I need to remake my internal phone wiring - the wiring I have is old
and damaged, and also very byzantine with redundant junction boxen and
sockets (I think there used to be two or more lines incoming) and
extension cables running over almost every architrave in the house.

What I want to do in this age of ADSL and DECT is simplify to a single
master socket by the PC with the phone base station & ADSL modem/router
plugged in.

I understand the connections well enough - I'm going to tear everything
out from the initial junction box onwards and start again. My question
is this: is there any reason I shouldn't use Cat5e cable for this?

I'm not going for structured cabling (tempting but I can't really
justify the effort and cost of retrofitting it), but I just happen to
have a lot of Cat5e cable. AFAIK it's far superior to bell wire, but
is there any problem I haven't thought of?

"John Carlyle-Clarke" wrote ...
I need to remake my internal phone wiring - the wiring I have is old
and damaged, and also very byzantine with redundant junction boxen and
sockets (I think there used to be two or more lines incoming) and
extension cables running over almost every architrave in the house.

What I want to do in this age of ADSL and DECT is simplify to a single
master socket by the PC with the phone base station & ADSL modem/router
plugged in.

I understand the connections well enough - I'm going to tear everything
out from the initial junction box onwards and start again. My question
is this: is there any reason I shouldn't use Cat5e cable for this?

I'm not going for structured cabling (tempting but I can't really
justify the effort and cost of retrofitting it), but I just happen to
have a lot of Cat5e cable. AFAIK it's far superior to bell wire, but
is there any problem I haven't thought of?

No problems apart from it being slightly thicker over all than 'phone wire,
and a bit lumpier in appearance - if it's going to be out of sight, no
problem. I think the purple LSF variant's quite pretty, too... for fixed
wiring, make sure it's solid core, IDCs don't take stranded reliably.

Dave H.
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Dave H." wrote in
:


"John Carlyle-Clarke" wrote ...

I need to remake my internal phone wiring [...] My question is
this: is there any reason I shouldn't use
Cat5e cable for this?

No problems apart from it being slightly thicker over all than
'phone wire, and a bit lumpier in appearance - if it's going to be
out of sight, no problem. I think the purple LSF variant's quite
pretty, too... for fixed wiring, make sure it's solid core, IDCs
don't take stranded reliably.

Thanks Dave. I do have some phone wire I bought some time ago, but
it's very, very thin. I've heard mention of "ADSL compatible phone
wire". Do you know if it really makes a difference?

I can't imagine that it would be that significant compared to the 4
miles of copper between my house and the exchange, but I could be
wrong.

The existing wiring is surface, and I think my new stuff will be too,
and I had considered that Cat5 is a bit more visible.

I need to remake my internal phone wiring - the wiring I have is old
and damaged, and also very byzantine with redundant junction boxen and
sockets (I think there used to be two or more lines incoming) and
extension cables running over almost every architrave in the house.

What I want to do in this age of ADSL and DECT is simplify to a single
master socket by the PC with the phone base station & ADSL
modem/router plugged in.

I understand the connections well enough - I'm going to tear
everything out from the initial junction box onwards and start again.
My question is this: is there any reason I shouldn't use Cat5e cable
for this?

I'm not going for structured cabling (tempting but I can't really
justify the effort and cost of retrofitting it), but I just happen to
have a lot of Cat5e cable. AFAIK it's far superior to bell wire, but
is there any problem I haven't thought of?

The proper cable to use is to the BT CW13308 specification. Cat5E is usually
OK because they are both twisted pair cables which is the crucial thing. You
need to start at the BT socket. Is the master socket an NTE5 or the older
Plan 1?


Peter Crosland

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:

Thanks Dave. I do have some phone wire I bought some time ago, but
it's very, very thin. I've heard mention of "ADSL compatible phone
wire". Do you know if it really makes a difference?

Only to your pocket!

I can't imagine that it would be that significant compared to the 4
miles of copper between my house and the exchange,

Precicely...

The existing wiring is surface, and I think my new stuff will be too,
and I had considered that Cat5 is a bit more visible.

It does not make that much difference really. If needs be you can get
four lines down one cat5, so you also won't need another cable if you
ever added a line.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13 Jun 2006 09:15:03 GMT someone who may be "John Carlyle-Clarke"
wrote this:-

What I want to do in this age of ADSL and DECT is simplify to a single
master socket by the PC with the phone base station & ADSL modem/router
plugged in.

Assuming you have an NTE5 master socket...

Do remember that only BT are supposed to touch the bottom half of
the master socket (and the external wiring that connects to it). As
a result it is likely to remain where it is at the moment.

From that point you can do what you like. Personally I would get a
filter from http://www.clarity.it/acatalog/ADSL_Installation.html
and put that on the master socket. From there I would wire the
filtered terminals to the telephone extension sockets and take an
unfiltered pair to a suitable socket for the ADSL router.

If I didn't have any cable I would probably get a reel of telephone
cable and use that for the extensions. If I was putting a telephone
socket beside the ADSL socket this needs two and a half pairs, say
three pairs. If my telephone cable was only two pair then I might
use Cat 5, simply for the extra pairs. Alternatively three pair
telephone cable should be fine. Avoid sharp bends and don't staple
the cable.

It all depends on what cable you have in and what is available to
you. As you have a lot of Cat 5 I would use that. Do stick to the
standard telephone colour scheme. I would use the brown pair for the
unfiltered ADSL signal, as it is not in the standard one line
telephone wiring scheme.

http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate.htm and
http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/extensions.htm have further
information.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The proper cable to use is to the BT CW13308 specification. Cat5E is
usually OK because they are both twisted pair cables which is the
crucial thing. You need to start at the BT socket. Is the master
socket an NTE5 or the older Plan 1?

CW 1308!

Peter Crosland

In message , Peter
Crosland writes

The proper cable to use is to the BT CW13308 specification. Cat5E is usually
CW1308 ??

OK because they are both twisted pair cables which is the crucial thing.

Are they? I have a reel of CW1308 that's not twisted, and when I looked
a few years back was unable to find a spec that said it should be
twisted.

--
Due to the very painful lack of quoting Google promotes, all Usenet
posts originating from Google users are now deleted unseen, this means
if you post from Google I won't see it. N.B. the preceding sig is
copyright free, feel free to copy it. == bof at bof dot me dot uk ==

bof wrote:
In message , Peter
Crosland writes

The proper cable to use is to the BT CW13308 specification. Cat5E is
usually

CW1308 ??

OK because they are both twisted pair cables which is the crucial thing.


Are they? I have a reel of CW1308 that's not twisted, and when I looked
a few years back was unable to find a spec that said it should be twisted.

Its not *as* twisted as cat5, but it is still twisted.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The proper cable to use is to the BT CW13308 specification. Cat5E is
usually

CW1308 ??#

See my correction!

OK because they are both twisted pair cables which is the crucial
thing.

Are they? I have a reel of CW1308 that's not twisted, and when I
looked a few years back was unable to find a spec that said it should be
twisted.

Its not *as* twisted as cat5, but it is still twisted.

Assuming it really is genuine CW1308 specification and not somebody passing
something else off as CW1308, it is what BT use and therefore one has to
assume it is fit for purpose! Likewise if the cable you have is genuine
Cat5e specification that will do as well. Using anything but a proper
twisted pair cable can potentially cause problems. Bell wire is definitely a
no no.

Peter Crosland

John,

Something I've done which might be interesting for you too, is to have
the adsl cable only connected to BT using the device described below in
place of your current modem/router

http://www.adslguide.org.uk/hardware...2/zoom-x5v.asp

The master DECT station plugs into the back of the Zoom device and you
have no telephone cable at all, but you do have VOIP on every handset
in your home and garden.

The handsets switch into VOIP mode at the press of a key and should the
router power fail or be switched off, then the telephone reverts to
standard BT connection mode.

It comes ready configured for a VOIP service called Global Village,
which is SIP compliant and able to talk to other SIP compliant services
at no charge, though you can reconfigure for another supplier. I use
Sipgate.

What it won't do is get you connected to non SIP compliant services
such as Skype.

Jeff





John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:
"Dave H." wrote in
:


"John Carlyle-Clarke" wrote ...

I need to remake my internal phone wiring [...] My question is
this: is there any reason I shouldn't use
Cat5e cable for this?

No problems apart from it being slightly thicker over all than
'phone wire, and a bit lumpier in appearance - if it's going to be
out of sight, no problem. I think the purple LSF variant's quite
pretty, too... for fixed wiring, make sure it's solid core, IDCs
don't take stranded reliably.

Thanks Dave. I do have some phone wire I bought some time ago, but
it's very, very thin. I've heard mention of "ADSL compatible phone
wire". Do you know if it really makes a difference?

I can't imagine that it would be that significant compared to the 4
miles of copper between my house and the exchange, but I could be
wrong.

The existing wiring is surface, and I think my new stuff will be too,
and I had considered that Cat5 is a bit more visible.

In message , John
Rumm writes
bof wrote:
In message ,
Peter Crosland writes

The proper cable to use is to the BT CW13308 specification. Cat5E is
usually
CW1308 ??

OK because they are both twisted pair cables which is the crucial
thing.
Are they? I have a reel of CW1308 that's not twisted, and when I
looked a few years back was unable to find a spec that said it should
be twisted.

Its not *as* twisted as cat5, but it is still twisted.

The reel of CW108 I have has no twists (or at least the were none
present in the 1m and then 2m sections I stripped back to check).

Is there a spec that says CW1308 must be twisted? When I looked some
years back I couldn't find one, lots of other specs for CW1308, but
couldn't find anything about twists.

--
Due to the very painful lack of quoting Google promotes, all Usenet
posts originating from Google users are now deleted unseen, this means
if you post from Google I won't see it. N.B. the preceding sig is
copyright free, feel free to copy it. == bof at bof dot me dot uk ==

"John Carlyle-Clarke" wrote in message
.. .
I need to remake my internal phone wiring - the wiring I have is old
and damaged, and also very byzantine with redundant junction boxen and
sockets (I think there used to be two or more lines incoming) and
extension cables running over almost every architrave in the house.

What I want to do in this age of ADSL and DECT is simplify to a single
master socket by the PC with the phone base station & ADSL modem/router
plugged in.

If you intend moving your master socket, you might want to think twice about
using cable that was obviously not provided by BT.

uk.telecom might be a better ng.

--

Michael Chare

wrote in
oups.com:


John,

Something I've done which might be interesting for you too, is to
have the adsl cable only connected to BT using the device
described below in place of your current modem/router

http://www.adslguide.org.uk/hardware...2/zoom-x5v.asp

The master DECT station plugs into the back of the Zoom device and
you have no telephone cable at all, but you do have VOIP on every
handset in your home and garden.

The handsets switch into VOIP mode at the press of a key and
should the router power fail or be switched off, then the
telephone reverts to standard BT connection mode.

It comes ready configured for a VOIP service called Global
Village, which is SIP compliant and able to talk to other SIP
compliant services at no charge, though you can reconfigure for
another supplier. I use Sipgate.

What it won't do is get you connected to non SIP compliant
services such as Skype.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff -

I work from home, and use Skype for all business calls - Skype to Skype
where possible, or Skype Out where not, to make it easier to itemise.
I also use Skype In to keep business calls separate completely.

I use one of these at the moment:

http://www.yealink.com/SkypeMate/prodetail_b2k.htm

The DECT base station is connected to this device. Works pretty well,
and the same deal.. press "*" to switch to Skype.

Nice thinking though - thanks for the suggestion.

bof wrote:

Is there a spec that says CW1308 must be twisted?

Yes, CW 1308 _is_ the BT specification.

Go to the RS web site (http://rswww.com) and do a simple search for
"cw1308", which will bring up a list of all the '1308 cables they sell.
Click on the PDF icon against any product and you can download a copy
of the actual BT spec. - CW 1308 Issue 8. Note the requirements for lay
length (section 4.2) and reference to twists in section 5.

--
Andy

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:
I need to remake my internal phone wiring - the wiring I have is old
and damaged, and also very byzantine with redundant junction boxen and
sockets (I think there used to be two or more lines incoming) and
extension cables running over almost every architrave in the house.

What I want to do in this age of ADSL and DECT is simplify to a single
master socket by the PC with the phone base station & ADSL modem/router
plugged in.

I understand the connections well enough - I'm going to tear everything
out from the initial junction box onwards and start again. My question
is this: is there any reason I shouldn't use Cat5e cable for this?

None at all.

In message , Andy Wade
writes
bof wrote:

Is there a spec that says CW1308 must be twisted?

Yes, CW 1308 _is_ the BT specification.

Go to the RS web site (http://rswww.com) and do a simple search for
"cw1308", which will bring up a list of all the '1308 cables they sell.
Click on the PDF icon against any product and you can download a copy
of the actual BT spec. - CW 1308 Issue 8. Note the requirements for
lay length (section 4.2) and reference to twists in section 5.

Thanks, looks like I've got a non conforming spool then, if there is any
twisting it's in many metres lay length no way it's 100mm or less. It
works fine for phone, but I found the problem when I used it to wire
some short (5m) runs of 100baseT, which I was expecting to work.

To get back to the original post I now use Cat5e for phone and data
wiring.

--
Due to the very painful lack of quoting Google promotes, all Usenet
posts originating from Google users are now deleted unseen, this means
if you post from Google I won't see it. N.B. the preceding sig is
copyright free, feel free to copy it. == bof at bof dot me dot uk ==

David Hansen wrote:

cable and use that for the extensions. If I was putting a telephone
socket beside the ADSL socket this needs two and a half pairs, say
three pairs. If my telephone cable was only two pair then I might
use Cat 5, simply for the extra pairs. Alternatively three pair
telephone cable should be fine. Avoid sharp bends and don't staple
the cable.

Do you mean all these pairs are needed just for the phone, or something
else? The UK phone system uses 3 wires, with a lot of equipment working
on only 2 wires. If desired its elementary to run a 2 wire system and
add a capacitor at the end to give a standard 3 wire outlet.

NT

On 14 Jun 2006 03:15:47 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

cable and use that for the extensions. If I was putting a telephone
socket beside the ADSL socket this needs two and a half pairs,

Do you mean all these pairs are needed just for the phone, or something
else?

My mistake, one and a half pairs.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"John Carlyle-Clarke" wrote in
:

I need to remake my internal phone wiring - the wiring I have is
old and damaged, and also very byzantine with redundant junction
boxen and sockets (I think there used to be two or more lines
incoming) and extension cables running over almost every
architrave in the house.


Thanks for all the feedback. I wanted to post a diagram of my wiring
for comment, but I can't find a decent free program to draw one, so
I'll describe it briefly if I may.

The drop wire comes down to the house, into an old GPO 4 terminal
junction box. The incoming cable is four core (Black + Brown are the
current A and B, and White and Orange used to be the second line).
From there a 4 core cable goes immediately out of the house, round
through the porch, back in and then over some walls to an 8-terminal
GPO junction. This cable is badly damaged.

From this, standard BT extension wires take the current line to two old
style sockets, one of which is the old style master (Plan 1).

Another standard cable carries the current line plus the now
disconnected second line around the room to another set of wallboxes.
Here there is a double new style socket for the current line, plus a
defunct NTE5 for the second line.

From there, one of those customer fitted plug-in extensions goes round
to the PC. This is the only socket in use.

What I'd like to end up with is just the new NTE5, plus the Solwise
ADSL faceplace I have to go on it, next to the PC. As I say, I know
how to wire this up. All other cables and junctions (apart from the
first GPO one) can come out.

Am I likely to get in trouble with BT for moving and changing the
master socket? Would I be better to use the correct BT cable instead
of Cat5e to make it look proper, as it were?

On 17 Jun 2006 20:01:12 GMT, John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:

Am I likely to get in trouble with BT for moving and changing the
master socket?

Probably not but BT do have records of lines that have not been converted
to NTE5. Of course you could just say they have their records crossed
between the defunct line and the current one.

Would I be better to use the correct BT cable instead of Cat5e to make
it look proper, as it were?

Yes, CW1308 is cheap and if strip all the old crap out back to that first
box and put CW1308 in neatly it'll probably do wonders for your ADSL
speed... (mainly due to the removal of the crap rather than cable type).
It'll also look genuine to any BT bod that visits.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:

It'll also look genuine to any BT bod that visits.

As long as you staple it to the wall and don't use cable clips ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 03:23:35 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

As long as you staple it to the wall and don't use cable clips ;-)

True enough, I have a proper cable stapler so tend to forget that. Clips
look ugly and are slow.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:

"John Carlyle-Clarke" wrote in
:


I need to remake my internal phone wiring - the wiring I have is
old and damaged, and also very byzantine with redundant junction
boxen and sockets (I think there used to be two or more lines
incoming) and extension cables running over almost every
architrave in the house.



Thanks for all the feedback. I wanted to post a diagram of my wiring
for comment, but I can't find a decent free program to draw one, so
I'll describe it briefly if I may.

The drop wire comes down to the house, into an old GPO 4 terminal
junction box. The incoming cable is four core (Black + Brown are the
current A and B, and White and Orange used to be the second line).
From there a 4 core cable goes immediately out of the house, round
through the porch, back in and then over some walls to an 8-terminal
GPO junction. This cable is badly damaged.

From this, standard BT extension wires take the current line to two old
style sockets, one of which is the old style master (Plan 1).

Another standard cable carries the current line plus the now
disconnected second line around the room to another set of wallboxes.
Here there is a double new style socket for the current line, plus a
defunct NTE5 for the second line.

From there, one of those customer fitted plug-in extensions goes round
to the PC. This is the only socket in use.

What I'd like to end up with is just the new NTE5, plus the Solwise
ADSL faceplace I have to go on it, next to the PC. As I say, I know
how to wire this up. All other cables and junctions (apart from the
first GPO one) can come out.

Am I likely to get in trouble with BT for moving and changing the
master socket? Would I be better to use the correct BT cable instead
of Cat5e to make it look proper, as it were?
I put an adaptor on our master socket and patched it into my cat5e
structured cabling. I can patch the phone through to any room. I've
currently got it patched through to the loft where my PC is and I use a
splitter to connect the phone and the broadband router. Both are
wireless so I can use other phones /PCs throughout the house with no
extra wiring required.

ChrisJ

ChrisJ wrote in
:

I put an adaptor on our master socket and patched it into my cat5e
structured cabling.

Structured cabling is the ideal solution, I agree, but I can't really
justify the expense of retrofitting it to a house when I don't need
audio/video distribution, and I have DECT phones and wireless
networking is cheap.

I *love* structured cabling, and I'd fit it to any new house or
renovation.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.com:

Yes, CW1308 is cheap...

Where can I buy it? B&Q ? What about the staples?

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:


Am I likely to get in trouble with BT for moving and changing the
master socket? Would I be better to use the correct BT cable instead
of Cat5e to make it look proper, as it were?

No. Not really. The situations is roughly

- BT reserve the right to charge you to do it properly (and for
consequential damage if e.g. you stuff 5KV up their phone wires and
wreck the exchange), if there is a fault and its due to non standard
stuff having been bodged in.

- On the ground, the average BT engineer is a nice bloke, and, if
supplied with coffee tea and biscuits and intelligent discussion of the
World Cup, won't bat an eyelid at any installation that palpably works
and is well put together.

I had an incoming overhead, rewired by ME, to a 4 screw junction box and
some cat 5 going from there to a pair of masters and thence to a PABX
and router.

When a tipper lorry took out the overhead, they replaced it more or less
as was, apart from using a BT proper junction box to connect into my CAT
5..;-)

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.com:


Yes, CW1308 is cheap...


Where can I buy it? B&Q ? What about the staples?

The cable, anywhere... CPC will do you a 100m roll for about £11.

For the stapler (and I agree with Dave, *much* faster and neater than
cable clips), try toolstation:

http://www.toolstation.com/?r=p&feature=57437

(that will do cat5 and telephone style cable)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18 Jun 2006 10:23:56 GMT, John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:

Yes, CW1308 is cheap...

Where can I buy it? B&Q ?

Yep. Shouldn't pay more than £15 for 100m of 3 pair and even that would
be expensive.

What about the staples?

They might be harder to get hold of, though any decent electrical
wholesaler should have something suitable and the gun of course.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The Natural Philosopher wrote in
:

- On the ground, the average BT engineer is a nice bloke, and, if
supplied with coffee tea and biscuits and intelligent discussion
of the World Cup, won't bat an eyelid at any installation that
palpably works and is well put together.

That has been my experience too, with them even bending the rules about
what is internal and what is external so as not to have BT charge me.
Most of them are ex-BT people working on a contract anyway, it seems,
so it's all the same to them.