Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask anyway.
I will be moving to a house that has no central heating (apart from warm air
which I will be taking out).
What I was needing to know is, What is a decent make of boiler these days? I
was thinking along the lines of Potterton/Ideal/Glow worm?
I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi, for
a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.
Any clue to a good make/model/range to start looking at. I think I would be
prepared to spend about £1000 for a good reliable boiler.
Regards, Will

Willi said

Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask anyway.
I will be moving to a house that has no central heating (apart from
warm air which I will be taking out). What I was needing to know is,
What is a decent make of boiler these days? I was thinking along the
lines of Potterton/Ideal/Glow worm? I will be looking for wall hung,
condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi, for a 4 bedroom house. vented
fully pumped system. Any clue to a good make/model/range to start
looking at. I think I would be prepared to spend about #1000 for a
good reliable boiler. Regards, Will

Under the sales of goods act I would suggest that any fridge should
last 6 years at least. So I would expect the same from boilers.
So as a corgi tradesman has to put it in I would buy it off him and
blaim him if it goes wrong.

--
zaax

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 01:09:58 +0100, zaax wrote
(in article ):

Willi said

Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask anyway.
I will be moving to a house that has no central heating (apart from
warm air which I will be taking out). What I was needing to know is,
What is a decent make of boiler these days? I was thinking along the
lines of Potterton/Ideal/Glow worm? I will be looking for wall hung,
condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi, for a 4 bedroom house. vented
fully pumped system. Any clue to a good make/model/range to start
looking at. I think I would be prepared to spend about #1000 for a
good reliable boiler. Regards, Will

Under the sales of goods act I would suggest that any fridge should
last 6 years at least. So I would expect the same from boilers.
So as a corgi tradesman has to put it in I would buy it off him and
blaim him if it goes wrong.



The Sale of Goods Act does not say that an item should last for 6 years.

There is a statutory period of 6 years (statute of limitations) for recourse
to the supplier if there is a problem with goods or services purchased. It
does not guarantee in any way that the supplier will do anything about it.
For that purpose, if it eventually becomes a court matter, a test of
reasonableness will be applied.

Andy Hall said

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 01:09:58 +0100, zaax wrote
(in article ):

Willi said

Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask
anyway. I will be moving to a house that has no central heating
(apart from warm air which I will be taking out). What I was
needing to know is, What is a decent make of boiler these days? I
was thinking along the lines of Potterton/Ideal/Glow worm? I will
be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system. Any clue to a
good make/model/range to start looking at. I think I would be
prepared to spend about #1000 for a good reliable boiler.
Regards, Will

Under the sales of goods act I would suggest that any fridge should
last 6 years at least. So I would expect the same from boilers.
So as a corgi tradesman has to put it in I would buy it off him and
blaim him if it goes wrong.



The Sale of Goods Act does not say that an item should last for 6
years.

There is a statutory period of 6 years (statute of limitations) for
recourse to the supplier if there is a problem with goods or services
purchased. It does not guarantee in any way that the supplier will
do anything about it. For that purpose, if it eventually becomes a
court matter, a test of reasonableness will be applied.

Recourse to the seller.

I would suggest that it would be reasonable for a professionally
installed system to last at six years.

--
zaax

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 20:08:17 +0100, zaax wrote
(in article ):

Andy Hall said

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 01:09:58 +0100, zaax wrote
(in article ):

Willi said

Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask
anyway. I will be moving to a house that has no central heating
(apart from warm air which I will be taking out). What I was
needing to know is, What is a decent make of boiler these days? I
was thinking along the lines of Potterton/Ideal/Glow worm? I will
be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system. Any clue to a
good make/model/range to start looking at. I think I would be
prepared to spend about #1000 for a good reliable boiler.
Regards, Will

Under the sales of goods act I would suggest that any fridge should
last 6 years at least. So I would expect the same from boilers.
So as a corgi tradesman has to put it in I would buy it off him and
blaim him if it goes wrong.



The Sale of Goods Act does not say that an item should last for 6
years.

There is a statutory period of 6 years (statute of limitations) for
recourse to the supplier if there is a problem with goods or services
purchased. It does not guarantee in any way that the supplier will
do anything about it. For that purpose, if it eventually becomes a
court matter, a test of reasonableness will be applied.

Recourse to the seller.

I would suggest that it would be reasonable for a professionally
installed system to last at six years.



That would depend on the product installed and the price paid.

If I had paid top whack for a Viessmann boiler, high quality installation and
so forth then I would go for every pound of flesh if it came to it.
I would be likely to prevail in any litigation because the manufacturer and
supplier would have little argument that this wasn't a top of the market
purchase
However, given that purchasing decision, it is unlikely that the situation
would arise, or that there would be enough margin in the deal that the
installer and the manufacturer could provide proper customer service.

OTOH, if I buy a Ravenheat and cheapest possible install then I would be less
confident of the outcome because a reasonableness test would position the
outlay a lot lower.

Another way of looking at it is insurance. In the mid range people do buy
insurance,. On a pure cost basis it makes no sense and they will pay way
over the odds over the product life. However, if the objective is to avoid
dealing with problems and the cost of so doing is high, the economics change.

Personally I find that the best outcome doesn't come from buying on capital
price paid but on negotiating the best customer service for the price paid.
This roughly translates to not beating down to the lowest price but in
response expecting that the supplier does what they say they will do. Then
if they don't, the 16 ton weight descends. It is very difficult for a
supplier to defend a situation of doing less than they agreed at the outset.

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:10:41 +0100, Willi wrote:

Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask anyway.
I will be moving to a house that has no central heating (apart from warm air
which I will be taking out).
What I was needing to know is, What is a decent make of boiler these days? I
was thinking along the lines of Potterton/Ideal/Glow worm?
I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi, for
a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.
Any clue to a good make/model/range to start looking at. I think I would be
prepared to spend about £1000 for a good reliable boiler.
Regards, Will

Worcester-Bosch & Vaillant have good reputations for reasonably-priced
kit

Gloworm & Ideal may also be OK

Potterton/Baxi have ground to make up on their reputation from past
products (and the way they've handled problems with them) so, other
things being equal, I'd avoid them.

For general criteria see Ed's boiler choice FAQ

On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 23:57:39 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:10:41 +0100, Willi wrote:

Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask anyway.
I will be moving to a house that has no central heating (apart from warm air
which I will be taking out).
What I was needing to know is, What is a decent make of boiler these days? I
was thinking along the lines of Potterton/Ideal/Glow worm?
I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi, for
a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.
Any clue to a good make/model/range to start looking at. I think I would be
prepared to spend about £1000 for a good reliable boiler.
Regards, Will

Worcester-Bosch & Vaillant have good reputations for reasonably-priced
kit

Gloworm & Ideal may also be OK

Potterton/Baxi have ground to make up on their reputation from past
products (and the way they've handled problems with them) so, other
things being equal, I'd avoid them.

For general criteria see Ed's boiler choice FAQ

I note that Baxi who swallowed MAIN some while ago are now badging the
boiler as MAIN. The product is identical (AFAICT) to a Potterton model.
I guess they may eventually run out of reputable names.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes

Worcester-Bosch & Vaillant have good reputations for reasonably-priced
kit

Gloworm & Ideal may also be OK

Potterton/Baxi have ground to make up on their reputation from past
products (and the way they've handled problems with them) so, other
things being equal, I'd avoid them.

For general criteria see Ed's boiler choice FAQ

I note that Baxi who swallowed MAIN some while ago are now badging the
boiler as MAIN. The product is identical (AFAICT) to a Potterton model.
I guess they may eventually run out of reputable names.

The British Leyland syndrome ...

--
geoff

The message
from raden contains these words:

I note that Baxi who swallowed MAIN some while ago are now badging the
boiler as MAIN. The product is identical (AFAICT) to a Potterton model.
I guess they may eventually run out of reputable names.

The British Leyland syndrome ...

Hmm, Windscale - Seascale - what's next?

DSS, DHSS, DWP -

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Guy King wrote:

DSS, DHSS, DWP -

Wrong order: the DHSS became the DSS when someone realised it wasn't
very healthy. Similarly the EEC became the EC when it dawned that it
wasn't all that economical...

--
Andy

"Willi" wrote in message
...
Hello
This is probably an imposable question to answer, but I'll ask anyway.
I will be moving to a house that has no central heating (apart from warm
air which I will be taking out).

Wrong move. Johnson & Starley have some superb replacement forced air units
with electrostatic air filters, modulating burners and fans and very quiet.
They also cool by moving air in summer. And no rads. You can also add
outside air ventilation too.

What I was needing to know is, What is a decent make of boiler these days?
I was thinking along the lines of Potterton/Ideal/

Bad boilers.

Glow worm?

The condenser is good, made by Vaillant.

I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

......are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Any clue to a good make/model/range to start looking at. I think I would
be prepared to spend about £1000 for a good reliable boiler.
Regards, Will

Spend more. Viessmann, Eco-Hometec, Atmos, Etag, Quantum and Geminox.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
For general criteria see Ed's boiler choice FAQ

Avoid that. It is 20 years out of date.

I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather have a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

In article ,
Willi wrote:
.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that?

He hails from the planet Zog where only combis are allowed and the bath
hasn't been invented.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, try management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Willi" wrote in message
...

I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that?

It is not 1972 anymore.

Are you saying you would rather have a Combi?

Yep. They can deliver high flows and no cylinders or water tanks.

I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).

They are good and you don't consider? Sounds Irish. Oh That is racist, so
sounds err, well any race you don't like. Do you wear flared pants as well?

What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is
not required,

Yep.

but what are the others?

No cold tank.
Less pipe work.
Mains pressure showers, so no silly power shower pump.
You never run out hot water.
Can stay in the shower for ever.
Equal pressure at all taps, so mixers can be easily installed everywhere.
Instant hot water at all times.
etc,
etc,

I am not a jolly amateur. Come back if you have any more queries.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Willi wrote:

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that?

He

It's a shame isn't it. Care in the community has failed.

I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that?

It is not 1972 anymore.

Are you saying you would rather have a Combi?

Yep. They can deliver high flows and no cylinders or water tanks.

I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).

They are good and you don't consider? Sounds Irish. Oh That is racist, so
sounds err, well any race you don't like. Do you wear flared pants as
well?

What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is
not required,

Yep.

but what are the others?

No cold tank.
Less pipe work.
Mains pressure showers, so no silly power shower pump.
You never run out hot water.
Can stay in the shower for ever.
Equal pressure at all taps, so mixers can be easily installed everywhere.
Instant hot water at all times.
etc,
etc,

I am not a jolly amateur. Come back if you have any more queries.

Sounds intresting.
With regards to this bit "Mains pressure showers, so no silly power shower
pump"

How does the system hold up, when someone is having a shower, the heating is
on & maybe someone is running the hot tap in the kitchen. This is all
hypertheticail of course. I'm just trying to think of the hardest thing the
system would have to do (or be asked to do). Or put simply. "Would it cope"
?
Regards, Will

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Are you saying you would rather have a Combi?

Yep. They can deliver high flows and no cylinders or water tanks.

The 'high flow' is in relation to other combis. Not in comparison to even
the most weedy of storage systems. Unless, of course, you intend spending
about 5000 quid on a combi and installation.

--
*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Willi wrote:
How does the system hold up, when someone is having a shower, the
heating is on & maybe someone is running the hot tap in the kitchen.
This is all hypertheticail of course. I'm just trying to think of the
hardest thing the system would have to do (or be asked to do). Or put
simply. "Would it cope"

Dribble conveniently forgets that many parts of the country have rather
poor mains water pressure in an attempt to reduce leaks.

Best thing is to measure the flow at the kitchen tap and ask again. Time
how long it takes to fill say a 10 litre container. However, if all water
comes from the mains it's not just a second hot tap that will effect the
flow, but cold water ones too.

--
*Be more or less specific *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:32:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

No cold tank.

So what, cold tanks are a useful reserve when some prat floods out the
neighbourhood by the misuse of a junior hacksaw.

Less pipe work.

Not really, in most houses it amounts to a couple of metres of 22mm to
the coil, 3 metres of mains pressure 15mm cold feed and about 3 metres
of 22mm for the hot tank feed. 30 minutes installation at the most.

Mains pressure showers, so no silly power shower pump.

As long as you like lukewarm/scalding/freezing/lukewarm repeat ad
infinitum showers

You never run out hot water.

Probably because you don't have any in the first place

Can stay in the shower for ever.

Some people wish you would

Equal pressure at all taps, so mixers can be easily installed everywhere.

Mixer taps are the spawn of the devil, liked by the French who never
use taps (and stink) and the Germans who could make a tap last 1000
years that would be incapable of filling a bath in less than 999 years

Instant hot water at all times.

Instant lukewarm dribble is more correct.

I am not a jolly amateur.

No, you are a failed plumbing counter assistant who flooded out 3
London boroughs because of a incident with a junior hacksaw.


--

"Willi" wrote in message
...


I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that?

It is not 1972 anymore.

Are you saying you would rather have a Combi?

Yep. They can deliver high flows and no cylinders or water tanks.

I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).

They are good and you don't consider? Sounds Irish. Oh That is racist,
so sounds err, well any race you don't like. Do you wear flared pants as
well?

What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is
not required,

Yep.

but what are the others?

No cold tank.
Less pipe work.
Mains pressure showers, so no silly power shower pump.
You never run out hot water.
Can stay in the shower for ever.
Equal pressure at all taps, so mixers can be easily installed everywhere.
Instant hot water at all times.
etc,
etc,

I am not a jolly amateur. Come back if you have any more queries.

Sounds intresting.
With regards to this bit "Mains pressure showers, so no silly power shower
pump"

How does the system hold up, when someone is having a shower, the heating
is on & maybe someone is running the hot tap in the kitchen. This is all
hypertheticail of course. I'm just trying to think of the hardest thing
the system would have to do (or be asked to do). Or put simply. "Would it
cope" ?

Firstly, like any mains pressure system, the mains have to give pressure and
flow. This needs to be measured but timing bucket fro the kitchen tap, in
litres per minute.

If the mains are poor it is well worth getting it replaced to a larger bore.
Once done it is done for ever.

A dedicated 22mm pipe is taken from the stoptap to the combi inlet. A tee at
the stop and then all cold outlets from this. Once a decent mains pressure
and, piped properly then no problems.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Willi wrote:
How does the system hold up, when someone is having a shower, the
heating is on & maybe someone is running the hot tap in the kitchen.
This is all hypertheticail of course. I'm just trying to think of the
hardest thing the system would have to do (or be asked to do). Or put
simply. "Would it cope"

D

Must be bed time for him.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Are you saying you would rather have a Combi?

Yep. They can deliver high flows and no cylinders or water tanks.

The 'high flow'

A shame isn't it. He put high pressure taps in on a low pressure system.
Sad isn't it.

"Matt" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:32:06 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

No cold tank.

So what, cold tanks are a useful reserve

Matt, I have not had a water cut for countless years - oh one for 10
minutes.

cut Matt drivel

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:45:00 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net):



If the mains are poor it is well worth getting it replaced to a larger bore.
Once done it is done for ever.


However, check the cost. I was quoted £3k for this and then it would have
taken a further £2k to reinstate the drive.

A dedicated 22mm pipe is taken from the stoptap to the combi inlet. A tee at
the stop and then all cold outlets from this. Once a decent mains pressure
and, piped properly then no problems.

"Once" could be expensive.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:45:00 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net):

If the mains are poor it is well worth getting
it replaced to a larger bore.
Once done it is done for ever.

However, check the cost. I was
quoted £3k

3K to replace a mains pipe? Sounds too steep. Main replacemnet is nver this
expesnive, unless you are up a 300 yard drive. You do all the work yourself
(digging). and leave the pipe above ground and they come and connect.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:09:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:45:00 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net):

If the mains are poor it is well worth getting
it replaced to a larger bore.
Once done it is done for ever.

However, check the cost. I was
quoted £3k

3K to replace a mains pipe? Sounds too steep.

That was the price from several suppliers because of complex routing and
reinstatement.

Main replacemnet is nver this
expesnive, unless you are up a 300 yard drive.

I am afraid it is.


You do all the work yourself
(digging). and leave the pipe above ground and they come and connect.



I don't do heavy digging.

However, even on a DIY basis, this would take a lot of time, as would the
reinstatement.

Whichever way you look at it, the time, the inconvenience and the cost are
considerable items and not something that can be disregarded.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:20:13 +0100, Willi wrote:



I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather have a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

It's probably time you had a look at the boiler choice FAQ and the heating
section of the main FAQ.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:20:13 +0100, Willi wrote:



I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather have a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is
not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

It's probably time you had a look at the boiler choice FAQ and the heating
section of the main FAQ.

I would say give it a miss as it's 20 years out of date. Get it updated.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
If the mains are poor it is well worth getting it replaced to a larger
bore. Once done it is done for ever.


However, check the cost. I was quoted £3k for this and then it would
have taken a further £2k to reinstate the drive.

Indeed. And the possibly uprated gas main for that 'high flow' combi.
But of course dribble doesn't worry about spending money. Provided it
isn't his...

A dedicated 22mm pipe is taken from the stoptap to the combi inlet. A
tee at the stop and then all cold outlets from this. Once a decent
mains pressure and, piped properly then no problems.

"Once" could be expensive.

I've a feeling even a new 22mm water main wouldn't provide enough flow in
this part of London where the pressure is at the minimum.

--
*A nest isn't empty until all their stuff is out of the attic

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

If the mains are poor it is well worth
getting it replaced to a larger
bore. Once done it is done for ever.

However, check the cost. I was
quoted £3k for this and then it would
have taken a further £2k to reinstate
the drive.

Indeed. And the possibly uprated gas
main for that 'high flow' combi.

Oh my God. A domestic gas meter can supply 62kW

I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather have a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is
not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

It's probably time you had a look at the boiler choice FAQ and the heating
section of the main FAQ.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

Thanks for all your reply's. All are very interesting. I can see basically
what the differences & pro's & cons are now of the different system types.
In a nutshell " You have give me all the clues"
Thanks all.
Regards, Will

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:37:29 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:20:13 +0100, Willi wrote:



I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather have a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank is
not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

It's probably time you had a look at the boiler choice FAQ and the heating
section of the main FAQ.

I would say give it a miss as it's 20 years out of date. Get it updated.

You have made this comment several times of late.
I would be happy to update the FAQ if you could be more specific. To put
it another way which aspects of domestic heating technology that have
changed in the last 20 years are not covered in the BoilerChoice FAQ?
Is there something which is so glaringly wrong it needs correcting?

If, however, as many might suspect, you are simply slating the FAQ for not
over-whelmingly endorsing combis then the FAQ will stand as it is.
Both the main FAQ and the Boiler Choice FAQ set out arguments for and
against and explain the matter is not an open and shut case.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:37:29 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:20:13 +0100, Willi wrote:



I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not
Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather have
a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank
is
not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

It's probably time you had a look at the boiler choice FAQ and the
heating
section of the main FAQ.

I would say give it a miss as it's 20 years out of date. Get it updated.

You have made this comment several times of late.
I would be happy to update the FAQ if you could be more specific.

Here is the post. The FAQ parts in quotes.

Have a read of the BoilerChoice FAQ it may help.

Or may not:

"Vented HW cylinder.
This is still the norm for most houses. With a modern cylinder and correct
controls there should be no problem with running a bath every 15-20 minutes.
Cylinders are now required to have a good level of insulation (not the old
jacket insulation). New replacement cylinders will be able to heat the whole
cylinder from cold in around 20-25minute,"

20 to 25 minutes? Only a quick recovery cylinder can do this. The normal
Part L is rated at 30 minutes warm up if all criteria is met in boiler
temperatures, flow, etc. A quick recovery with a condensing boiler can
reheat in 10 to 15 minutes depending on boiler size. They also enhance
condesning efficiency. There is no mention of quick recovery cylinders in
this FAQ.

"Unvented HW cylinder:
Offers HW at mains pressure together with excellent flow. These are
expensive and can only be installed by qualified people. To justify the
expense you really need to have an excellent water main at least 25mm
diameter plastic pipe. Results will be adequate but probably not worth the
cost if used with an ordinary lead or 20mm plastic incomers. "

The all important annual service is omitted. It will cost £60-100 a year to
have serviced. That is over £2,000 over 20 years. They also have the
potential to explode:
http://www.waterheaterblast.com

"Thermal sto
Offers most of the advantages of the Unvented cylinders, costs are similar
but may be diy installed. The flowrate is still pretty good (around 20
litres/min). Can be used to integrate other sources of heat (solid fuel,
solar) or facilitate underfloor heating."

No mention of the heat bank variant of the thermal store (Heat banks use
plate heat exchangers, stores use coils), which can give flowrates of 40
litres/min or more.

"Normal combi boiler:
Heats water only when it is needed. Instant availability (after the HW has
drawn through and the boiler settled down - about 10-40 seconds).
Never runs out. Simplified installation. Rather limited flow rate. "

Know as an "infinitely continuous" combi, not a normal combi. Some models
have very high flowrates that fill baths very fast indeed, and can do 2
bathrooms (MAN made in Germany), although these are not available in the
local plumbers shop being special order.

"Small storage combi:
As above but holds a store of HW to give a prompter response and improved
flow rates for a while until the stored HW has run out. "

The above are to eliminate the combi lag at the taps, giving faster hot
water. This was not explained.

"Large storage combi:
Washing machine sized floor standing combi boiler. Contains pretty much all
of the benefits of a HW cylinder whilst still having a simplified
installation. Saves the space that a HW cylinder would take.
There are multiple decisions to be made based on trades-off between size,
cost, flow rate, warm up times etc."

Some are larger than washing machines sizes. Some can supply three baths
(Gledhill Gulfstream), ACV Heatmaster. All have no cold water tanks.

No mention of high flowrate wall mounted combis like the Alpha CD50, which
is a mix of the infinitely continuous combi and a stored water combi. It is
a two stage flowrate (high and low) and never runs out of hot water.

No mention of high flowrate multi-point water heaters like the Rinnai and
Andrews (relatively new innovations in the UK), which can also be fitted
outside saving much space inside a house, and do two bathrooms. A small CH
boiler and an outside high flowrate Rinnai will be about the same price as a
boiler and an unvented cylinder, probably less, and takes up no space in the
house and never runs out of hot water. And if the boiler is down the DHW
still runs. Also no troublesome CH zone valves on the CH system making a
simpler and more reliable installation. Rinnais have interior models too.
Rinnais are ideal for multi-jet showers (a newish innovation). An unvented
cylinder would have to be "very" large, and expensive, to compete with the
output of a Rinnai.

This FAQ is misleading and omitting information of modern equipment and ways
gives a distorted ill-informed view. I would not recommend people take this
FAQ seriously as it is only applicable to 1986.

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:41:01 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:37:29 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:20:13 +0100, Willi wrote:



I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not
Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather have
a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank
is
not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

It's probably time you had a look at the boiler choice FAQ and the
heating
section of the main FAQ.

I would say give it a miss as it's 20 years out of date. Get it updated.

You have made this comment several times of late.
I would be happy to update the FAQ if you could be more specific.

Here is the post. The FAQ parts in quotes.

Have a read of the BoilerChoice FAQ it may help.

Or may not:

"Vented HW cylinder.
This is still the norm for most houses. With a modern cylinder and correct
controls there should be no problem with running a bath every 15-20 minutes.
Cylinders are now required to have a good level of insulation (not the old
jacket insulation). New replacement cylinders will be able to heat the whole
cylinder from cold in around 20-25minute,"

20 to 25 minutes? Only a quick recovery cylinder can do this. The normal
Part L is rated at 30 minutes warm up if all criteria is met in boiler
temperatures, flow, etc. A quick recovery with a condensing boiler can
reheat in 10 to 15 minutes depending on boiler size. They also enhance
condesning efficiency. There is no mention of quick recovery cylinders in
this FAQ.

The relevant standard mentions times around 20 minutes - for Part L
compliant cylinders. Suggestion not upheld.



"Unvented HW cylinder:
Offers HW at mains pressure together with excellent flow. These are
expensive and can only be installed by qualified people. To justify the
expense you really need to have an excellent water main at least 25mm
diameter plastic pipe. Results will be adequate but probably not worth the
cost if used with an ordinary lead or 20mm plastic incomers. "

The all important annual service is omitted. It will cost £60-100 a year to
have serviced. That is over £2,000 over 20 years. They also have the
potential to explode:

The potential to explode is eliminated by having the only possible method
of heating which could cause a problem (electricity) to have two
thermostats (one of which locks out) also there are two pressure relief
valves, and one temperature relief valves.

There is no manadatory requirement to have the unit serviced and frankly
the guarantees are either so limited or never likely to be needed.

It is possible to create a hazard by incorrect installation as indeed it
is with a vented cylinder (I've seen one this year with a valve on the
outlet vent pipe).

NO change.



"Thermal sto
Offers most of the advantages of the Unvented cylinders, costs are similar
but may be diy installed. The flowrate is still pretty good (around 20
litres/min). Can be used to integrate other sources of heat (solid fuel,
solar) or facilitate underfloor heating."

No mention of the heat bank variant of the thermal store (Heat banks use
plate heat exchangers, stores use coils), which can give flowrates of 40
litres/min or more.

Too much detail. Splitting semantic and linguistic hairs is not my style.
I might add "at least 20 litres/minute or more".


"Normal combi boiler:
Heats water only when it is needed. Instant availability (after the HW has
drawn through and the boiler settled down - about 10-40 seconds).
Never runs out. Simplified installation. Rather limited flow rate. "

Know as an "infinitely continuous" combi, not a normal combi. Some models
have very high flowrates that fill baths very fast indeed, and can do 2
bathrooms (MAN made in Germany), although these are not available in the
local plumbers shop being special order.

"Small storage combi:
As above but holds a store of HW to give a prompter response and improved
flow rates for a while until the stored HW has run out. "

The above are to eliminate the combi lag at the taps, giving faster hot
water. This was not explained.

I think the explanation says 'prompter response' - how is that a failure
to explain. Much of the lag is the pipe work and such a boiler will not
make any difference to that aspect.


"Large storage combi:
Washing machine sized floor standing combi boiler. Contains pretty much all
of the benefits of a HW cylinder whilst still having a simplified
installation. Saves the space that a HW cylinder would take.
There are multiple decisions to be made based on trades-off between size,
cost, flow rate, warm up times etc."

Some are larger than washing machines sizes. Some can supply three baths
(Gledhill Gulfstream), ACV Heatmaster. All have no cold water tanks.

Covered by the term 'simplified installation'.


No mention of high flowrate wall mounted combis like the Alpha CD50, which
is a mix of the infinitely continuous combi and a stored water combi. It is
a two stage flowrate (high and low) and never runs out of hot water.

Covered by the comment about a 'spectrum of models'.
I might add ...typically a large floor mounted unit although some are
wall mounted ...


No mention of high flowrate multi-point water heaters like the Rinnai and
Andrews (relatively new innovations in the UK), which can also be fitted
outside saving much space inside a house, and do two bathrooms. A small CH
boiler and an outside high flowrate Rinnai will be about the same price as a
boiler and an unvented cylinder, probably less, and takes up no space in the
house and never runs out of hot water. And if the boiler is down the DHW
still runs. Also no troublesome CH zone valves on the CH system making a
simpler and more reliable installation. Rinnais have interior models too.
Rinnais are ideal for multi-jet showers (a newish innovation). An unvented
cylinder would have to be "very" large, and expensive, to compete with the
output of a Rinnai.

This FAQ is misleading and omitting information of modern equipment and ways
gives a distorted ill-informed view. I would not recommend people take this
FAQ seriously as it is only applicable to 1986.

The FAQ is written to help a variety of people including those who might
not even know about a combi or a condensing boiler (or might
even believe those terms were opposites).

The FAQ does not contain the very precise and detailed
descriptions of the slightly different shades of combi boiler (some of
which are much more functional than many people may have experienced).

If in a thread it turns out the the discussion can usefully delve into
these matters that's fine. The purpose of the FAQ is save time and effort
by answering the _bulk_ of the questions so that the effort can be
focused on specifics in a thread.

You are welcome to write you own comprehensive guide to combi boilers and
host it yourself.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:41:01 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:37:29 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:20:13 +0100, Willi wrote:



I will be looking for wall hung, condensing, good efficiency. Not
Combi,
for a 4 bedroom house. vented fully pumped system.

.....are you a member of the flat earth society as well?

Dr Drivel
Can i ask what makes you say that? Are you saying you would rather
have
a
Combi?
I will consider all options. (but not warm air, however good they are
now).
What are the advantages of a Combi? I guess space as a hot water tank
is
not
required, but what are the others?
Regards, Will

It's probably time you had a look at the boiler choice FAQ and the
heating
section of the main FAQ.

I would say give it a miss as it's 20 years out of date. Get it
updated.

You have made this comment several times of late.
I would be happy to update the FAQ if you could be more specific.

Here is the post. The FAQ parts in quotes.

Have a read of the BoilerChoice FAQ it may help.

Or may not:

"Vented HW cylinder.
This is still the norm for most houses. With a modern cylinder and
correct
controls there should be no problem with running a bath every 15-20
minutes.
Cylinders are now required to have a good level of insulation (not the
old
jacket insulation). New replacement cylinders will be able to heat the
whole
cylinder from cold in around 20-25minute,"

20 to 25 minutes? Only a quick recovery cylinder can do this. The
normal
Part L is rated at 30 minutes warm up if all criteria is met in boiler
temperatures, flow, etc. A quick recovery with a condensing boiler can
reheat in 10 to 15 minutes depending on boiler size. They also enhance
condesning efficiency. There is no mention of quick recovery cylinders in
this FAQ.

The relevant standard mentions times around 20 minutes - for Part L
compliant cylinders. Suggestion not upheld.

NO. Maximum 30 minutes, most go slightly better to keep with Part L.
Gledhill say:
"British standard
A cylinder/tank to this standard will have an approximate re-heat time of 25
minutes with a suitable boiler and a pumped primary circuit."

Quick recovery cylinders are a reality and popular and "enhance condensing
efficiency" at the same time "downsizing an existing cylinder". In most
cases the owner never runs out of hot water as the boiler is replenishing as
fast as it can be drawn off.

These need mentioning as they are there and relevant. The two relevant
points are in quotes.

"Unvented HW cylinder:
Offers HW at mains pressure together with excellent flow. These are
expensive and can only be installed by qualified people. To justify the
expense you really need to have an excellent water main at least 25mm
diameter plastic pipe. Results will be adequate but probably not worth
the
cost if used with an ordinary lead or 20mm plastic incomers. "

The all important annual service is omitted. It will cost £60-100 a year
to
have serviced. That is over £2,000 over 20 years. They also have the
potential to explode:

The potential to explode is eliminated by
having the only possible method
of heating which could cause a problem
(electricity) to have two thermostats
(one of which locks out) also there are
two pressure relief valves, and one temperature
relief valves.

The potential to explode is NOT "eliminated" It CAN explode. The potential
is "reduced" by safety features. People need to be aware of the dangers and
that unexploding versions are avialable giving identical performance, such
as vented thermal stores and heat banks.

There is no manadatory requirement to have
the unit serviced

"Every" makers have them annually serviced. If not the insurance will not
pay up in a claim. Gledhill say:
"Unlike unvented cylinders BoilerMate A-Class does not require an annual
service"

The regs recommend a service and the makers insist on one.

Also look at this:
http://www.heatweb.com/products/cyli...k/pandora.html

People must be made aware of the extra annual cost to maintain this
potential bomb. "There is an extra cost".

It is possible to create a hazard by
incorrect installation as indeed it
is with a vented cylinder (I've seen
one this year with a valve on the
outlet vent pipe).

NO change.

The FAQ is not about incorrect installations at all. Focus on what it isn
about. You are irresponsible and need to learn more about unvented
cylinders. Your word "eliminated" is indicative.

"Thermal sto
Offers most of the advantages of the Unvented cylinders, costs are
similar
but may be diy installed. The flowrate is still pretty good (around 20
litres/min). Can be used to integrate other sources of heat (solid fuel,
solar) or facilitate underfloor heating."

No mention of the heat bank variant of the thermal store (Heat banks use
plate heat exchangers, stores use coils), which can give flowrates of 40
litres/min or more.

Too much detail. Splitting semantic and linguistic hairs is not my style.
I might add "at least 20 litres/minute or more".

That is irresponsible as the average heat bank can deliver 40 litres/min.
TWICE what you say. A minimum of 20 litres is misleading. Thermal stores
and heat banks are different, even if you think they are not. The DHW take
offs is very different indeed. The only thing they have in common on the
DHW front is stored hot water to transfer heat.

"Normal combi boiler:
Heats water only when it is needed. Instant availability (after the HW
has
drawn through and the boiler settled down - about 10-40 seconds).
Never runs out. Simplified installation. Rather limited flow rate. "

Know as an "infinitely continuous" combi, not a normal combi. Some
models
have very high flowrates that fill baths very fast indeed, and can do 2
bathrooms (MAN made in Germany), although these are not available in the
local plumbers shop being special order.

"Small storage combi:
As above but holds a store of HW to
give a prompter response and improved
flow rates for a while until the stored HW
has run out. "

The above are to eliminate the combi lag
at the taps, giving faster hot
water. This was not explained.

I think the explanation says 'prompter
response' - how is that a failure
to explain.

Too vague. Combi lag at the taps is more in keeping with what people
understand. Know your audience and those reading will be novices.

Much of the lag is the pipework and such a boiler will not
make any difference to that aspect.

You don't even mention that either.

"Large storage combi:
Washing machine sized floor standing combi
boiler. Contains pretty much all
of the benefits of a HW cylinder whilst still having a simplified
installation. Saves the space that a HW cylinder would take.
There are multiple decisions to be made based on trades-off between size,
cost, flow rate, warm up times etc."

Some are larger than washing machines
sizes. Some can supply three baths
(Gledhill Gulfstream), ACV Heatmaster.
All have no cold water tanks.

Covered by the term 'simplified installation'.

Not covered at all. 'simplified installation' is too vague. You say
washing machined sized, only two are, with most being larger, and many can
deliver 3 baths and over, whch is very different to a single bathroom job.
People need to know the range of flows which these combis can deliver. Yes
one can do 3 baths, which is highly significant - you have no mention of
such power, just open vague comments. It is a FAQ!!!!! Highlighting the
types and sizes and what they can deliver is not that difficult.

No mention of high flowrate wall mounted
combis like the Alpha CD50, which
is a mix of the infinitely continuous
combi and a stored water combi. It is
a two stage flowrate (high and low) and
never runs out of hot water.

Covered by the comment about a
'spectrum of models'.

Now that says a lot!!! Are you serious, or taking the ****? An FAQ is to
explain.

The point is that some wall mounted models can give cylinder performance.
Floor mounted models may give higher performance. The stored water models
don't always run out of hot water with a few having two stage flowrates, so
NEVER running out of hot water - all applicable to when choosing a model.
No mention of it all, just some cover all vague term.

I might add ...typically a large floor
mounted unit although some are
wall mounted ...

Best add what I suggested.

No mention of high flowrate multi-point water heaters like the Rinnai and
Andrews (relatively new innovations in the UK), which can also be fitted
outside saving much space inside a house, and do two bathrooms. A small
CH
boiler and an outside high flowrate Rinnai will be about the same price
as a
boiler and an unvented cylinder, probably less, and takes up no space in
the
house and never runs out of hot water. And if the boiler is down the DHW
still runs. Also no troublesome CH zone valves on the CH system making a
simpler and more reliable installation. Rinnais have interior models
too.
Rinnais are ideal for multi-jet showers (a newish innovation). An
unvented
cylinder would have to be "very" large,
and expensive, to compete with the
output of a Rinnai.

This FAQ is misleading and omitting information of modern equipment and
ways
gives a distorted ill-informed view. I would not recommend people take
this
FAQ seriously as it is only applicable to 1986.

The FAQ is written to help a
variety of people including those who might
not even know about a combi or a
condensing boiler (or might
even believe those terms were opposites).

Yep.

The FAQ does not contain the very
precise and detailed descriptions of
the slightly different shades of combi
boiler (some of which are much more
functional than many people may
have experienced).

It is so lacking and out of date it is misleading

If in a thread it turns out the the
discussion can usefully delve into
these matters that's fine. The purpose
of the FAQ is save time and effort
by answering the _bulk_ of the
questions

The questions which you think is relevant, but your mind is in 1986.

You have totally dismissed the Rinnais. For Gods sake!!! They are superb
for full body jet showers, which are catching on like widfire, replacing
expensive large cylinders...and can be fitted "outside" too. Two recent
innovations to the UK that can add value, and not mentioned and you don't
think it relevant either. My God!

so that the effort can be
focused on specifics in a thread.

You are welcome to write

You asked me for input. I am giving it. Now develop an attitude resenting
the significant and relevant suggestions.

If you do not incorporate my relevant suggestions. PLEASE DROP THE FAQ. It
is misleading. It comes across a very amateurish.

If it is not changed I will continue to tell people to ignore it, as it is
vague and lacks information of modern innovations. No one can make a
reasoned choice from it only the choice you think is applicable, which
revolves around 1986..

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:46:17 +0100, in uk.d-i-y "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:41:01 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


[snip highly antagonistic critique of Ed's "Choosing a Boiler FAQ"]

Mr Drivel...

It takes a lot of time and thought to produce a comprehensive FAQ. Very
few come out fully formed and almost all start off as few paragraphs
aimed at answering some basic questions. Then they can be built upon.

Whilst I might agree that Ed's FAQ does not cover the whole range of
options it IS a very good introduction. Bear in mind it is written
voluntarily in his own time and he PAYS for the webspace. It is very
easy to knock things, but not so easy to write coherent text that
contains complete and error-free information. You of all people should
know that.

Try giving your comments in a more friendly and less aggressive way, and
you might find they are more readily accepted.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

"Phil Addison" wrote in message
...

Mr Drivel...

That's me.

Whilst I might agree that Ed's FAQ does
not cover the whole range of
options it IS a very good introduction.

It is 20 years out of date, which I have told him. He asked for me input, I
have given it. He has basically rejected the lot. The FAQ as it stands it
pretty useless for a novice to grasp in parts as he is using catch all
phrases which are meaningless to a novice.

Things have moved on in 20 years - the introduction of the plate heat
exchanger to domestic appliances as led to great leaps in instant hot water
in combis and heat banks. Most boilers sold now are combis - a FACT. About
1 million boiers are sold each year with combis being 60 to 70% of sales.
The "traditional" boiler now is the combi. Mains pressure hot water is the
prime way ahead, if the mains pressure and flow is good enough a mains
pressure system is the first choice, whether combi (of various types), heat
bank, thermal store or unvented cylinder. Combis (the floor mounted jobs)
can even supply up to 3 baths. Instant hot water doesn't cover all as it is
mains pressure and flow dependent, so the older methods of stored water have
to be covered too. That is the way it is. That is way it is going. An up
to date FAQ must cover the choices merely stating what is available. It
doesn't it whitters on about yesterdays technology and methods and
approaches.

I have highlighted some relevant innovations that are highly useful. Ed, no
doubt has never seen an Rinnai or Andrews multi-point, so he dismisses them
out of hand - not down the local merchants guv so can't be right. These
high flow Japanese appliances are a God send to some homes being fitted
outside if you want and doing two bathroom too - superb for increasingly
popular multi-jet showers (even B&Q sell them). Stay in a multi-jet for not
too long and you will run out of hot water on a normal cylinder, a Rinnai
will supply the needs, and cheaper than massive space taking unvented
cylinders with their £100 annual service charge - which Ed thinks is not
relevant, yes. That is just two innovations that have come to the UK
recently, which the FAQ does not even mention.

For dismissing the combi myths and giving the levels available look at
below. I have periodically posted a comprehensive post on combis on the
group, that could go in the FAQ. Here it is:
______________
Here is a run down on combi's:

Firstly, a combi is a "combination" of the heating and water system in one
case, eliminating external tanks and cylinders, and generally supply hot
water at high main pressure. The case could be small and wall mounted or
large and floor mounted, but a "one-box" solution. To confuse a little,
some can run at very low pressures and even off tanks. Generally most are
fed from the mains. It is generally a matter of mounting the boiler and
connect up the pipes. The expert designers have done the hard work for you
and put all in one case.

Combis are rated by DHW "flowrate". The CH side is generally large enough
to heat a 5 bedroomed house.

Types of combi:

1) The Infinitely Continuous Combi -

Generally gives low flowrates with exceptions giving high flows. The low
flowrate models fill bath slowly but excellent for showers. Heats cold
mains water instantly as it runs through the combi. It never runs out of hot
water. This is the most common type of combi, generally having lower
flowrates than Nos 2 & 3 below. Typical flow rates are 11 to 12 litres per
minute, with some 40kW versions giving around 15 litres per minute. The
largest flow rate instant combi generally abailable in the UK is a two
bathroom model, 22 litres/min ECO-Hometec. Being a condenser it is very
economical too. http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk The largest flow rate model
is the special order wall mounted MAN Micromat at 76kW which requires a
commercial sized gas meter.

Some models may have a small 10 to 15 litres store of water to prevent the
"combi lag" at the taps. Water is delivered to the taps at the same rate as
an cyldiner system. Other models keep the internal plate heat exchanger hot
to eliminate the "combi lag".

2) Unvented Cylinder Combi -

Gives High flowrates. An unvented cylinder is a similar to a conventional
cylinder but run off the high-pressure cold mains. A combi with an integral
unvented cylinder has approx a 60 litre cylinder heated to approx 80C, with
a quick recovery coil that takes all the boilers output. A fast acting
cylinder thermostat ensures the boiler pumps heat into the cylinder ASAP
with a recovery rate from cold around 5-8 mins (Ariston claim 8 mins). The
80C water is blended down to about 45-50C. e.g's, wall mounted: Ariston
Genus 27 Plus, Glow Worm, Alpha CD50. Floor mounted: Powermax, Ideal Istor,
ACV HeatMaster (unvented cylinder/thermal store hybrid), Geminox.

3) Infinitely Continuous/Unvented cylinder combi -

Gives High flowrates. A wall mounted example being the Alpha CD50, a
combination of both having a two stage flowrate, of a high flowrate of 18 to
19 litres per minute when using the stored water with an automatic flow
regulator switching in to reduce flow to an infinitely continuous flowrate
of approx 13-14 litres/min when the stored hot water is exhausted.
http://www.alpha-boilers.com/products/CD50.html

Most models on sale now tend to have this two stage function.

4) Heat Bank Combi -

Gives High flowrates. Incoming water is instantly heated running through a
plate heat exchanger that takes its heat from a "domestic hot water only"
store of water at approx 80C. This store of water is "primary" water, water
that stays inside the system at all times - the water is used to store heat.
A fast acting thermostat ensures the boiler pumps all of its heat into the
heat store ASAP with a recovery rate about 5-8 mins from cold. The 80C water
is blended down to about 45-50C. They are generally two stage flow rates, in
that when the thermal store is exhausted it reverts to what the burner can
produce, which is approx 11-12 litre/minute. e.g. All floor standing
models: Vokera & Worcester-Bosch (both standard washing machine sizes),
Viessmann 333,

N.B. The heat bank is a variation of a thermal store, but is "not" a thermal
store in the conventional sense in that a coil carrying cold mains water
runs though a store of hot water kept at about 80C. Heat-banks are far more
efficient and give higher flowrates than conventional coiled thermal stores.
The stainless steel plate heat-exchangers do not scale up so easily as the
plates flex.

5) Combined Primary Storage Unit

Gives High flowrates. Not classed as a combi, but a derivative of a combi,
but still a one box solution, so still in the same family.

These are a combination of a large thermal store, or heat bank, and boiler
in one casing. The units are large (larger than standard washing machine
size) and floor mounted. The heating is taken off the thermal store, which
in many cases the DHW taken off the store using a plate heat-exchanger
(heat-bank). Unlike the Heat-bank in 3) above the thermal store supplies
heating "and" DHW, giving the "combined" to the title. They are available
from 1 to 3 bathroom models. Gledhill do an excellent condensing version,
the Gulfstream 2000. http://www.gledhill.net

Nos. 2), 3), 4) & 5) have high flowrates. No. 1 "generally" has low
flowrates but there are always exceptions and some can be high - e.g. the
ECO-Hometec infinitely continuous combi, actually has a very high flowrate.
Nos 2), 3), 4) & 5) use stored water, but in different ways. Unlike No. 1
"some" versions will eventually run cold, but that takes quite a time, hence
some are referred to as "two bathroom" models, having the ability to fill
two baths with very fast recovery rates. Most models have two stage
flowrates so hot water never runs out. As hot water is being drawn off the
high rated burner is also reheating. Very rare do these combi's run out of
hot water in average use. When taking one shower the burner may be
re-heating faster than what can be drawn-off. No. 3) above uses stored
water but will not run out of hot water (high and low flowrates). Most
versions of No. 4) above are two stage flowrate models (high and low
flowrates) and will also not run out of hot water.

There are a few combi models that give hot water and heating simultaneously
as Combined Primary Storage Units do, using two pumps. Most don't as they
are hot water priority.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Things have moved on in 20 years - the introduction of the plate heat
exchanger to domestic appliances as led to great leaps in instant hot
water in combis and heat banks. Most boilers sold now are combis - a
FACT. About 1 million boiers are sold each year with combis being 60
to 70% of sales. The "traditional" boiler now is the combi.

Because it's cheap and cheap to install - as well as possibly saving some
space. But this certainly doesn't make it the ideal solution. As the poor
performance of *the majority* of combi installations, hot water flow wise,
bears out - no matter how you rant and rave about 'high flow' types.
Because those who can only afford a standard combi installation just ain't
going to find the money for a better one. And that's where the cost
effectiveness of a storage system comes in, because it often already
exists.

Mains pressure hot water is the prime way ahead, if the mains pressure
and flow is good enough a mains pressure system is the first choice,
whether combi (of various types), heat bank, thermal store or unvented
cylinder.

Oh sure. Where turning on any tap in the house - or flushing a loo -
effects the hot water flow. *Very* high tech.

Combis (the floor mounted jobs) can even supply up to 3
baths. Instant hot water doesn't cover all as it is mains pressure and
flow dependent, so the older methods of stored water have to be covered
too. That is the way it is. That is way it is going. An up to date
FAQ must cover the choices merely stating what is available. It doesn't
it whitters on about yesterdays technology and methods and approaches.

The FAQ gives the basics as apply to most. For expensive high tech
alternatives you can always ask here - as no FAQ will ever be bang up to
date.

I have highlighted some relevant innovations that are highly useful.
Ed, no doubt has never seen an Rinnai or Andrews multi-point, so he
dismisses them out of hand - not down the local merchants guv so can't
be right. These high flow Japanese appliances are a God send to some
homes being fitted outside if you want and doing two bathroom too -
superb for increasingly popular multi-jet showers (even B&Q sell them).

Just how many want two boilers with the initial costs and servicing
requirements that brings? Again, a specialist requirement and not really
neccessary for a DIY FAQ.

Stay in a multi-jet for not too long and you will run out of hot water
on a normal cylinder, a Rinnai will supply the needs, and cheaper than
massive space taking unvented cylinders with their £100 annual service
charge - which Ed thinks is not relevant, yes. That is just two
innovations that have come to the UK recently, which the FAQ does not
even mention.

You as usual neglect to give any guide cost as to your latest pet
discovery while quoting 'firm' figures for those you don't approve of.

For dismissing the combi myths and giving the levels available look at
below. I have periodically posted a comprehensive post on combis on the
group, that could go in the FAQ.

[snip the usual claptrap]

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Things have moved on in 20 years - the introduction of the plate heat
exchanger to domestic appliances as led to great leaps in instant hot
water in combis and heat banks. Most boilers sold now are combis - a
FACT. About 1 million boiers are sold each year with combis being 60
to 70% of sales. The "traditional" boiler now is the combi.

Because

snip senil drivel and babble

He must be tired after walking around in his loafers. Sad isn't it.

*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional


That is what he said at the bottom. Sad isn't it.