cage with wired appliances in it, which occasionally become live.

2 issues with equipotential earthed bonding a

a) a shock from light fitting to bonded metalwork is worse than a
shock from light to unbonded metalwork
and
b) should there be a fault with the earth feed lots of metal will
become live instead of a little.

Those points dont make it bad, but they do make it less great than it
first looks.



But I would look at equipotential bonding from another point of
view...

How many lives has it saved? Our of 50 deaths per year from
electrocution in the UK, how many of those were bathroom
electrocutions? And how many of those would have been saved by
equipotential bonding?

Now, whats the cost of equipotentially bonding the nations bathrooms?
How much per life is that?

Now, people die en masse due to their own ignorance, eg due to stupid
eating habits. How much would a food education campaign cost? How many
lives would it save? How much per life is that? How many times the
number of lives would be saved with the same amount of money?


Regards, NT

On 6 Sep 2003 05:31:44 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

Now, whats the cost of equipotentially bonding the nations bathrooms?

A campaign to bond all the nation's bathrooms tomorrow "For The Sake
Of The Children (tm)" would be expensive.

But a better standard that all new work should comply with, is a much
lower incremental cost.

On 5 Sep 2003 08:19:43 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

Hey, it could be worse. For a moment I was half wondering if the
copper pipe was going to be the one that carried the water to the
shower as well!



Isn't that how Aqualisa's Quartz shower works?

Neil

On 6 Sep 2003 05:31:44 -0700, N. Thornton wrote:

Wanderer wrote in message ...

snip


Err, are you suggesting that the Faraday Cage doesn't work? So how come
most leccy companies now do so much 'hands on' live working?

A bathroom is not really like a faraday cage, since it has mains in
there that is not at the 'cage' potential. Its more like an earthed
cage with wired appliances in it, which occasionally become live.

Occasionally? I hope not.

2 issues with equipotential earthed bonding a

a) a shock from light fitting to bonded metalwork is worse than a
shock from light to unbonded metalwork
and
b) should there be a fault with the earth feed lots of metal will
become live instead of a little.

Those points dont make it bad, but they do make it less great than it
first looks.

So you're suggesting that PME is not worth bothering with? May I
respectfully suggest that you need to go away and quietly reflect on
just what it is you're saying.

*If* an appliance or wiring installation develops an earth fault then
the various safety measures *should* act to isolate that fault.

If they don't, then the whole fabric of the building rises to some
voltage above zero with respect to earth, coz the leccy companies
connect the neutral of the distribution system to earth at the
transformer. Because you in your dripping wet state are safely contained
within a Faraday cage, formed by the equipotential crossbonding of the
installation, the risk of electric shock is minimised, because you are
at the same voltage as everything around you.

But I would look at equipotential bonding from another point of
view...

Please don't.

Another comprimise perhaps?
Place shower cable inside flat or round plastic mini trunking
and slide that in the shiny/chrome pipe.
The copper conductors are then triple insulated.

Steve wrote in message .. .
fred wrote:
In article , NC neil.catley@NOSPAMPLE
ASETHANKYOU.?.com writes

Wanderer wrote:

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:50 +0000 (UTC), NC wrote:


All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit
attached to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the
design of the flat precludes passing it through the walls. It is
safe / allowed for me to use chromed copper pipe for this instead as
it will look a lot nicer and fit in better with the other pipes in
the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....



It's not something I would do myself, an accident waiting to happen, but if
you _must_ then I suggest drilling a small/medium sized hole in the pipe in
an obvious but unobtrusive position to give the next owner a chance to see
that it couldn't possibly be a water pipe.

If you say "Shiny metal conduit" instead of "pipe" it should make you
feel better.

Steve

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:52:45 +0000 (UTC), "NC"
wrote:

A good plan.. but then you have to hope they see it, and you've then not got
a waterproof cable-feed... ??


Or ,seeing the hole in the pipe,they might think it is an unused water
pipe and STILL cut in to it .
maybe better putting some of that hazard tape round it with suitable
labelling warning of what lies within !!!
Stuart
---------

Remove YOURPANTS before E-mailing Me

Wanderer wrote in message . ..
On 6 Sep 2003 05:31:44 -0700, N. Thornton wrote:
snip

Err, are you suggesting that the Faraday Cage doesn't work? So how come
most leccy companies now do so much 'hands on' live working?

A bathroom is not really like a faraday cage, since it has mains in
there that is not at the 'cage' potential. Its more like an earthed
cage with wired appliances in it, which occasionally become live.

Occasionally? I hope not.

Of course it does, faults happen, thats why aditional safety measures
are needed.


2 issues with equipotential earthed bonding a

a) a shock from light fitting to bonded metalwork is worse than a
shock from light to unbonded metalwork
and
b) should there be a fault with the earth feed lots of metal will
become live instead of a little.

Those points dont make it bad, but they do make it less great than it
first looks.

So you're suggesting that PME is not worth bothering with?

No, I haven't criticised PME.

May I
respectfully suggest that you need to go away and quietly reflect on
just what it is you're saying.

*If* an appliance or wiring installation develops an earth fault then
the various safety measures *should* act to isolate that fault.

Indeed, they shuold. Domestic wiring regs also cover situations where
safety measures dont resolve the problem, due to the protection
measures being faulty. Multiple protections is the approach.


If they don't, then the whole fabric of the building rises to some
voltage above zero with respect to earth,

No it doesnt, if an appliance develops an earth fault you may be
shocked by current passing from appliance case to concrete floor,
metal door frame on damp bricks, etc.


coz the leccy companies
connect the neutral of the distribution system to earth at the
transformer.

Right, but even a live 'earth' feed wont make the whole fabric of a
building live, it would introduce numerous potential electrocution
situations within the building.


Because you in your dripping wet state are safely contained
within a Faraday cage, formed by the equipotential crossbonding of the
installation, the risk of electric shock is minimised, because you are
at the same voltage as everything around you.

You seem to be forgetting that faulty light fitting above you as you
get out of the bath.


But I would look at equipotential bonding from another point of
view...

Please don't.

Pretty significant point.


Regards, NT

In article , Steve
writes
fred wrote:
In article , NC neil.catley@NOSPAMPLE
ASETHANKYOU.?.com writes

Wanderer wrote:

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:50 +0000 (UTC), NC wrote:


All,
I currently have cable running to my shower through sealed conduit
attached to the top of the skirting board in the bathrooom - the
design of the flat precludes passing it through the walls. It is
safe / allowed for me to use chromed copper pipe for this instead as
it will look a lot nicer and fit in better with the other pipes in
the room ?? Safety etc says it may not be....



It's not something I would do myself, an accident waiting to happen, but if
you _must_ then I suggest drilling a small/medium sized hole in the pipe in
an obvious but unobtrusive position to give the next owner a chance to see
that it couldn't possibly be a water pipe.

If you say "Shiny metal conduit" instead of "pipe" it should make you
feel better.

Steve
LOL

Yeah, know where you're coming from, but I see a 'pipe' I turn off the water,
I see a 'conduit' I turn off the power :-)
--
fred