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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Passively-cooled larder design
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ |
#2
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I can only come up with: excavate a cellar. Our pantry is a wallk in, I think that's the problem. Every time you open the door the temperature rises, even with a ventilated opening to the outside and being on a sheltered east side of the house. The house we had before this was very small - one room on the ground floor, one on the first floor, but it had a cellar, it was wonderful! Mary -- JJ |
#3
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Passively-cooled larder design
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 +0000, Jason wrote:
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. dunno, but suggestions where I'd look: Centre for Alternative Technology texts on passive solar building John Seymour's 'Self Sufficiency' (book) I'd guess that the principles are to have a poorly-insulated floor in contact with the ground, a poorly-insulated outside wall that doesn't get sun (so it tends to radiate heat), heavy (high thermal mass) materials (e.g. traditional slab shelf) and good insulation from the inside of the house. I don't see why you shouldn't also build-in a fridge and/or freezer through the wall of the larder and with the back of the appliance outside the larder. |
#4
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Passively-cooled larder design
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote:
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? Build it on a North wall. Not next to oven, fridge, washer/dryer etc. No windows. Tile it throughout. Tile or marble shelves. Insulate side walls, and door if possible. Airbrick top and bottom, with closer for summer. We've got one with most of the above. I made a sandwich today and the butter was still a little firm! -- Nigel M |
#5
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Passively-cooled larder design
Nigel Molesworth wrote: On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote: Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? Build it on a North wall. Good stuff; I'd think the north wall & cellar ideas are as far as you'll get with passive cooling, unless you can find a way to incorporate some evaporative cooling. CIBSE have a non-members discussion forum here; http://www.cibse.org/index.cfm?go=di...eads&ForumID=1 You'd need to register, but ask there in hope of some well- informed opinions. |
#6
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Passively-cooled larder design
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:39:35 +0100, Nigel Molesworth
wrote: On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote: Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? Build it on a North wall. Not next to oven, fridge, washer/dryer etc. No windows. Tile it throughout. Tile or marble shelves. Insulate side walls, and door if possible. Airbrick top and bottom, with closer for summer. We've got one with most of the above. I made a sandwich today and the butter was still a little firm! How about arranging for the air to come from under the centre of the house (assuming a suspended floor) where it is presumably cooler than inside or outside the house? DG |
#7
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Passively-cooled larder design
In message , Mary Fisher
writes but it had a cellar, it was wonderful! Yep, great, currently posting from my lovely cool basement office/workshop while the rest of the house bakes. -- Due to the very painful lack of quoting Google promotes, all Usenet posts originating from Google users are now deleted unseen, this means if you post from Google I won't see it. N.B. the preceding sig is copyright free, feel free to copy it. == bof at bof dot me dot uk == |
#8
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Passively-cooled larder design
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:55:04 +0100, Derek ^ wrote:
How about arranging for the air to come from under the centre of the house (assuming a suspended floor) where it is presumably cooler than inside or outside the house? I've often though about this to cool a room, decided I'd run out of cold air very quickly. I guess with a larder a small slow fan would work OK. -- Nigel M |
#9
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Passively-cooled larder design
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote: I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool nights. Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where most probably the whole lot could be solar powered. DG |
#10
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Derek ^" wrote in message ... On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:39:35 +0100, Nigel Molesworth wrote: On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote: Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? Build it on a North wall. Not next to oven, fridge, washer/dryer etc. No windows. Tile it throughout. Tile or marble shelves. Insulate side walls, and door if possible. Airbrick top and bottom, with closer for summer. We've got one with most of the above. I made a sandwich today and the butter was still a little firm! How about arranging for the air to come from under the centre of the house (assuming a suspended floor) where it is presumably cooler than inside or outside the house? Most of the house has a floor raised about a metre above the soft ground. Being near the sea, there seems to be no lack of moisture in the ground, so any air flow would be cooled down pretty well through evaporation, so perhaps that would work. However, the bit of the kitchen we would like to extend has a solid floor, but depending where the larder is built, it may be adjacent to the step where the raised floor meets the solid floor - an airbrick or two may work there. -- JJ |
#11
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... "Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I can only come up with: excavate a cellar. Tempting! We are built on soft clay, and there is a metre or so access to most of the underside of the house. I expect it would be quite a major job though, underpinning all the walls (I'm not sure there is much of a foundation for this Vistorian house - it just kind of floats there on a few lines of bricks). Our pantry is a wallk in, I think that's the problem. Every time you open the door the temperature rises, even with a ventilated opening to the outside and being on a sheltered east side of the house. That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation. The house we had before this was very small - one room on the ground floor, one on the first floor, but it had a cellar, it was wonderful! Mary -- JJ |
#12
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. Thanks for the suggestions and tips everyone! Some good leads to follow up, confirmation of what I suspected was needed, and confirmation that I'm not mad wanting such a thing in the first place. -- JJ |
#13
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Passively-cooled larder design
Jason wrote:
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ There are some ideas about passive cooling on these pages which might be useful: http://www.azsolarcenter.com/design/passive-3.html -- -- apax63 'at' dsl 'dot' pipex 'dot' com |
#14
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message .uk... .... That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation. Marble slab shelving used to be a feature of all the pantries I remember. Colin Bignell |
#15
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Derek ^" wrote in message ... On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool nights. Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where most probably the whole lot could be solar powered. The OP did specify passive ... there are lots of non-passive methods :-( Mary DG |
#16
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message .uk... Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I can only come up with: excavate a cellar. Tempting! We are built on soft clay, and there is a metre or so access to most of the underside of the house. I expect it would be quite a major job though, underpinning all the walls (I'm not sure there is much of a foundation for this Vistorian house - it just kind of floats there on a few lines of bricks). Our house is an interwar semi - 1937 - but it has no foundations either, just 'a few lines of bricks'. That's why we've never excavated a cellar. That and being on a hill ... the drive is all that's between us and next door's - 4' below. It would have been a major job but worth it in the long run except that we had no money all those years ago. Now we have money but less energy and time :-( I hadn't realised you were in UK, sorry. Our pantry is a wallk in, I think that's the problem. Every time you open the door the temperature rises, even with a ventilated opening to the outside and being on a sheltered east side of the house. That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation. Yes, but when the ambient temperature rises (like recently) the temperature of that mass rises too. It also keep that temperature for longer than we'd like. Mary |
#17
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message . uk... "Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. Thanks for the suggestions and tips everyone! Some good leads to follow up, confirmation of what I suspected was needed, and confirmation that I'm not mad wanting such a thing in the first place. Oh you're not! I'd LOVE a cool pantry. I can't understand how people manage in modern houses where there's no food storage at all except cupboards in the kitchen. But it seems to me that many people don't store food, just packets, tins and freezer packs :-( Mary |
#18
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Passively-cooled larder design
On 10 Jun 2006 09:49:04 -0700, Aidan wrote:
Good stuff; I'd think the north wall & cellar ideas are as far as you'll get with passive cooling, unless you can find a way to incorporate some evaporative cooling. Air intake from below plants, natural evaporative cooling and from a shaded area. I think most of keeping a space cool is down to thermal interia of the materials it's made of, so the suggestion of good solid stone, concrete (not lightweight blocks...) walls, solid non insulated florr, brick supports for slab shelving all make for a lot of thermal interia. Our solid stone house stays lovely and cool (lower 20's) in the summer despite a south facing living room and external temps well above 25C and people and electricals all pumping out heat. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
#19
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... "Derek ^" wrote in message ... On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool nights. Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where most probably the whole lot could be solar powered. The OP did specify passive ... there are lots of non-passive methods :-( I guess even a tiny fan to help now and then would be fine. Passive is ideal, but if a helping hand improves it beyond what passive could provide, then so much the better. I've seen the ultimate lader at Woodchester mansion, that has a chimney on the roof designed to draw up air in the slighest breeze from any direction. The 'flue' opens up in the larder room, and through evaporation, manages to keep the room a good 5 degrees cooler than just outside the room. -- JJ |
#20
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Passively-cooled larder design
"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message ... "Jason" wrote in message .uk... ... That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation. Marble slab shelving used to be a feature of all the pantries I remember. Some of the council houses around here, built in the fifties, have solid concrete slabs about three inches thick. I suspect they were cast in-situ, and serve the same job as the marble. -- JJ |
#21
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Tom" wrote in message ... Jason wrote: Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ There are some ideas about passive cooling on these pages which might be useful: http://www.azsolarcenter.com/design/passive-3.html Cool - very handy. Thanks. |
#22
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... "Jason" wrote in message . uk... "Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. Thanks for the suggestions and tips everyone! Some good leads to follow up, confirmation of what I suspected was needed, and confirmation that I'm not mad wanting such a thing in the first place. Oh you're not! I'd LOVE a cool pantry. I can't understand how people manage in modern houses where there's no food storage at all except cupboards in the kitchen. But it seems to me that many people don't store food, just packets, tins and freezer packs :-( I live by the sea in the far North of England, so it never gets *too* hot, and never gets *too* cold. What we do have, is a cool sea breeze, so the air is seldom still, and fierce gales that blow down from the North. The breeze I could probably make use of, but the gales certainly need to be kept out of the main living area of the house. For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the room is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on energy use to keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate the need. -- JJ |
#23
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message k... "Tom" wrote in message ... Jason wrote: Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ There are some ideas about passive cooling on these pages which might be useful: http://www.azsolarcenter.com/design/passive-3.html Cool - very handy. Thanks. ========================== You might consider incorporating unglazed earthenware pipes or tiles into your design. Old fashioned butter and milk coolers were made from clay and had to be soaked in water periodically but worked pretty well. A scaled up version might be possible. Cic. |
#24
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Passively-cooled larder design
In article ,
Derek ^ writes: I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool nights. Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where most probably the whole lot could be solar powered. I have an alternate loft hatch cover which gets put in place in the summer, which has a rather large fan in it to draw air through the house and expel it through the loft (also cooling the very hot loft). It is under the control of my home automation system. I haven't actually spent much time working out the optimum rule for switching it on, but it currently switches on when the loft reaches 25C. I often switch it on manually in the evening too to draw in the cooler nighttime air. -- Andrew Gabriel |
#25
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message . uk... "Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... "Derek ^" wrote in message ... On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool nights. Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where most probably the whole lot could be solar powered. The OP did specify passive ... there are lots of non-passive methods :-( I guess even a tiny fan to help now and then would be fine. Passive is ideal, but if a helping hand improves it beyond what passive could provide, then so much the better. I've seen the ultimate lader at Woodchester mansion, that has a chimney on the roof designed to draw up air in the slighest breeze from any direction. The 'flue' opens up in the larder room, and through evaporation, manages to keep the room a good 5 degrees cooler than just outside the room. Is your house like Woodchester Mansion??? Heavens :-) The thing is that in past centuries there wasn't central heating. Even our kitchens are heated these days, if the pantry opens off a heated kitchen it will accrue some of that heat. Our kitchens are smaller than those of the past, in such a house as Woodchester the whole volume of the kitchen and the house itself would be slower to warm in weather such as we've had in the last few days. There's no comparison. But yes, if you're prepared to compromise from 100% passive there are many ways to keep a pantry/larder cool, not that I'm convinced that a tiny fan would do the dibs. Mary -- JJ |
#26
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message .uk... "nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message ... "Jason" wrote in message .uk... ... That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation. Marble slab shelving used to be a feature of all the pantries I remember. Some of the council houses around here, built in the fifties, have solid concrete slabs about three inches thick. I suspect they were cast in-situ, and serve the same job as the marble. Our house has one of those, it's 3" thick and tiled. It becomes the same temperature as the rest of the kitchen :-( Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden atmosphere? Mary -- JJ |
#27
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message .uk... I live by the sea in the far North of England, so it never gets *too* hot, and never gets *too* cold. What we do have, is a cool sea breeze, so the air is seldom still, and fierce gales that blow down from the North. The breeze I could probably make use of, but the gales certainly need to be kept out of the main living area of the house. Quite. Anything 'passive' will be a compromise. For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the room is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on energy use to keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate the need. I would too. I've had to learn to live with it. Inner city Leeds is comparitively warm. I have nowhere to air-dry hams and can't even keep root vegetables through the winter :-( Mary -- JJ |
#28
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Passively-cooled larder design
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:57:37 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote: For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the room is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on energy use to keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate the need. I would too. I've had to learn to live with it. Inner city Leeds is comparitively warm. I have nowhere to air-dry hams Wasn't York famous for hams, just 20 miles away? How do the Spaniards manage it ? DG |
#29
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Derek ^" wrote in message ... On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:57:37 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the room is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on energy use to keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate the need. I would too. I've had to learn to live with it. Inner city Leeds is comparitively warm. I have nowhere to air-dry hams Wasn't York famous for hams, just 20 miles away? 25 in fact. But York hams are dry cured, not air dried. How do the Spaniards manage it ? They probably have wind machines these days. You don't think that it's naturally air dried do you? If so, you probably think that sun dried tomatoes are laid out in the sun ... :-) Mary DG |
#30
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Cicero" wrote in message o.uk... ... ========================== You might consider incorporating unglazed earthenware pipes or tiles into your design. Old fashioned butter and milk coolers were made from clay and had to be soaked in water periodically but worked pretty well. A scaled up version might be possible. Yes, I have one of those. Before we discovered 'Lurpack Spreadable', it kept the butter at just the right temperature throughout the summer. It just needed topping up with water every couple of days. -- JJ |
#31
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message . uk... "Cicero" wrote in message o.uk... ... ========================== You might consider incorporating unglazed earthenware pipes or tiles into your design. Old fashioned butter and milk coolers were made from clay and had to be soaked in water periodically but worked pretty well. A scaled up version might be possible. Yes, I have one of those. Before we discovered 'Lurpack Spreadable', it kept the butter at just the right temperature throughout the summer. It just needed topping up with water every couple of days. -- JJ I think one brand was called something like "Osokool".... It was a white block of something like a cubic foot, walls about an inch or so thick with a depression in the top into which water was poured to keep the whole thing damp. Evaporation of the water from the porous walls kept the innards about 10 degrees cooler inside... Nick |
#32
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Passively-cooled larder design
Jason wrote:
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. Great idea Jason. This should be one of those desirables for a well designed house. There are a few options. I'd go with a small fan and differential thermostat for a start. IME this has knocked 4-6C (and occasionally as much as 10C) off evening and night time indoor temp without any insulation. Add insulation and lots of thermal mass, eg cast in situ concrete, and you'll see a temp reduction all day as well. The diff stat is important, running a fan on a timed schedule did not deliver anything like as much benefit. A cupboard would only need a tiny 3" computer case fan, with 2 exterior holes for air inlet and outlet. Holes should have metal mesh to keep rodents out and insect mesh to keep bugs and debris out. You'll want the puter fan to be silent, so I'd mount it on rubber bushes so it doesnt use the all as a sounding board. Use a variable V wallwart to power it, so you can select 12,9,7.5 or 6v. This reduces consumption and noise if full power isnt needed, and it probably wont be. A simple labyrinth over the fan is the best way to kill fan noise, so if you find your heavily constructed cupboard doesnt silence it, you can make a very effective labyrinth out of sheet steel with 2 layers of cardboard glued onto it. Or chipboard would probably be easier. If you want to take the cooling further, there are 2 simple ways to chill it. 1. Take the inlet air through a plastic pipe sitting in a trough of water. A standard ballcock keeps the trough filled. The water evaporates, cooling the inlet stream. The pipe barrier keeps the inlet air dry, you dont want to get the cupboard damp. 2. Bury a plastic pipe underground and bring in the air through that. Temp underground is well below ambient in summer. Cooling a house this way needs an awful lot of pipe, but a small cupboard doesnt. If you must have something totally passive, larger air holes with one way dampers would work, waiting for the wind to blow through. But this would require more vent area than forced air, plus actuators to keep the dampers shut when required. I'd go with the fan, its much easier. There are of course other options. Heat pipes act like one way heat valves, and are fully passive, but a fan and stat are a lot simpler and controllable. Heat pipes have been used in custom fridges to provide this type of cooling during winter, reducing energy consumption. I wouldnt use air from under the house as it'll be damp and musty, not whats wanted. If using evaporative cooling, keep the damp separate to the intake air. Plastic pipe makes a very simple heat exchanger. Lastly, I suppose another alternative is to run the cold water supply pipe to the house through the larder before it goes anywhere else. This comes in at a nice cold underground temp. If you do that, you'll need a drip tray, as condensation may form on the pipes. Add fins to the pipe for greater heat exchange. NT |
#33
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Passively-cooled larder design
Mary Fisher wrote:
Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden atmosphere? Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid through the material cools the jug via evaporation. Now you need something that is only permeable on one side, and that side is outside the house. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#34
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ How about running the incoming water main through the pantry via a matrix of copper pipes attached to a wall? Dave |
#35
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Passively-cooled larder design
Dave wrote:
"Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ How about running the incoming water main through the pantry via a matrix of copper pipes attached to a wall? Thats no bad idea. When I was laying the kitchen slate floor a few summers ago...very very hot...and using considerable quantities of water to make cement and wash the cement off the buggers afterwards, the incoming pipes were DRIPPING with condensation..water tends to the diurnal mean of the temp range over several days... Dave |
#36
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Passively-cooled larder design
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden atmosphere? Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid through the material cools the jug via evaporation. Yes - and I use that method a lot when under canvas, have done for 60 years. But it's not the same thing as coolking a larder in a building. Mary |
#37
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Passively-cooled larder design
Mary Fisher wrote:
Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid through the material cools the jug via evaporation. Yes - and I use that method a lot when under canvas, have done for 60 years. But it's not the same thing as coolking a larder in a building. No reason it could not be with a bit of lateral thought. Coolroom on the outside of the building with a permeable panel when the window might be, backed with a small reservoir made from something non permeable. The outside surface would support the evaporation and the whole reservoir would then cool. This would give a large cool surface in the room. You could enhance the evaporation with a double skin on the outside and a solar PV panel driving a fan to add some forced circulation through the evaporating layers. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#38
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Passively-cooled larder design
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:02:18 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden atmosphere? Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid through the material cools the jug via evaporation. Yes - and I use that method a lot when under canvas, have done for 60 years. But it's not the same thing as coolking a larder in a building. In most Victorian pantries it's exactly the same thing, no DPC so the pantry is cooled by water evaporating from the porous brick. |
#39
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ Jason, you've had me searching the house for a favourite book - Elizabeth David's Harvest of the Cold Months (Penguin 1996). This is a scholarly but readable account of the history of ice making and storage over the world, including India, Persia, the Levant and other hot and dry places. If you can get a copy (Amazon have some used ones) it won't solve your immediate problem but would be worth reading, it might give you some ideas :-) Mary |
#40
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Passively-cooled larder design
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... "Jason" wrote in message news Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate something like this would be great. I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to start. -- JJ Jason, you've had me searching the house for a favourite book - Elizabeth David's Harvest of the Cold Months (Penguin 1996). This is a scholarly but readable account of the history of ice making and storage over the world, including India, Persia, the Levant and other hot and dry places. If you can get a copy (Amazon have some used ones) it won't solve your immediate problem but would be worth reading, it might give you some ideas :-) I suspect with changing climate (and bigger extremes in the South East) that idea may be something that could be rejuvanated. Imagine every new home being built with an ice-house :-) -- JJ |
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