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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We
are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate
something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ


  #2   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it I
can only come up with: excavate a cellar.

Our pantry is a wallk in, I think that's the problem. Every time you open
the door the temperature rises, even with a ventilated opening to the
outside and being on a sheltered east side of the house.

The house we had before this was very small - one room on the ground floor,
one on the first floor, but it had a cellar, it was wonderful!

Mary

-- JJ




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John Stumbles
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 +0000, Jason wrote:

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We
are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate
something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.


dunno, but suggestions where I'd look:

Centre for Alternative Technology
texts on passive solar building
John Seymour's 'Self Sufficiency' (book)

I'd guess that the principles are to have a poorly-insulated floor in
contact with the ground, a poorly-insulated outside wall that
doesn't get sun (so it tends to radiate heat), heavy (high
thermal mass) materials (e.g. traditional slab shelf) and good insulation
from the inside of the house. I don't see why you shouldn't also build-in
a fridge and/or freezer through the wall of the larder and with the back
of the appliance outside the larder.

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Nigel Molesworth
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote:

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen?


Build it on a North wall.
Not next to oven, fridge, washer/dryer etc.
No windows.
Tile it throughout.
Tile or marble shelves.
Insulate side walls, and door if possible.
Airbrick top and bottom, with closer for summer.

We've got one with most of the above. I made a sandwich today and the
butter was still a little firm!

--
Nigel M
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Aidan
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


Nigel Molesworth wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote:

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen?


Build it on a North wall.


Good stuff; I'd think the north wall & cellar ideas are as far as
you'll get with passive cooling, unless you can find a way to
incorporate some evaporative cooling.

CIBSE have a non-members discussion forum here;
http://www.cibse.org/index.cfm?go=di...eads&ForumID=1

You'd need to register, but ask there in hope of some well- informed
opinions.



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Derek ^
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:39:35 +0100, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote:

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen?


Build it on a North wall.
Not next to oven, fridge, washer/dryer etc.
No windows.
Tile it throughout.
Tile or marble shelves.
Insulate side walls, and door if possible.
Airbrick top and bottom, with closer for summer.

We've got one with most of the above. I made a sandwich today and the
butter was still a little firm!


How about arranging for the air to come from under the centre of the
house (assuming a suspended floor) where it is presumably cooler than
inside or outside the house?

DG

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bof
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

In message , Mary Fisher
writes

but it had a cellar, it was wonderful!


Yep, great, currently posting from my lovely cool basement
office/workshop while the rest of the house bakes.

--
Due to the very painful lack of quoting Google promotes, all Usenet
posts originating from Google users are now deleted unseen, this means
if you post from Google I won't see it. N.B. the preceding sig is
copyright free, feel free to copy it. == bof at bof dot me dot uk ==
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Nigel Molesworth
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:55:04 +0100, Derek ^ wrote:

How about arranging for the air to come from under the centre of the
house (assuming a suspended floor) where it is presumably cooler than
inside or outside the house?


I've often though about this to cool a room, decided I'd run out of
cold air very quickly.

I guess with a larder a small slow fan would work OK.

--
Nigel M
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Derek ^
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it


I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little
Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c
outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system
overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing
in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool
nights.

Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a
worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air
conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where
most probably the whole lot could be solar powered.

DG

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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Derek ^" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:39:35 +0100, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:54:27 GMT, Jason wrote:

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen?


Build it on a North wall.
Not next to oven, fridge, washer/dryer etc.
No windows.
Tile it throughout.
Tile or marble shelves.
Insulate side walls, and door if possible.
Airbrick top and bottom, with closer for summer.

We've got one with most of the above. I made a sandwich today and the
butter was still a little firm!


How about arranging for the air to come from under the centre of the
house (assuming a suspended floor) where it is presumably cooler than
inside or outside the house?


Most of the house has a floor raised about a metre above the soft ground.
Being near the sea, there seems to be no lack of moisture in the ground, so
any air flow would be cooled down pretty well through evaporation, so
perhaps that would work. However, the bit of the kitchen we would like to
extend has a solid floor, but depending where the larder is built, it may be
adjacent to the step where the raised floor meets the solid floor - an
airbrick or two may work there.

-- JJ




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Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.


I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it
I can only come up with: excavate a cellar.

Tempting! We are built on soft clay, and there is a metre or so access to
most of the underside of the house. I expect it would be quite a major job
though, underpinning all the walls (I'm not sure there is much of a
foundation for this Vistorian house - it just kind of floats there on a few
lines of bricks).

Our pantry is a wallk in, I think that's the problem. Every time you open
the door the temperature rises, even with a ventilated opening to the
outside and being on a sheltered east side of the house.


That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend
on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would
help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation.

The house we had before this was very small - one room on the ground
floor, one on the first floor, but it had a cellar, it was wonderful!

Mary

-- JJ



  #12   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

Thanks for the suggestions and tips everyone! Some good leads to follow up,
confirmation of what I suspected was needed, and confirmation that I'm not
mad wanting such a thing in the first place.

-- JJ


  #13   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design

Jason wrote:
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We
are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate
something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ


There are some ideas about passive cooling on these pages which might be
useful:

http://www.azsolarcenter.com/design/passive-3.html

--

--

apax63 'at' dsl 'dot' pipex 'dot' com
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nightjar
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
.uk...
....
That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend
on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would
help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation.


Marble slab shelving used to be a feature of all the pantries I remember.

Colin Bignell


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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Derek ^" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it


I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little
Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c
outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system
overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing
in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool
nights.

Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a
worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air
conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where
most probably the whole lot could be solar powered.


The OP did specify passive ... there are lots of non-passive methods :-(

Mary

DG





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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
.uk...

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.


I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it
I can only come up with: excavate a cellar.


Tempting! We are built on soft clay, and there is a metre or so access to
most of the underside of the house. I expect it would be quite a major job
though, underpinning all the walls (I'm not sure there is much of a
foundation for this Vistorian house - it just kind of floats there on a
few lines of bricks).


Our house is an interwar semi - 1937 - but it has no foundations either,
just 'a few lines of bricks'. That's why we've never excavated a cellar.
That and being on a hill ... the drive is all that's between us and next
door's - 4' below.

It would have been a major job but worth it in the long run except that we
had no money all those years ago. Now we have money but less energy and time
:-(

I hadn't realised you were in UK, sorry.

Our pantry is a wallk in, I think that's the problem. Every time you open
the door the temperature rises, even with a ventilated opening to the
outside and being on a sheltered east side of the house.


That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will depend
on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and stone would
help, and that would need to be on the inside of any insulation.


Yes, but when the ambient temperature rises (like recently) the temperature
of that mass rises too. It also keep that temperature for longer than we'd
like.

Mary


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Mary Fisher
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
. uk...

"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.


Thanks for the suggestions and tips everyone! Some good leads to follow
up, confirmation of what I suspected was needed, and confirmation that I'm
not mad wanting such a thing in the first place.

Oh you're not! I'd LOVE a cool pantry.

I can't understand how people manage in modern houses where there's no food
storage at all except cupboards in the kitchen. But it seems to me that many
people don't store food, just packets, tins and freezer packs :-(

Mary


  #18   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Dave Liquorice
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design

On 10 Jun 2006 09:49:04 -0700, Aidan wrote:

Good stuff; I'd think the north wall & cellar ideas are as far as
you'll get with passive cooling, unless you can find a way to
incorporate some evaporative cooling.


Air intake from below plants, natural evaporative cooling and from a
shaded area. I think most of keeping a space cool is down to thermal
interia of the materials it's made of, so the suggestion of good solid
stone, concrete (not lightweight blocks...) walls, solid non insulated
florr, brick supports for slab shelving all make for a lot of thermal
interia.

Our solid stone house stays lovely and cool (lower 20's) in the summer
despite a south facing living room and external temps well above 25C and
people and electricals all pumping out heat.


--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



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Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Derek ^" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about it


I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little
Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c
outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system
overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing
in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool
nights.

Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a
worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air
conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where
most probably the whole lot could be solar powered.


The OP did specify passive ... there are lots of non-passive methods :-(


I guess even a tiny fan to help now and then would be fine. Passive is
ideal, but if a helping hand improves it beyond what passive could provide,
then so much the better.

I've seen the ultimate lader at Woodchester mansion, that has a chimney on
the roof designed to draw up air in the slighest breeze from any direction.
The 'flue' opens up in the larder room, and through evaporation, manages to
keep the room a good 5 degrees cooler than just outside the room.

-- JJ


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Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Jason" wrote in message
.uk...
...
That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will
depend on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and
stone would help, and that would need to be on the inside of any
insulation.


Marble slab shelving used to be a feature of all the pantries I remember.


Some of the council houses around here, built in the fifties, have solid
concrete slabs about three inches thick. I suspect they were cast in-situ,
and serve the same job as the marble.

-- JJ




  #21   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Jason
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Tom" wrote in message
...
Jason wrote:
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ


There are some ideas about passive cooling on these pages which might be
useful:

http://www.azsolarcenter.com/design/passive-3.html


Cool - very handy. Thanks.


  #22   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Jason
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Jason" wrote in message
. uk...

"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.


Thanks for the suggestions and tips everyone! Some good leads to follow
up, confirmation of what I suspected was needed, and confirmation that
I'm not mad wanting such a thing in the first place.


Oh you're not! I'd LOVE a cool pantry.

I can't understand how people manage in modern houses where there's no
food storage at all except cupboards in the kitchen. But it seems to me
that many people don't store food, just packets, tins and freezer packs
:-(

I live by the sea in the far North of England, so it never gets *too* hot,
and never gets *too* cold. What we do have, is a cool sea breeze, so the air
is seldom still, and fierce gales that blow down from the North. The breeze
I could probably make use of, but the gales certainly need to be kept out of
the main living area of the house.

For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the room
is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on energy use to
keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate the need.

-- JJ


  #23   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Cicero
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
k...

"Tom" wrote in message
...
Jason wrote:
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ


There are some ideas about passive cooling on these pages which might be
useful:

http://www.azsolarcenter.com/design/passive-3.html


Cool - very handy. Thanks.



==========================
You might consider incorporating unglazed earthenware pipes or tiles into
your design. Old fashioned butter and milk coolers were made from clay and
had to be soaked in water periodically but worked pretty well. A scaled up
version might be possible.

Cic.


  #24   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andrew Gabriel
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design

In article ,
Derek ^ writes:

I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little
Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c
outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system
overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing
in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool
nights.

Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a
worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air
conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where
most probably the whole lot could be solar powered.


I have an alternate loft hatch cover which gets put in place in the
summer, which has a rather large fan in it to draw air through the
house and expel it through the loft (also cooling the very hot loft).
It is under the control of my home automation system. I haven't
actually spent much time working out the optimum rule for switching
it on, but it currently switches on when the loft reaches 25C.
I often switch it on manually in the evening too to draw in the
cooler nighttime air.

--
Andrew Gabriel
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
. uk...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Derek ^" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


I'd love to do this too but it seems, after 43 years of thinking about
it

I only started thinking about it at 23-30pm last night when my little
Chinese weather station told me it was 26c inside the house and 16.6c
outside. Thinking at the time that running a ventilation system
overnight might result in the house starting the day cooler, bearing
in mind that hot clear sunny days tend to be followed by clear cool
nights.

Not passive but a fan and a "smartbox" of electronics could make a
worthwhile improvement and be better for the environment than air
conditioning. On a smaller scale it could be applied to a larder where
most probably the whole lot could be solar powered.


The OP did specify passive ... there are lots of non-passive methods :-(


I guess even a tiny fan to help now and then would be fine. Passive is
ideal, but if a helping hand improves it beyond what passive could
provide, then so much the better.

I've seen the ultimate lader at Woodchester mansion, that has a chimney on
the roof designed to draw up air in the slighest breeze from any
direction. The 'flue' opens up in the larder room, and through
evaporation, manages to keep the room a good 5 degrees cooler than just
outside the room.


Is your house like Woodchester Mansion???

Heavens :-)

The thing is that in past centuries there wasn't central heating. Even our
kitchens are heated these days, if the pantry opens off a heated kitchen it
will accrue some of that heat.

Our kitchens are smaller than those of the past, in such a house as
Woodchester the whole volume of the kitchen and the house itself would be
slower to warm in weather such as we've had in the last few days. There's no
comparison.

But yes, if you're prepared to compromise from 100% passive there are many
ways to keep a pantry/larder cool, not that I'm convinced that a tiny fan
would do the dibs.

Mary

-- JJ






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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
.uk...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Jason" wrote in message
.uk...
...
That's what I would ideally like. I guess the temperature rise will
depend on the thermal mass inside the room - lots of heavy brick and
stone would help, and that would need to be on the inside of any
insulation.


Marble slab shelving used to be a feature of all the pantries I remember.


Some of the council houses around here, built in the fifties, have solid
concrete slabs about three inches thick. I suspect they were cast in-situ,
and serve the same job as the marble.


Our house has one of those, it's 3" thick and tiled. It becomes the same
temperature as the rest of the kitchen :-(

Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden atmosphere?

Mary

-- JJ




  #27   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
.uk...


I live by the sea in the far North of England, so it never gets *too* hot,
and never gets *too* cold. What we do have, is a cool sea breeze, so the
air is seldom still, and fierce gales that blow down from the North. The
breeze I could probably make use of, but the gales certainly need to be
kept out of the main living area of the house.


Quite. Anything 'passive' will be a compromise.

For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the
room is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on energy
use to keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate the
need.


I would too. I've had to learn to live with it.

Inner city Leeds is comparitively warm. I have nowhere to air-dry hams and
can't even keep root vegetables through the winter :-(

Mary

-- JJ




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Derek ^
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:57:37 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the
room is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on energy
use to keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate the
need.


I would too. I've had to learn to live with it.

Inner city Leeds is comparitively warm. I have nowhere to air-dry hams


Wasn't York famous for hams, just 20 miles away?

How do the Spaniards manage it ?

DG

  #29   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Derek ^" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:57:37 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


For fruit and vegetables, the fridge is too cold (and too dry) and the
room is too warm. I would also like to be a little less reliant on
energy
use to keep things cool, especially when careful design could obviate
the
need.


I would too. I've had to learn to live with it.

Inner city Leeds is comparitively warm. I have nowhere to air-dry hams


Wasn't York famous for hams, just 20 miles away?


25 in fact. But York hams are dry cured, not air dried.

How do the Spaniards manage it ?


They probably have wind machines these days. You don't think that it's
naturally air dried do you? If so, you probably think that sun dried
tomatoes are laid out in the sun ... :-)

Mary

DG



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Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Cicero" wrote in message
o.uk...

...
==========================
You might consider incorporating unglazed earthenware pipes or tiles into
your design. Old fashioned butter and milk coolers were made from clay and
had to be soaked in water periodically but worked pretty well. A scaled up
version might be possible.


Yes, I have one of those. Before we discovered 'Lurpack Spreadable', it kept
the butter at just the right temperature throughout the summer. It just
needed topping up with water every couple of days.

-- JJ




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Nick
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
. uk...

"Cicero" wrote in message
o.uk...

...
==========================
You might consider incorporating unglazed earthenware pipes or tiles into
your design. Old fashioned butter and milk coolers were made from clay
and
had to be soaked in water periodically but worked pretty well. A scaled
up
version might be possible.


Yes, I have one of those. Before we discovered 'Lurpack Spreadable', it
kept the butter at just the right temperature throughout the summer. It
just needed topping up with water every couple of days.

-- JJ


I think one brand was called something like "Osokool"....

It was a white block of something like a cubic foot, walls about an inch or
so thick with a depression in the top into which water was poured to keep
the whole thing damp. Evaporation of the water from the porous walls kept
the innards about 10 degrees cooler inside...

Nick


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Default Passively-cooled larder design

Jason wrote:

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go about
designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a kitchen? We
are having some structural work done, and being able to incorporate
something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.



Great idea Jason. This should be one of those desirables for a well
designed house.

There are a few options. I'd go with a small fan and differential
thermostat for a start. IME this has knocked 4-6C (and occasionally as
much as 10C) off evening and night time indoor temp without any
insulation. Add insulation and lots of thermal mass, eg cast in situ
concrete, and you'll see a temp reduction all day as well.

The diff stat is important, running a fan on a timed schedule did not
deliver anything like as much benefit. A cupboard would only need a
tiny 3" computer case fan, with 2 exterior holes for air inlet and
outlet. Holes should have metal mesh to keep rodents out and insect
mesh to keep bugs and debris out.

You'll want the puter fan to be silent, so I'd mount it on rubber
bushes so it doesnt use the all as a sounding board. Use a variable V
wallwart to power it, so you can select 12,9,7.5 or 6v. This reduces
consumption and noise if full power isnt needed, and it probably wont
be. A simple labyrinth over the fan is the best way to kill fan noise,
so if you find your heavily constructed cupboard doesnt silence it, you
can make a very effective labyrinth out of sheet steel with 2 layers of
cardboard glued onto it. Or chipboard would probably be easier.


If you want to take the cooling further, there are 2 simple ways to
chill it.

1. Take the inlet air through a plastic pipe sitting in a trough of
water. A standard ballcock keeps the trough filled. The water
evaporates, cooling the inlet stream. The pipe barrier keeps the inlet
air dry, you dont want to get the cupboard damp.

2. Bury a plastic pipe underground and bring in the air through that.
Temp underground is well below ambient in summer. Cooling a house this
way needs an awful lot of pipe, but a small cupboard doesnt.


If you must have something totally passive, larger air holes with one
way dampers would work, waiting for the wind to blow through. But this
would require more vent area than forced air, plus actuators to keep
the dampers shut when required. I'd go with the fan, its much easier.

There are of course other options. Heat pipes act like one way heat
valves, and are fully passive, but a fan and stat are a lot simpler and
controllable. Heat pipes have been used in custom fridges to provide
this type of cooling during winter, reducing energy consumption.

I wouldnt use air from under the house as it'll be damp and musty, not
whats wanted. If using evaporative cooling, keep the damp separate to
the intake air. Plastic pipe makes a very simple heat exchanger.

Lastly, I suppose another alternative is to run the cold water supply
pipe to the house through the larder before it goes anywhere else. This
comes in at a nice cold underground temp. If you do that, you'll need a
drip tray, as condensation may form on the pipes. Add fins to the pipe
for greater heat exchange.


NT

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John Rumm
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

Mary Fisher wrote:

Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden atmosphere?


Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries
use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid
through the material cools the jug via evaporation.

Now you need something that is only permeable on one side, and that side
is outside the house.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Dave
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ


How about running the incoming water main through the pantry via a matrix of
copper pipes attached to a wall?

Dave


  #35   Report Post  
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The Natural Philosopher
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

Dave wrote:
"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ



How about running the incoming water main through the pantry via a matrix of
copper pipes attached to a wall?


Thats no bad idea.

When I was laying the kitchen slate floor a few summers ago...very very
hot...and using considerable quantities of water to make cement and wash
the cement off the buggers afterwards, the incoming pipes were DRIPPING
with condensation..water tends to the diurnal mean of the temp range
over several days...



Dave




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Mary Fisher
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden
atmosphere?


Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries
use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid
through the material cools the jug via evaporation.


Yes - and I use that method a lot when under canvas, have done for 60 years.

But it's not the same thing as coolking a larder in a building.

Mary



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John Rumm
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

Mary Fisher wrote:

Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries
use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid
through the material cools the jug via evaporation.



Yes - and I use that method a lot when under canvas, have done for 60 years.

But it's not the same thing as coolking a larder in a building.


No reason it could not be with a bit of lateral thought. Coolroom on the
outside of the building with a permeable panel when the window might be,
backed with a small reservoir made from something non permeable. The
outside surface would support the evaporation and the whole reservoir
would then cool. This would give a large cool surface in the room.

You could enhance the evaporation with a double skin on the outside and
a solar PV panel driving a fan to add some forced circulation through
the evaporating layers.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #38   Report Post  
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Steve Firth
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:02:18 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Water cooling comes to mind ... but do you want a moisture laden
atmosphere?


Perhaps you need to think along the lines of how people in hot countries
use pottery jugs etc to keep liquids cool. The slow seepage of liquid
through the material cools the jug via evaporation.


Yes - and I use that method a lot when under canvas, have done for 60 years.

But it's not the same thing as coolking a larder in a building.


In most Victorian pantries it's exactly the same thing, no DPC so the
pantry is cooled by water evaporating from the porous brick.
  #39   Report Post  
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Mary Fisher
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ

Jason, you've had me searching the house for a favourite book - Elizabeth
David's Harvest of the Cold Months (Penguin 1996).

This is a scholarly but readable account of the history of ice making and
storage over the world, including India, Persia, the Levant and other hot
and dry places. If you can get a copy (Amazon have some used ones) it won't
solve your immediate problem but would be worth reading, it might give you
some ideas :-)

Mary




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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Jason
 
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Default Passively-cooled larder design


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Jason" wrote in message
news
Does anyone have any tips on where I can look for details on how to go
about designing/specifying/building a passively-cooled larder for a
kitchen? We are having some structural work done, and being able to
incorporate something like this would be great.

I've done a little search, but not really come up with anywhere good to
start.

-- JJ


Jason, you've had me searching the house for a favourite book - Elizabeth
David's Harvest of the Cold Months (Penguin 1996).

This is a scholarly but readable account of the history of ice making and
storage over the world, including India, Persia, the Levant and other hot
and dry places. If you can get a copy (Amazon have some used ones) it
won't solve your immediate problem but would be worth reading, it might
give you some ideas :-)

I suspect with changing climate (and bigger extremes in the South East) that
idea may be something that could be rejuvanated. Imagine every new home
being built with an ice-house :-)

-- JJ


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