"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...
David Hansen typed


On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:06:10 +0100 someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

I dislike the colour of the lamps so much that I only have one in use so
far, on the landing.

There is a fair range of colours emitted from such lamps. They are
not all the same.


Yebbut how can a hapless (or is it hopeless) consumer get an idea of the
quality of the emitted light before spending £lots?

Buy a 49p one from Asda and have a look.

Anyway many of them produce close to daylight colour output so your red
garments must look awful in the day.

The message
from Owain contains these words:

Then we could have magazines like "What Florrie" and "Tube Review"
discussing the photic characteristics of clockwise vs anticlockwise
pig-tail spiral lamps.

And wiring each one back to its own consumer unit. With spikes on.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:42:31 +0100, Owain wrote
(in article ):

Guy King wrote:
There is a fair range of colours emitted from such lamps. They are
not all the same.
The trouble is it's very subjective. You can't take someone else's word
for it, you have to experience that particular bulb yourself, and for
many people the prospect of buying half a dozen different CFLs just to
find one they like doesn't appeal.

Perhaps shops could lend out cases of samples against a deposit, like
some hi-fi shops do with interconnects.

Then we could have magazines like "What Florrie" and "Tube Review"
discussing the photic characteristics of clockwise vs anticlockwise
pig-tail spiral lamps.

Owain


I can see it now. Gold plated contacts with improved spectral response going
for £1000 a pop.

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:23:10 +0100, David Hansen wrote
(in article ):

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:03:00 +0100 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

What nonsense? Plug the control gear into the bayonet, fit bulb.
When the bulb fails replace bulb. No mess, no nonsense.

It is nonsense. The light should fit the fitting that the customer already
has.

It did.

The product has to be the right price.

This goes back to ignorance, or we can call it something else. In
most markets the informed will often buy a more expensive product if
they can, if they feel the price buys them something they want.

Absolutely. However, it isn't ignorance, it's lack of compelling story.



Offering something at the cheapest price in the market is not a
guarantee of success.

Agreed. these fail on that premise as well. there is little interest on a
"premium product" basis either.




It has to look right.

Different people put different emphasis on how things look,
especially if the product is to be installed inside something else.
Compact fluorescent lamps come in a various of looks anyway.

Still not compelling unless you are willing to put up with these
compromises.Why on earth would anybody want a spirally thing hanging out of a
lamp fitting?




It has to be appealing.

Ditto.

It has to fit easily and right

In most cases push in and twist, just like the GLS bulb one is
replacing. There can be an issue with physical size, but there can
be with GLS bulbs too.

and be no worse than what the customer can easily buy.

Compact fluorescent bulbs are a lot better in many respects.
Electricty/cost saving and not having to change the thing so often
are two examples.


It's not selling though, is it. Despite all the greeny arguments about
energy saving, flag waving, pretending that these are the same, the reality
is that they aren't and people are not finding them compelling enough to buy.

The mistake is in the misguided belief that everybody should be eco-minded.
They aren't.

there are three ways to address that:

- price. hasn't worked with subsidised bulbs
- TCO. Doesn't fly because it's too complicated.
- Plug and play. Even that hasn't been achieved.






Here we have a situation where you think that CFLs are the greatest thing
since Adam had intercourse with Eve.

It is always reassuring when the best people can do is distort the
arguments of others. If they have better arguments they usually put
them forward.



The trouble is that I would like to think the the situation is really better
than I describe. I am searching very hard for evidence without agenda that
suggests that it is.


At the end of the day, unless one distorts the market through legislation
(which always backfires), the market will vote with its wallet.

If you actually want to make a difference to this, you will need to have a
much better story because the present one works only for a tiny minority.

Owain wrote:
wrote:
Owain wrote:
I have CFLs in practically everything, because the appalling design of
this place means I have scarcely any natural light and have to use
electric 16 hours a day even in midsummer. :-(
Ouch. Sounds like suntiles would give you very good ROI,

I don't think "her upstairs" would like my sunpipes passing through her
lounge.

I've used external reflectors to double light levels, even better ROI

I don't think the neighbours, landlord, or conservation officer would
like external reflectors.

Actually, I have an external reflector. It's called the building
opposite and at certain times of the day I have to draw the curtains to
kill the specular reflections off its pebbledash.

An additional window would be nice, but apart from all the above people
who woudln't like it, "them downstairs" might object to me putting
windows through their chimneys concealed within the 30" thick walls.

Owain

oh yes, people :/

Only thing left I can think of is running a light duct between
floorboards, but if its exposed beams you cant do that either. I asume
fibre optics to be impractical.


NT

David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 20:55:27 +0100 someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

Yebbut how can a hapless (or is it hopeless) consumer get an idea of the
quality of the emitted light before spending £lots?

In the big red sheds they often have many of them turned on. Not a
perfect way, but worth looking at.

Maybe buy one at a ime, each time a different brand. Yes you spend £50
before filing the lights with decent bulbs, but a set of CFLs will save
you that much, so it ends up costing nothing really.

Some are an accurate match for filament bulbs, some arent quite right
and just dont look good in use. Close, but not quite right. We need
that BS scheme imho.


NT

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

I really would like spectrographic data for lamps; I have no problem
with scientific data!

CCT and CRI are all thats needed. Most cfls are 2700k, but there are a
few 4000k and 6500k too. CRI varies, you need high CRI. Its never
printed on the pack though.

Since I don't want to buy something that makes me feel ill, I won't buy
cfls until I know what they'll emit.

miniature bulbs are the one thing Ive found no acceptable replacment
for. Toolstation do microspirals but theyre not good light quality.
Screwfix candle bulbs are good, but their large size makes them not an
aesthetic replacement for candles or mini globes.


NT

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

I really would like spectrographic data for lamps; I have no problem
with scientific data!

CCT and CRI are all thats needed. Most cfls are 2700k, but there are a
few 4000k and 6500k too. CRI varies, you need high CRI. Its never
printed on the pack though.

Since I don't want to buy something that makes me feel ill, I won't buy
cfls until I know what they'll emit.

miniature bulbs are the one thing Ive found no acceptable replacment
for. Toolstation do microspirals but theyre not good light quality.
Screwfix candle bulbs are good, but their large size makes them not an
aesthetic replacement for candles or mini globes.

One way is to use the lowest power filaments in the fitting and add cfl
background lighting.


NT

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:46:23 +0100 someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

At the moment there may be nothing available for it.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:49:33 +0100 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

It's not selling though, is it. Despite all the greeny arguments about
energy saving, flag waving, pretending that these are the same, the reality
is that they aren't

Incorrect. Of course some would like to see them selling in greater
quantities, but that is a different discussion.

The mistake is in the misguided belief that everybody should be eco-minded.

Excellent, another attempt at mind reading.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 06:50:13 +0100, David Hansen wrote
(in article ):

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:49:33 +0100 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

It's not selling though, is it. Despite all the greeny arguments about
energy saving, flag waving, pretending that these are the same, the reality
is that they aren't

Incorrect.

Correct and exactly the point.

Of course some would like to see them selling in greater
quantities, but that is a different discussion.

I am sure that the sales figures can be found. Space allocated in retail
stores is a good indicator of market share because retailers keep a very keen
eye on sales volume and value and stock turns per square metre by department.

On this basis, sales are well under 10% by volume.



The mistake is in the misguided belief that everybody should be eco-minded.


Excellent, another attempt at mind reading.

Not really. Simply an observation. Do you see yourself in those terms?

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
And since the conversion efficiency of the power station and
transmission is pretty similar to the central heating boiler, no fossil
fuel savings result whatsoever.

Oh, you're miles off there. Power stations are typically between
30-40% efficient. Even an old central heating boiler is twice as
good as that, and a modern one even more so.

No they are not.

They use 'condensing' technology as well, you know.

Supercritical can be over 60%...almost no one builds less than 45% today.

Thermal efficiency is a function of combustion temperature and exhaust
temperature. I doubt that any domestic boiler has a combustion
temperature as high as a power station, or an efflux temperature as low
(30C)

David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:29:07 +0100 someone who may be The Natural
Philosopher wrote this:-

The CH system will use precisely the same amount of energy less as you
have used to boil the excess water.

Do tell us about this perfect heating system, installed in a perfect
house.

Its called a 'thermostat'


And since the conversion efficiency of the power station and
transmission is pretty similar to the central heating boiler,

That will be why all houses are heated by electricity then.


No, because the electricity costs more..but that all about capital costs
of power stations and the costs of running it in terms of labour, not
teh costs of the actual fuel.

If what you said was remotely true then nobody, other than a few
enthusiasts, would go to the bother of a wet heating system with gas
boiler. Electric heating is always going to be cheaper in initial
and installation cost, if its running costs were low enough it would
be very popular.

Costs are not just energy costs.

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
And since the conversion efficiency of the power station and
transmission is pretty similar to the central heating boiler, no
fossil fuel savings result whatsoever.
Oh, you're miles off there. Power stations are typically between
30-40% efficient. Even an old central heating boiler is twice as
good as that, and a modern one even more so.

No they are not.

They use 'condensing' technology as well, you know.

Supercritical can be over 60%...almost no one builds less than 45% today.

Thermal efficiency is a function of combustion temperature and exhaust
temperature. I doubt that any domestic boiler has a combustion
temperature as high as a power station, or an efflux temperature as low
(30C)

Umm... ISTR the steam cycle has a limit of 44% (Thermodynamics more
years ago than I care to remember). Obviously gas turbines do not
operate this way.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:31:37 +0100, Guy King wrote
(in article ):

The message
from Owain contains these words:

Then we could have magazines like "What Florrie" and "Tube Review"
discussing the photic characteristics of clockwise vs anticlockwise
pig-tail spiral lamps.

And wiring each one back to its own consumer unit. With spikes on.



Using that special solid silver cable. Makes all the difference....

On 4 Jul 2006 17:08:06 -0700, wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

I really would like spectrographic data for lamps; I have no problem
with scientific data!

CCT and CRI are all thats needed. Most cfls are 2700k, but there are a
few 4000k and 6500k too. CRI varies, you need high CRI. Its never
printed on the pack though.

What is CCT and CRI?

Mark

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
And since the conversion efficiency of the power station and
transmission is pretty similar to the central heating boiler, no
fossil fuel savings result whatsoever.
Oh, you're miles off there. Power stations are typically between
30-40% efficient. Even an old central heating boiler is twice as
good as that, and a modern one even more so.

No they are not.

They use 'condensing' technology as well, you know.

Supercritical can be over 60%...almost no one builds less than 45% today.

Thermal efficiency is a function of combustion temperature and exhaust
temperature. I doubt that any domestic boiler has a combustion
temperature as high as a power station, or an efflux temperature as
low (30C)

Umm... ISTR the steam cycle has a limit of 44% (Thermodynamics more
years ago than I care to remember). Obviously gas turbines do not
operate this way.


No. It purely dependent on how hot the steam is at the start, and how
cool at the end.

steam of 500C plus at the start and 30C or less at the end nets you over
60%...


Ofcourse not all power sttaions - especailly fgas - are designed to be
efficient - cheap capital cost is teh aim mainly,.

Another factor is nuclear: IF we are considering CO2 emissions, then
since 25% of electricity is nuclear, the net effect of heating by
electricity on C02 is mitigated by 25%..

so lets say power station efficiency is 50% for fossil power: The
'losses' are 50% of 75%, - 37.5%..giving an overall 'carbon thermal
efficiency' of 62.5%.

Its hard to say what ab actual modern domestic boiler REALLY achieves in
PRACTICE (as opposed to measurements after 15 minutes of firing at full
power) but I suspect its very little different to 65%.

If you add in more 'reneable' energy - or nuclear - the case for the
domestic electrical heating setup becomes more and more sane.

Or better still, micro CHP and good design..consider a nice gas turbine
generating electricity in the home, with its exhaust going not only
through a decent heat exchanger, but also round a nice complicated flue
that heats incoming air for ventilation..and whose electrical output
drives a heat pump as well...using say coils in the roof under glass to
pull in what sun power it can..in summer reverse that to provide COOL
water in the radiators etc..for aircon..

And a bank of batteries and an inverter covers periods when the system
is 'off'

So much of what we do we do because its cheap and simple, and very
inefficient. If energy prices rise, it all becomes economic.

That is why letting or forcing high fossil fuel price rises will in the
end make us energy efficient: The market itself and the individual
consumers own judgment will drive the usage down.

If annual heating bills were - say - £5000 instead of £500, and the cost
of fuel in terms of the prices of manufactured items that are energy
intensive were to ripple through, the pattern of energy usage and
generation would in time reflect that: No need to be 'ecologically
minded' - straight cost benefit analysis would dictate that it would be
worth installing a £20,000 integrated energy management system, in a
house, if it saved £3000 a year....in fuel bills.





regards

Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:31:37 +0100, Guy King wrote
(in article ):

The message
from Owain contains these words:

Then we could have magazines like "What Florrie" and "Tube Review"
discussing the photic characteristics of clockwise vs anticlockwise
pig-tail spiral lamps.
And wiring each one back to its own consumer unit. With spikes on.



Using that special solid silver cable. Makes all the difference....


Indeed. Actually superconducting is better

No need to worry about laying it in insulation then.


With the price of copper as high as it is, we may yet see the return of
aluminium cable..

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:50:15 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

Then we could have magazines like "What Florrie" and "Tube Review"
discussing the photic characteristics of clockwise vs anticlockwise
pig-tail spiral lamps.

And wiring each one back to its own consumer unit. With spikes on.

Using that special solid silver cable. Makes all the difference....

With a green felt tip marked ring 1.76mm wide, 3.653mm from the base.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 19:06:16 +0100 someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

They will need a much better emission spectrum, they'll need to fit most
luminaires, they'll need to be easily available in all sizes and shapes
etc, etc, etc...

With regard to your last two points things have changed a lot in the
past couple of years. For example, there is a fair range at
http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/bro...ode=pg&CatID=6

With regard to your first point things have also changed a lot in
the past couple of years. However this has not always been for the
better with some lamps:-(

There is an almost complete lack of dimmable CFLs in the UK. there are
*some*, not generally available, that have four or five fixed settings,
which are cycled by flicking the power on and off to the lamp, but none
that can be dimmed using a standard lightswitch dimmer function. I use
dimmers so that the same lighting fixture conveniently provides task
lighting and mood lighting - and I'm not about to get in an electrician
(Part P) and plasterer to chase in a new lighting circuit and set of
switches to separate the two functions - that will be far too
expensive. There are non-CFL continuously dimmable solutions, which I
am told are breathtakingly expensive for domestic use. I use CFLs
where I can, despite the crap light quality (having tried much more
than £50 of different lamps), but I can well understand why they do
not 'fly off the shelves'.

I agree completely with other contributors to this discussion that more
scientific info on the packaging would be useful. It is not possible
to make an informed solution with the information on standard packaging
- and not easy to find it elsewhere.

I like the idea behind CFLs. The implementation is crap.

Sid

The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

Then we could have magazines like "What Florrie" and "Tube Review"
discussing the photic characteristics of clockwise vs anticlockwise
pig-tail spiral lamps.

And wiring each one back to its own consumer unit. With spikes on.



Using that special solid silver cable. Makes all the difference....

With green pen along the base of the tube, where it joins the mahogony
base, hand-carved by Bavarian virgins.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

With the price of copper as high as it is, we may yet see the return of
aluminium cable..

Copper plated, naturally.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Guy King wrote:
The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

With the price of copper as high as it is, we may yet see the return of
aluminium cable..

Copper plated, naturally.

Is that how they do it?

Serious and curious question...

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:49:33 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

Why on earth would anybody want a spirally thing hanging out of a
lamp fitting?

Who has exposed filament bulbs?

It's not selling though, is it.

Standing at a supermarket light bulb shelf and noting how many of each
type sell in a given period isn't a good measure. For a start CFLs do
last longer. Assuming 4 times longer only a quarter need to be sold
compared to ordinary bulbs, as replacements.

Shelf space and variety of CFLs does appear to be increasing in the
supermarkets, as has been pointed out if they wern't selling they
wouldn't be there.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

David Hansen typed


On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:46:23 +0100 someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

At the moment there may be nothing available for it.


And that is a location where I'd otherwise accept a cfl. Great!

I do not intend to change my lounge lamps, though it might be possible.
I'd need to replace 18 * 40w bulbs.

There are usually 5 bulbs lit at any one time.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Mark typed


On 4 Jul 2006 17:08:06 -0700, wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

I really would like spectrographic data for lamps; I have no problem
with scientific data!

CCT and CRI are all thats needed. Most cfls are 2700k, but there are a
few 4000k and 6500k too. CRI varies, you need high CRI. Its never
printed on the pack though.

What is CCT and CRI?

Mark

Colour temperature is irrelevant if the emission spectrum, unlike an
incandescent lamp, has many 'holes'.

The whole point is that some frequencies are overdone and some are absent.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 09:16:30 +0100 The Natural Philosopher wrote :
Its hard to say what ab actual modern domestic boiler REALLY achieves in
PRACTICE (as opposed to measurements after 15 minutes of firing at full
power) but I suspect its very little different to 65%.

The SEDBUK efficiency (around 90% for most condensing boilers) is
calculated on 50% at full load and 50% at 30% load.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 10:14:56 +0100 The Natural Philosopher wrote :
With the price of copper as high as it is, we may yet see the
return of aluminium cable..

Copper plated, naturally.

Is that how they do it?

Serious and curious question...

Cable like this was around 25? years ago. Same era as stainless steel
tube for plumbing - an absolute pain to solder AIUI.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes

Oh, you're miles off there. Power stations are typically between
30-40% efficient. Even an old central heating boiler is twice as
good as that, and a modern one even more so.

No they are not.

They use 'condensing' technology as well, you know.

Supercritical can be over 60%...almost no one builds less than 45% today.

Thermal efficiency is a function of combustion temperature and
exhaust temperature. I doubt that any domestic boiler has a
combustion temperature as high as a power station, or an efflux
temperature as low (30C)
Umm... ISTR the steam cycle has a limit of 44% (Thermodynamics more
years ago than I care to remember). Obviously gas turbines do not
operate this way.


No. It purely dependent on how hot the steam is at the start, and how
cool at the end.

steam of 500C plus at the start and 30C or less at the end nets you
over 60%...

I'm not looking for a fight:-)

My recollection is that the limit is caused by the latent heat locked in
at vaporisation. If you can usefully extract this from your cooling
tower then overall thermal efficiency goes up.

They were looking at Magneto Thermo Dynamics as a way of *topping* when
I were a lad.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

With the price of copper as high as it is, we may yet see the return of
aluminium cable..

Copper plated, naturally.

Is that how they do it?

Serious and curious question...

No. Though it's a thought....

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message om
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:

Who has exposed filament bulbs?

Look out of a train window in any suburban area and you'll see hundreds
of 'em in back bedrooms.

Ghastly.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Owain wrote:
wrote:

Only thing left I can think of is running a light duct between
floorboards, but if its exposed beams you cant do that either.

There's about a ft of compacted clinker between the joists, for sound
insulation.

then it could be done. But its a tradeoff. How shallow do sun tubes
get?


I asume fibre optics to be impractical.

Possibly not cost-effective.

I havent a clue what it costs, have you checked? Your potential saving
is quite large over say 8 years and a few fittings.


NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So much of what we do we do because its cheap and simple, and very
inefficient. If energy prices rise, it all becomes economic.

The trouble with that view is that the goods we purchase come primarily
down to energy cost and human time cost. IOW as energy prices rise, so
do the costs of the energy saving equipment. Regrettably this wont make
every measure affordable. What it will do is make currently affordable
technologies pay back much more, thus start to be used when now we dont
bother.

What will imho, as it already has done over time, make more and more be
done is the ever falling real cost of goods, due to more manufacturing
efficiency, sleeker business models, and increasing wealth.


That is why letting or forcing high fossil fuel price rises will in the
end make us energy efficient: The market itself and the individual
consumers own judgment will drive the usage down.

If annual heating bills were - say - £5000 instead of £500, and the cost
of fuel in terms of the prices of manufactured items that are energy
intensive were to ripple through, the pattern of energy usage and
generation would in time reflect that: No need to be 'ecologically
minded' - straight cost benefit analysis would dictate that it would be
worth installing a £20,000 integrated energy management system, in a
house, if it saved £3000 a year....in fuel bills.

Perhaps its nothing but an economic decision anyway. With wind and
nuclear sources, the carbon emissoins question isnt that relevant, our
energy use level simply comes down to economics. (politics too of
course)


NT

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
David Hansen typed


On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:46:23 +0100 someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

At the moment there may be nothing available for it.


And that is a location where I'd otherwise accept a cfl. Great!

I do not intend to change my lounge lamps, though it might be possible.
I'd need to replace 18 * 40w bulbs.

There are usually 5 bulbs lit at any one time.

Both theses situations are easy to address. You just dont want cfl


NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Guy King wrote:
The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

With the price of copper as high as it is, we may yet see the return of
aluminium cable..

Copper plated, naturally.

Is that how they do it?

Serious and curious question...

When I was offered al cable it was aluminium core with copper coating,
and there was as much cu as there was al, so it wasnt plated. I
understand the problems with al cable, but have never heard any
convincing problem with this 50/50 stuff. It seems the logical choice
to me. Once people get past the simple minded 'well aluminium is bad'
and look at it a bit more thoughtfully.


NT

wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
Mark typed
On 4 Jul 2006 17:08:06 -0700, wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

CCT and CRI are all thats needed. Most cfls are 2700k, but there are a
few 4000k and 6500k too. CRI varies, you need high CRI. Its never
printed on the pack though.

What is CCT and CRI?

Mark

Colour temperature is irrelevant if the emission spectrum, unlike an
incandescent lamp, has many 'holes'.

Not at all. You can read up on cri if you wish

The whole point is that some frequencies are overdone and some are absent.

Hmm. While Wikipedia is not a primary reference, it does say the
following things about
CRI (Colour Rendering Index) and CCT (Correlated Colour Temperatue)

CRI URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

"Although an objective measure, the CRI has come under a fair bit of
criticism in recent years as it does not always correlate well with the
subjective color-rendering quality for real scenes, particularly for
modern (e.g. fluorescent) lightsources with spikey emission spectra, or
white LEDs. It is understood that the CIE is looking at developing
newer color-rendering performance metrics."

CCT URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature
"The Kelvin system for lamp description works well for an incandescent
light bulb. Since these lamps are very nearly black body radiators,
their chromaticity coordinates land directly on the Planckian locus in
the CIExy color space. Fluorescent lighting is not incandescent and
presents a new challenge. Fluorescent lamps are made using myriad
combinations of phosphors and gases. The illumination that they produce
is almost never described by a point in color space which lies on the
Planckian locus.

The question then becomes how to describe the quality of light from a
fluorescent lamp. The method used is called the "correlated color
temperature", which a method for assigning a color temperature to a
color near, but not on, the Planckian locus. The above plot shows lines
crossing the Planckian locus for which the correlated color temperature
is the same. Nevertheless, the colors are not the same, and the method
gives only an approximate specification of a particular color. Due to
this shortcoming, the rated CCT of any fluorescent tube does not
completely specify its color."

Sid

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 09:16:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

If annual heating bills were - say - £5000 instead of £500, and the cost
of fuel in terms of the prices of manufactured items that are energy
intensive were to ripple through, the pattern of energy usage and
generation would in time reflect that: No need to be 'ecologically
minded' - straight cost benefit analysis would dictate that it would be
worth installing a £20,000 integrated energy management system, in a
house, if it saved £3000 a year....in fuel bills.

True, but although people don't like being dictated to by govt, they
don't like being dictated to by economics either!

People make choices all the time that don't make economic sense,
buying a 4x4 to drive in town, filling their kitchen with halogen
spots, having their heating at 25°C in winter.

If energy prices rise fairly gradually without a sudden step change,
there might even be a 'boiled frog' type situation where people pay
more and more for energy without considering changing anything.

cheers,
Pete.

yped


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
David Hansen typed


On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:46:23 +0100 someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

So what should I do with my hall light fitting?

It takes 3 mini-globe bulbs, which are rather shorter than anything I
saw on lightbulbs direct.

At the moment there may be nothing available for it.


And that is a location where I'd otherwise accept a cfl. Great!

I do not intend to change my lounge lamps, though it might be possible.
I'd need to replace 18 * 40w bulbs.

There are usually 5 bulbs lit at any one time.

Both theses situations are easy to address. You just dont want cfl

You're right of course, but I also don't want to change my light fittings.

Even cheap cfls would represent a substantial outlay if I were to
replace 20 lamps.

Some of the bulbs here have not been changed since I bought the house
last century.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

yped

much informative matter snipped

Nevertheless, the colors are not the same, and the method
gives only an approximate specification of a particular color. Due to
this shortcoming, the rated CCT of any fluorescent tube does not
completely specify its color."

Coo! Just wot I were tryin' to say but betterer edumacated. Fanks!

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

much informative matter snipped

Coo! Just wot I were tryin' to say but betterer edumacated. Fanks!

You're welcome. It all came from Wikipedia, which is often a good step
towards finding better sourced information. Please cross check any
facts with other independent sources before taking action on the
information offered, 'though - Wikipedia is not guaranteed to be
correct - and by its very nature is guaranteed to be incorrect at
times. It's usually a good 'starter for 10' 'though.

Cheers,

Sid